Hacking the TBL files

[unmerged(5110)]

Let me at this point throw a significant bucket of reality-cold water into the faces of those who want a utility that will allow massive changes to the map (or random maps).

It is likely that anything more than minor edits will involve very intensive efforts by anyone making a mod. You are going to have to know what you want the map to look like, you are going to have to decide how to make such a map fit the confines of the game (e.g.: not exceeding the maximum allowed provinces), you are going to have to do the editing (which I do not get the opinion from what I have seen is going to be a "snap"), AND you are going to have to overcome any difficulties along the way.

There will be those with the perseverance; there will be many without it.

I do realize that...

but "A journey of a miles begins with a single step", no?

 

[ZhugeKongming]

It is likely that anything more than minor edits will involve very intensive efforts by anyone making a mod. You are going to have to know what you want the map to look like, you are going to have to decide how to make such a map fit the confines of the game (e.g.: not exceeding the maximum allowed provinces), you are going to have to do the editing (which I do not get the opinion from what I have seen is going to be a "snap"), AND you are going to have to overcome any difficulties along the way.

There will be those with the perseverance; there will be many without it.

It's already that way as far as modding the game goes, no?

 

[Inferis]

I'm currently working on a full blown editor. This will take some time however, as there are a lot of interconnected things. I'd also like the program to be intuitive, so I'm carefully building it step by step. It's hard to tell when I'll have something robust enough to release it.

But DSYoungEsq is right... Creating a new map is quite a feat... The map measures 18944x7192 pixels. That's A LOT of pixels. I'm not even sure if the game runs fine with fewer than 1614 provinces. I might, but it also might not.

So yeah, you can start planning and creating thread on maps, as it is certainly feasible to alter the map image. You just don't know WHEN you'll be able to do it.

 

[WiSK]

Inferis, could you answer my one little question in post #850 please? I have almost all the code in place for replacing the shading data of an arbitary-sized area with the contents of a bitmap (including the province descriptors aka IDList). Only thing unfinished is the method for encoding a block. So I need to know: why left-right, top-bottom?

 

[unmerged(5110)]

I'm currently working on a full blown editor. This will take some time however, as there are a lot of interconnected things. I'd also like the program to be intuitive, so I'm carefully building it step by step. It's hard to tell when I'll have something robust enough to release it.

But DSYoungEsq is right... Creating a new map is quite a feat... The map measures 18944x7192 pixels. That's A LOT of pixels. I'm not even sure if the game runs fine with fewer than 1614 provinces. I might, but it also might not.

So yeah, you can start planning and creating thread on maps, as it is certainly feasible to alter the map image. You just don't know WHEN you'll be able to do it.

Cool ....

It's awesome that your programming some interfaces features there...
But all I think I really need is a command line thing where I could do something like:

InferisesCoolProgram.exe -export Output.psd

and then edit the Output.psd to what i want, and then run

InferisesCoolProgram.exe -import MyNewMap.psd

And it would generate all the lightmap files, and adjacent.tbl

Would that be possible? *looks hopeful*

In the most respectful way possible, of course

 

[Summoner]

Cool ....

It's awesome that your programming some interfaces features there...
But all I think I really need is a command line thing where I could do something like:

InferisesCoolProgram.exe -export Output.psd

and then edit the Output.psd to what i want, and then run

InferisesCoolProgram.exe -import MyNewMap.psd

And it would generate all the lightmap files, and adjacent.tbl

Would that be possible? *looks hopeful*

Perhaps, but unless you've got a loaded PC easier said than done. The raw images paradox used to create the .tbls from were large enough that a workstation with a gig of memory was needed. EU1 used the same format, and back when it was being developed, gig of ram was very expensive so my gut feeling is that the 1gig was more of a usable threshhold than a silkysmooth performance one. Depending on what Inferis's system looks like, even validating the .psd output might be problematical.

 

[Summoner]

Inferis, could you answer my one little question in post #850 please? I have almost all the code in place for replacing the shading data of an arbitary-sized area with the contents of a bitmap (including the province descriptors aka IDList). Only thing unfinished is the method for encoding a block. So I need to know: why left-right, top-bottom?

