Half of the idea groups are suboptimal

[cuendillar]

Even espionage isn't half bad. Unless you have Deus Vult (requires full Religion) or Imperialism (late game) casus belli, or expand extremely fast, it's quite competitive with Admin. The +33% spy network and -25% claim cost means that you get claims twice as fast. Claims mean no diplo cost to take them and -10% RCC, as well as the extra diplomat to do that nonstop. It's still a weaker discount than Admins -25%RCC but not to be scoffed at.

Unless you're playing with the most Admin-favouring playstyle (taking loans to buy mercs for rapid conquest), Admin doesn't have much apart from RCC. Espionage has better ideas elsewhere and costs diplo instead of admin, which is another point in its favour.

Not saying it's among the strongest groups, but it seems far better than its reputation to me.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Ofcourse, this might be done with exploration alone, but expansion speed up things significantly, especially in the early race for colonialism spawn.

You can reveal Alaska with exploration 3 + diplomatic technology 3 from Hokkaido (Ainu's position), already meeting the requirement for spawning colonialism. Expansion will not speed this up meaningfully, the only very significant speed factor is more range (likely DIP 7) so you're not limited to exactly one province NE of Kamchatka to cross (and you're likely conquering Siberian councils to get there).

I'm uncertain why you feel vassal feeding isn't viable. The normal path for these nations is exploration --> administrative or humanist. All 3 are a colony away from being able to fabricate additional claims. Expansion must compete directly with cheaper land taken in Indonesia, military groups, or superior groups for cash. It does not compete well on money or development acquisition rate, so I'm not sure why expansion is attractive to these positions.

Exploration gives you 2 colonists, so you can go in both directions. Expansion will not get you a CN much faster than tagging a few natives in California or taking Mexican land.

economic and trade both let you buy level 5 advisors faster, and refund their points fairly quickly because of that.

Trade is not competitive in this regard compared to quantity or especially innovative, but none of these are bottom tier groups. Economic should be a reasonably common pick in MP even due to less total expansion rate + it has a discipline policy. Trade less so because of the priority placed on military, but as I pointed out earlier in the thread a part of an alliance might work it in somewhere.

 

[Robert de Bruce]

Hm, I had in mind (must been earlier version?), Colonialism spawns in nations with a colonial nation. If there's none by 1500, then it spawns in a country with a colony in Americas. Didn't notice the changes until now. This makes my argument invalid, agreed. I have to admit, I don't understand then several of my games when I didn't bother about exploration and Colonialism didn't spawn until 1510-1515. Is the AI that lazy even at exploring, even Portugal?

Vassal feeding with Korea or Japan is ok, with Ming I don't know if it's better to get them as vassals and direct land or tributaries for a while. Guess as long as all reforms aren't done, tributaries are better.

 

[Viktor Vaughn]

I believe Colonialism spawns in an old world country that has discovered the new world. But if for example it spawns in Europe and Japan has discovered the new world, but no colonial nations, they won't get any institution growth until a neighbouring province gets it. Could be wrong though

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Hm, I had in mind (must been earlier version?), Colonialism spawns in nations with a colonial nation. If there's none by 1500, then it spawns in a country with a colony in Americas. Didn't notice the changes until now. This makes my argument invalid, agreed. I have to admit, I don't understand then several of my games when I didn't bother about exploration and Colonialism didn't spawn until 1510-1515. Is the AI that lazy even at exploring, even Portugal?

Vassal feeding with Korea or Japan is ok, with Ming I don't know if it's better to get them as vassals and direct land or tributaries for a while. Guess as long as all reforms aren't done, tributaries are better.

Colonialism can spawn if you see a new world province and have quest for the new world.

Colonialism spreads only from adjacent provinces with the institution or in coastal provinces of a CN overlord (new world CNs only, not Australia). Therefore your best play to rush it as Japan is to get DIP 7 while conquering a Siberian council and 2-hopping your way to just taking Mexico for the trade/treasure fleets.

These conditions are distinct! AFAIK always the case since institutions were implemented.

The spawn condition does not guarantee that it will happen, it's a yearly chance. Also, the AI does derp. A lot. It really can fail to discover the Americas sometimes, which is why playing a native is such junk in new patches. Since tech 7 stops being ahead of years ~1480 this isn't a big reach, and expansion's not getting you there significantly faster than colony with administrative 2 --> conquer native council and get more coring range in 27 months --> colony again while manually exploring with conquistador.

