Haixi - Qing help

[Sandcat4444]

The year is 1478, my vassals are Korchin, Yeren and Buryatia. I have annexed Jianzhou and I will soon annex Yeren.

My question is: What should i do from here if I wish to form Manchu? also, should i reform my government before I form Manchu, or should I attack Ming before reforming my government?

 

[unmerged(484926)]

Forming Manchu reforms your government for free.

 

[Sandcat4444]

But it doesn't change my units or my tech group.

 

[anomalacaris]

You get new government when you change to Manchu but will remain horde tech and units.
Forming Qing change your tech and units though. So do that asap!
If you are fast enough you can do it when Ming is mil tech 3-4 and you still have unit advantage.

 

[Denkt]

You get new government when you change to Manchu but will remain horde tech and units.
Forming Qing change your tech and units though. So do that asap!
If you are fast enough you can do it when Ming is mil tech 3-4 and you still have unit advantage.

You got pretty much equal infantry before tech 9 and an advantage before tech 4.
For cav you got advantage before tech 6 and equal before tech 10.

So you should be able to fight with nomad units into early 1500s.

 

[haltabush]

I played Yeren and I started killing Ming when I had a 0.5 tactic advantage on them, with about 10 or 20K less troops. It went soooo smoothly, I guess you can do it without the tech advantage, they have less morale and less discipline (at least when they don't have the temple faction).
Also when you form Qing, don't do the same mistake as I did: I waited for the truce to finish but I had a 14 year regency... Hence I couldn't my claims! I think you should wait for your cores to finish, truce break, annex some Shun & release, truce break again, return core & annex some Zhou, etc. Don't take provinces for yourself while you're truce breaking as you won't be able to core it.

 

[Sandcat4444]

Will i lose the combat bonuses on plains if I form Manchu?

 

[Denkt]

I think the bonus is tied to the goverment so you will lose it if you change your goverment.

 

[Sandcat4444]

Alright, thanks for all the help guys!

 

[KungDenzel]

Dont form Manchu before you have the provinces to form Qing right after or you will loose all the benefits of being a horde while retaining the units and tech malus. I fought ming directly when I got to 8 miltech while they where at 6, meaning I got 2 tactics levels above them and smashed them even though I was outnumbered 6:1. Would have been even easier if I didnt form Manchu first :/ can fund so many mercs with horde double looting on ming

 

[Sandcat4444]

I tried without forming Manchu, i was one level ahead in MIL tech. I got completely beaten.

 

[00CloughRN]

Dont form Manchu before you have the provinces to form Qing right after or you will loose all the benefits of being a horde while retaining the units and tech malus. I fought ming directly when I got to 8 miltech while they where at 6, meaning I got 2 tactics levels above them and smashed them even though I was outnumbered 6:1. Would have been even easier if I didnt form Manchu first :/ can fund so many mercs with horde double looting on ming

I disagree, you should form Manchu so you get the cores in inner manchuria.

The way I beat Ming was to antagonise them when I was around tech 7 to their tech 5 giving a huge tactics advantage and cannons on my side, they declared war which caused Korea to honour the call due to it being a defensive war. I hung around near Korea such that Ming would attack across the river and Korea would come and support. After I beaten a few of the Ming armies (at ~10 WS a pop), I push into Ming proper dropped a couple of unit in Beijing then proceeded to romp around squashing Ming armies and looting. Once the siege of Beijing had finished I had 40WS from battles + ~15WS from still having the claim they hadn't seized, then a few WS from occupation meant I was able to take all my cores and Beijing from Ming. Then it was just a case of claiming the last province I needed from Oirat. Took me less than 100 years in all.

I'm not sure how lucky I was with Korea not flipping to hostile and Ming declaring when they did, but I found the whole thing pretty easy. The hardest bit was getting the province from Oirat, I forgot I had no manpower and declared war immediatly after Ming meaning things got a bit dicey.

 

[Kosschaser]

What I did, just yesterday - After forming Manchu, you will need 4 more provinces from Ming and 1 more from Oirats to actually form Qing. I was allied Ming all the game, and used them to conquer that very province from Oirats, but I didn't just do that, but continued watching how mongols and chineese massacre each other, and only after that concluded peace. The next day after peace I broke the alliance and declared war to Ming afterwards. That being said, I was 2 military techs ahead and could use cannons, so I trained 3 regiments of mercs and ordered them to siege Beijing, scorched all adjancted land and simply guarded those besiegers. Maximum what Ming could put against me - 20k of soldiers, mostly mercenaries. I found this the easiest tactic - abuse Ming to the end, exhaust them in your wars, and only then attack.