See #852, that's the order he did it, but he doesn't think it would matter.

 

[Hive]

Cool ....

It's awesome that your programming some interfaces features there...
But all I think I really need is a command line thing where I could do something like:

InferisesCoolProgram.exe -export Output.psd

and then edit the Output.psd to what i want, and then run

InferisesCoolProgram.exe -import MyNewMap.psd

And it would generate all the lightmap files, and adjacent.tbl

Would that be possible? *looks hopeful*

In the most respectful way possible, of course

It's not that simple. It's not just a matter of important a map into the EUII format, you also need a clear definition of where the new and modified provinces begin and end. You need options to fill in new names for them, options to determine where ports, capital icons, manufactories, etc are shown. You need options to determine what climate the province have, how much manpower, income, trade goods, etc. You need options to determine which other provinces they are connected to. You need options to determine whether something is a land province, a sea zone or PTI.

In short: there's a WHOLE lot of things Inferis needs to do on top of just getting the export/import function to work...

Sure, lots of the stuff I described above can be achieved by messing around with province.csv - but it would be a lot more workable if it was included in the editor.

 

[WiSK]

See #852, that's the order he did it, but he doesn't think it would matter.

Thanks Summoner, I am blind! And there was me saying only a few posts ago that we hang on Inferis' every word...

 

[DSYoungEsq]

It's already that way as far as modding the game goes, no?

Actually, no. You can make most changes you want in the game relatively easily. When I do my testing, for instance, I rarely am modifying more than the basic set-up in either the scenario .eug or the save game .eug file, and some information in province.csv. Messing around with events is slightly harder, but not that difficult, unless you are on some grand project.

So, yes, think of it as being as complicated as the effort involved in, say, the AGCEEP. Then increase by at least a factor of ten.

 

[WiSK]

InferisesCoolProgram.exe -import MyNewMap.psd

And it would generate all the lightmap files, and adjacent.tbl

How do you propose that the program determines the province number from a PSD? By colour? By naming the object/layer? Or some other method?

How do you propose that the program determines adjacencies from a PSD?

What about incgrid? How do you propose the program will represent TI in the export?

What about rivers? How do you want the rivers represented in the export?

 

[Inferis]

Good answer.

 

[unmerged(5110)]

How do you propose that the program determines the province number from a PSD? By colour? By naming the object/layer? Or some other method?

How do you propose that the program determines adjacencies from a PSD?

What about incgrid? How do you propose the program will represent TI in the export?

What about rivers? How do you want the rivers represented in the export?

*shrugs*

Without knowing more about the map structure, and Inferis' plans, I really wouldn't know!

Inferis, would you know anything about this perhaps?

 

[Hive]

Inferis, would you know anything about this perhaps?

Uhm yes, Inferis obviously knows about these issues - but it still doesn't change the fact that it won't be easy nor fast to implement....

 

[WiSK]

Without knowing more about the map structure, and Inferis' plans, I really wouldn't know!

Well, there's a whole thread here with information. As a future user of any map editor, you are well placed to talk about the functionality which you need implemented in order to modify the map. You have made a good start by making it clear that you want to do most of the editing in Photoshop. Now please help us out more and make more suggestions, but we need more details. Yes, that means understanding the map system a little better, but you don't have to know all the technical things, just how it fits together. How the borders work, how the TI works, etc.

You see, it seems that people are now happy to keep quiet and trust Inferis and/or myself to 'make an editor'. But there will be a deluge of demands for features after the first version is released. Just like with any new software of course. Personally, I would like to hear some of those demands before I'm done, so that I can include the good ideas from the start, rather than making features that people find difficult to use. Perhaps that's just idealistic of me.

Anyway, this is similar to what I posted a long time ago, when I first started being interested in the map. Many questions I had then are still vague in my mind. I'm curious to know how an editor can be most useful to all its users. How will it work in the end? I have rough ideas, but I think if there were more discussion about it, we would all get to the answers sooner.