 

[Cataphract887]

The +33% spy network and -25% claim cost means that you get claims twice as fast

Micromanage claims on every single province your planning on taking...that sounds fun.

 

[Viktor Vaughn]

it does get you a 10% discount on coring cost, which isn't bad at all.

 

[Cataphract887]

it does get you a 10% discount on coring cost, which isn't bad at all.

That strictly limits you to border provinces you can touch, and is very inflexible.

 

[Casko]

I don't really understand all the hate Espionage gets nowdays, its quite decent idea group, after all it gives you decent bonus here and there, all it might need could be for it to give you "+1 relations limit" in my honest opinion, + the +33% Spy detection chance really reduces the annoyance of the AI spamming things like "Sow Discontent" or "Agitate for Liberty" onto you all the time.
+ the -10% Liberty desire helps you keeping some of the more massive colonial nations in their place without you needing to babysit them too often. (even if the AI tends to be simply flooded by dept...)

Also I kinda want to ask, but do People take Humanist that often in single player? or am I just a weirdo for keeping humanist only for certain nations? if I colonize I'd much rather take expansion rather than humanist for those kind of nations as well.

 

[bbqftw]

That strictly limits you to border provinces you can touch, and is very inflexible.

And then there are things like Feudal Theocracy formable Persia which lets your instant slap a claim on every bordering province...

 

[Novacat]

My thoughts on the various NIs.

Quantity/Quality/Offensive/Defensive - No matter what, these will make up your land military picks. The only difference is which order you pick them up in, and largely dependent on what you need at the time. Defensive is a common first pick, because attrition is a massive early game troop killer and this makes you both take less attrition, and the enemy take attrition when attacking you. Offensive gives you discipline and buffs up your generals atac traits, Quantity lets you field a much larger army, as well as giving you a lot more manpower, Quality gives both discipline and infantry, cavalry, and artillery combat bonuses, as well as some combat bonuses to ships.

Aristocratic - Not a bad idea group... but its biggest downside is that it has to compete with the above four. If it was dip or adm, I can see it being picked a lot more.

Plutocratic - Good... but, same issue as Aristocratic, and on top of that is tied to a non-meta government form (republics)

Naval - Ehhh... if you want ships, go Martime/Quality, if you still want ships, maybe? Seems like overkill in most situations.

Administrative - Some people pick it for the one decent trick it can do, core creation cost, others pick it for the mercenary bonuses, I care for neither (Note: Core creation is awesome... just not worth an entire idea group), so I usually give this idea group a pass.

Economic - Money is used for a lot of things, and this gets you more of it. A lot more. The development cost reduction also means it saves you monarch points, too.

Expansion - This idea group reeks with mediocrity, it does a little bit of everything, but does not do it very well. If it had a single awesome bonus, it would be a great pick, but the problem is that it is so mediocre that it lacks anything to draw you into it.

Humanist/Religious - You must have one of these. Religious if you plan on purging the heretics and heathens, Humanist if you plan on co-existing. I recommend religious in most cases, unless you have a particular country or religion that is built for co-existing. Rule of thumb is that if you can get heathen tolerance from elsewhere, go Humanist, otherwise, go Religious.

Innovative - Like expansion in that it has a lot of mediocre but helpful bonuses, but unlike expansion, it has a few standout bonuses that make it worth picking. Monthly War Exhaustion, Leaders without Upkeep, and Technology cost. -25% Advisor cost is a lot more useful now that we have level 5 advisors.

Diplomatic - Great for diplomacy-heavy runs. Its main feature over Influence is that it gets +1 diplomat and loses less stab to certain actions like breaking alliance.

Espionage - This is a lot better than I remember it, but it went from terrible to just mediocre, maybe slightly below Expansion in value, without any decent stand-out bonuses.

Exploration - If you are colonizing, you need this, if not, you will give it a pass. I have toyed with the idea of taking this for the sole purpose of questing in the new world for one of those sweet permanent modifiers... but that is a huge investment (800 dip and 1 slot being dead weight for a good chunk of the game) for something that will probably not pay off.

Maritime - If you are a naval power.