 

[anomalacaris]

One thing not too hard to pull of is to provoke a fight between Oirat and Ming (e.g. ally Ming), watch Ming troop die in waves, and then attack.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You get new government when you change to Manchu but will remain horde tech and units.
Forming Qing change your tech and units though. So do that asap!
If you are fast enough you can do it when Ming is mil tech 3-4 and you still have unit advantage.

Chinese tech isn't really better than Nomad in terms of units until around 9-10 range in military. IMO the best play is to stay a horde until you can form Qing, then immediately go Manchu --> Qing. This way you can still get the 2x loot money from Ming (which lines the pockets a ton) and still roll with a superiority CB on them to fish out war score quickly.

Nomad tech with horde government techs faster than Chinese with regular monarchy in most cases with no child can be khan.

As for Ming itself, it's stronger than before but nothing strong unit control, tactics advantage, and scorched earth can't handle.

 

[KungDenzel]

I disagree, you should form Manchu so you get the cores in inner manchuria.

The way I beat Ming was to antagonise them when I was around tech 7 to their tech 5 giving a huge tactics advantage and cannons on my side, they declared war which caused Korea to honour the call due to it being a defensive war. I hung around near Korea such that Ming would attack across the river and Korea would come and support. After I beaten a few of the Ming armies (at ~10 WS a pop), I push into Ming proper dropped a couple of unit in Beijing then proceeded to romp around squashing Ming armies and looting. Once the siege of Beijing had finished I had 40WS from battles + ~15WS from still having the claim they hadn't seized, then a few WS from occupation meant I was able to take all my cores and Beijing from Ming. Then it was just a case of claiming the last province I needed from Oirat. Took me less than 100 years in all.

I'm not sure how lucky I was with Korea not flipping to hostile and Ming declaring when they did, but I found the whole thing pretty easy. The hardest bit was getting the province from Oirat, I forgot I had no manpower and declared war immediatly after Ming meaning things got a bit dicey.

Well I chain wared and vassalized both the other Jurchen tribes immediatly from day 0, then korchin and gave their lands to my vassals, then buryatia so all the inner manchuria cores were already mine at that time

 

[korrz]

Don't worry about reforming your government, just form Manchu and then as soon as you are a few techs ahead of Ming in military, attack them and you can form Qing to upgrade your units/tech.

I was able to defeat Ming with 22k troops total v.s. their 60k troops just with a 2 tech advantage. They are very much a paper tiger when it comes to military strength

 

[00CloughRN]

Well I chain wared and vassalized both the other Jurchen tribes immediatly from day 0, then korchin and gave their lands to my vassals, then buryatia so all the inner manchuria cores were already mine at that time

You're forgetting Andong, Gaizhou, Shenyang and Ningyuan are all part of Inner Manchuria (so you get cores when forming Manchu) and held by Ming in 1444. And that's the point, they are much easier to take as you don't need to siege them.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You're forgetting Andong, Gaizhou, Shenyang and Ningyuan are all part of Inner Manchuria (so you get cores when forming Manchu) and held by Ming in 1444. And that's the point, they are much easier to take as you don't need to siege them.

That's nice, but not enough to offset markedly better rulers (horde government) and double money from looting Ming. Even last patch when Ming had much less tax you could loot 1000's of ducts off them in a single war as a horde (you can actually see that in my Mongolia run; I was losing 10 ducats/month from maintenance but making money overall due to the looting). A couple cores are not enough to make losing horde government favorable in this context. Once we're talking about opportunity cost like additional ticking -LA from government type (admin monarchy and above or republics), much better units, or westernization then switching out is better, but it's hard to believe that a few cores is worth dumping horde government type so early.

 

[KungDenzel]

You're forgetting Andong, Gaizhou, Shenyang and Ningyuan are all part of Inner Manchuria (so you get cores when forming Manchu) and held by Ming in 1444. And that's the point, they are much easier to take as you don't need to siege them.

For all the reasons TheMeInTeam stated I regret forming Manchu before having the nessecary provinces for Qing, it was still easy but it annoyed me greatly to loose all those goodies for so little.