 

[Mad King James]

As an artist, I'd personally like it if I could draw maps in the following way:

one layer for province borders: layer name=borders
each province ID with its own colour (including rivers, oceans, etc)

another layer for the actual province graphics, underneath, minus borders (unless its part of the graphics?) for EU2 this is just text I think. (make this the background layer)

this way I can very easily set the borders layer to multiply blending, select a non-antialiasing brush, and draw borders how I like them, then move the text to where I want it.

 

[Inferis]

As an artist, I'd personally like it if I could draw maps in the following way:

one layer for province borders: layer name=borders
each province ID with its own colour (including rivers, oceans, etc)

another layer for the actual province graphics, underneath, minus borders (unless its part of the graphics?) for EU2 this is just text I think. (make this the background layer)

this way I can very easily set the borders layer to multiply blending, select a non-antialiasing brush, and draw borders how I like them, then move the text to where I want it.

The shading of the provinces is part of the image too, you know... It's not just borders and text. Of course, you can leave the shading out, but you'll have to start from scratch.

To give you people an example of sheer the size of the map: creating an image 18944x7296 gives you 138.215.424 pixels. That's a 138megapixel image! According to photoshop:

395Megs. P-a-r-t-y!
Not bad, is it?

That said: working with PSD files and layers is the best option, but I do not have a good specification. The version referenced before is too old, and I don't think the current photoshop will write older version, and I need to be able to read it back, too (export AND import, right)... I tried TIFFs too, but photoshop does it's own magic things with those and it's hard to find out which...

My current goal is to create 3 png files which you can merge yourself (create an action, for example)... One with the borders, one with the grayscale map, only with an id overlay.

I'll probably create a simple editor to modify the idmap in the editor itself, but don't count on it yet.

 

[WiSK]

As an artist, I'd personally like it if I could draw maps in the following way:

one layer for province borders: layer name=borders
each province ID with its own colour (including rivers, oceans, etc)

another layer for the actual province graphics, underneath, minus borders (unless its part of the graphics?) for EU2 this is just text I think. (make this the background layer)

this way I can very easily set the borders layer to multiply blending, select a non-antialiasing brush, and draw borders how I like them, then move the text to where I want it.

Okay, that's great Some notes:

Borders are actually twofold. There are the border graphics, and the actual border definition. In EU2, these both mostly occupy the same coordinates, so that when you see the red province dividing border it usually is over the top of the ridged border. However, when a river divides two provinces, the red province-dividing border runs down the middle of the river. Have a look in the game to see what I mean.

Additionally, the red province-dividing borders also contain information about which two provinces the border actually divides, and whether there is a river underneath. So this means you'd need several layers to show all this information.

Furthermore, the text is not the only information in the EU2 graphics 'layer'. You have the ridged borders, the province halo and the text all together. The red border and the province identification is in another EU2-'layer'.

For your idea, and to get the full functionality of the EU2 map, you'd probably need the following layers (from background to foreground):
* province halo/shading (greyscale)
* text, e.g. province names (greyscale)
* graphical borders (greyscale)
* province shape (coloured by province number)
* red dividing borders
The importer/editor would have to merge those first three layers into one and then do quite a clever calculation to render the red borders correctly.

 

[WiSK]

working with PSD files and layers is the best option, but I do not have a good specification. The version referenced before is too old, and I don't think the current photoshop will write older version, and I need to be able to read it back, too (export AND import, right)... I tried TIFFs too, but photoshop does it's own magic things with those and it's hard to find out which...

Yes, this is something I'm not even thinking about yet. Until someone coughs up the full specs for recent PSD formats, I'm not going to be able to support Photoshop. Only problem AFAIK is that these details are not (legally) in the public domain...

Until then, I am concentrating on solutions involving copy/paste, and if you don't have much RAM that will mean editing small areas at a time.

EDIT: excuses, yes I am thinking about Photoshop solutions otherwise I wouldn't have answered MKJ, just not able to contemplate implementing them.

 

[WiSK]

By the way...

A little change to England