Trade - The question you need to ask yourself is, how many trade nodes are you planning to contest? If it is more than 3-5 (especially if you are blobbing hard), then you want this. If not, then you probably will give it a pass, as the main draw from this is the +3 merchants, but those merchants are only good if you use them.

Influence - Similar to Diplomacy, except more heavy on vassals. There is also a 20% AE reduction that is really useful.

 

[Vicodin_Addict]

I don't even understand if you pick Quantity over Aristocratic these days as a player (unless you don't have a big manpower and land like Portugal or any Italian OPM), the only upside of taking Quantity IMO is the manpower recovery speed and the increased FL (or not if you choose the pure profesionalism path) on top of cheaper MIL Tech.

- +33% to +50% manpower is relatively not that big as a gap.
- +0,025 autonomy decay is good for your economy, especially in the early games when you usually raising the autonomy in newly conquered land. AND IN THE AGE OF ABSOLUTISM THIS FURTHER ADDS +0,10 Absolutism/year.
- Aristo offers you +10% CCA and +1 siege pip ability as a bonus which can be crucial in the even war. Pairs well with offensive, which is my current ideas as Bengal - Hindustan.
- +1 diplomat pairs well with Influence/Diplomatic, to encourage nation out of coalition and fabricating claims. And extra general to lead your army.
- With the Absolutism mechanic, I don't even bother to take Quality unless I have a big naval that can contest the Brits on the sea. Because with 100 absolutism I get the extra discipline that I want.

Well it's my opinion though, I used to take Quantity in the past but now Aristo is must pick for me with the added benefit in general rather than adding more size to your paper armies

Although I remembered the horror of that crazy +25% coring cost on us in Aristo idea branch, which pairs well with Berber traditions because no one crazy enough to gobble up +75% increased coring cost.

 

[Less2]

I don't even understand if you pick Quantity over Aristocratic these days as a player (unless you don't have a big manpower and land like Portugal or any Italian OPM), the only upside of taking Quantity IMO is the manpower recovery speed and the increased FL (or not if you choose the pure profesionalism path) on top of cheaper MIL Tech.

Force limit is pretty important. 100% professionalism is easy, I reached the cap easily by 1550s or so even at my max merc forcelimit in my Oda/Japan game just dumping MIL into generals. At that point the only way to get more mercs is +available mercs and +force limit, Quantity improves both.

Also -10% regiment cost and -10% maintenance means all regiments including Mercs are (almost) -20% in maintenance, which is fairly huge amount of cash.

 

[gia257]

Even espionage isn't half bad. Unless you have Deus Vult (requires full Religion) or Imperialism (late game) casus belli, or expand extremely fast, it's quite competitive with Admin. The +33% spy network and -25% claim cost means that you get claims twice as fast. Claims mean no diplo cost to take them and -10% RCC, as well as the extra diplomat to do that nonstop. It's still a weaker discount than Admins -25%RCC but not to be scoffed at.

Unless you're playing with the most Admin-favouring playstyle (taking loans to buy mercs for rapid conquest), Admin doesn't have much apart from RCC. Espionage has better ideas elsewhere and costs diplo instead of admin, which is another point in its favour.

Not saying it's among the strongest groups, but it seems far better than its reputation to me.

the 10% loyalism also allows to have more claims (on your vassals) to feed to them, if it had faster diplomats it would be golden (to use threaten war, which needs claims)

 

[Coffer]

Many of the posts in this thread, including the op, seem to be of the opinion that ideas can only be optimal (or good) for WC/extreme blobbing, otherwise they are worthless.

That's what happens when the forums are overly populated with people who only do WCs anymore (as many of the others either lurk or don't bother in the first place), which ultimately directly influences Paradox's approach to the game going forward. It goes hand in hand with the fact that it's an easy, concrete goal that can be done and repeated ad infinitum (similar to doing repeated time trial laps in a racing game, or speedrunning in general, and the skill requirement for both of those caps out very quickly once it turns into a combination of mindless repetition and exploiting unintended behavior) in a game that struggles to have much in the way of goals at all right now.

 

[bly08]

That's what happens when the forums are overly populated with people who only do WCs anymore (as many of the others either lurk or don't bother in the first place), which ultimately directly influences Paradox's approach to the game going forward. It goes hand in hand with the fact that it's an easy, concrete goal that can be done and repeated ad infinitum (similar to doing repeated time trial laps in a racing game, or speedrunning in general, and the skill requirement for both of those caps out very quickly once it turns into a combination of mindless repetition and exploiting unintended behavior) in a game that struggles to have much in the way of goals at all right now.

On the contrary, it seems like the forum is populated by those who for some reason think WCs are easy and repeatedly ask for blobbing nerfs. You're straight up talking nonsense if you think there's a "cap" on skill requirement for WCs.

This is from the thread you made a month ago:

Now I'm by no means a veteran player or honestly any good at all - I've barely put any hours into the game and I've not had the easiest time adapting to it, being the first game of its kind that I've played - the furthest I've gotten is about 1517 where, as Lubeck, I've taken Saxe-Lauenburg, Mecklenburg, much of Pomerania, Danzig and the two Danish provinces from ending the Sound Toll even with Sweden still being loyal to them and am perfectly stable (a save I'm planning to continue later), so keep that in mind because there are still quite a few mechanics that I don't know or understand well yet. I've had a few decent starts here and there as various nations, but one that I've always come back to time and again to try and survive with is Wallachia.

You had never played a game past 1517 but yet somehow think WCs are easy. This kind of ignorant shit needs to stop.

 

[gia257]

aristocracy...

* 0.025 autonomy, you dont want this, your first move during age of absolutism is get as much absol from lowering autonomy as possible, by getting passive reduction you null some provinces from doing this, meaning you will hit court and country late
* 0.1 yealy absol, trash, ten years for 1 absol, if it worked since 1444 (giving you efficiency before the age) then it would be interesting, wouldnt be great mind you its what, 5% efficiency if taken as first idea?), but at least something

Its draws is the autonomy on MP, not sp, cavalry if a cavalry nation (that also means those two ideas are wasted if you dont match the requirements), mil tech cost, and everything from the manpower to the end

 

[Vicodin_Addict]

* 0.025 autonomy, you dont want this, your first move during age of absolutism is get as much absol from lowering autonomy as possible, by getting passive reduction you null some provinces from doing this, meaning you will hit court and country late
* 0.1 yealy absol, trash, ten years for 1 absol, if it worked since 1444 (giving you efficiency before the age) then it would be interesting, wouldnt be great mind you its what, 5% efficiency if taken as first idea?), but at least something

Its draws is the autonomy on MP, not sp, cavalry if a cavalry nation (that also means those two ideas are wasted if you dont match the requirements), mil tech cost, and everything from the manpower to the end

Nah, I took Aristo as 2nd ideas after Influence and then paired it with economic on 3rd ideas for fast autonomy decay, and then activate the policies for +10% tax and 0,5 legitimacy. Ducat is never the issue and going above FL doesn't even flinch my strong economic stature for a bit. Conquest might be a little thwarted with this set, but I have done WC before, why do I have to set the same path everytime I play a campaign?

I might be a little late in taking C&C disaster (if you count 1645 as late, but anyway...), and as absolutism mechanic can be abused by accepting Particularist rebel demand and then manually reduce autonomy while taking Humanism to reduce the province negative malus, I don't see this being a problem since reduced autonomy helped your nation's economy at the early stage of the game.

 

[Coffer]

You had never played a game past 1517 but yet somehow think WCs are easy. This kind of ignorant shit needs to stop.

You may find this shocking knowing the low quality of your posts and incessant shitposting, but it's been a month. I've since played the game significantly more and done my first WC with relative ease, as well as read up on what most people do in their runs. It's absolutely no different from the cases I mentioned earlier (speedrunning, time trial).

On the contrary, it seems like the forum is populated by those who for some reason think WCs are easy and repeatedly ask for blobbing nerfs. You're straight up talking nonsense if you think there's a "cap" on skill requirement for WCs.

Fitting for someone who literally only plays for that and feels the need to defend themselves on it to the point where they're calling out devs when they fix their little exploits. I've said it before and I'll say it again - your ego is through the roof and utterly unwarranted for someone who has seemingly nothing going for them besides having something to brag about through these WCs. And yes, they're easy, which is why the forums are so populated with your ilk - everyone does them since there's little more to the game besides that right now, partly thanks to Paradox constantly making changes that directly or indirectly cater to that without actually damaging it every once in a while (besides rightly fixing exploits).

 

[bly08]

but it's been a month. I've since played the game significantly more and done my first WC with relative ease

lol...