Hacking the TBL files

[WiSK]

I don't think it would be a problem to justify an extra 16 MB download in exchange for a well-altered map.

... that wasn't including incgrid.tbl and the mod itself which would easily push the size to 25 meg...

 

[Hive]

... that wasn't including incgrid.tbl and the mod itself which would easily push the size to 25 meg...

I still think it would be justified. I'd do it for my mod for sure, and it already have roughly that size...

 

[Nikolai II]

I still think it would be justified. I'd do it for my mod for sure, and it already have roughly that size...

So then it would be 50 meg then

 

[TheLoneTaco]

obviously you guys aren't into half-life and it's 150 meg mod downloads... :^D

-Matt

 

[Coder]

...or bf1942 and its 600MB mod downloads.
The primary problem is still the fact that there is no map editor yet

 

[Hive]

So then it would be 50 meg then

Yes... and I'll do it if we ever see a working editor.

50 megs is nothing, not compared to what you get for it imo.

 

[unmerged(9313)]

Yes... and I'll do it if we ever see a working editor.

50 megs is nothing, not compared to what you get for it imo.

Heck, I would sacrifice 1 GB if it meant being able to edit the provinces. I need more provinces in Italy. And Greece... and everywhere. So yeah, 1 GB would not be a problem. Bring it on

 

[DSYoungEsq]

Keeping in mind, always, that, while the map might be altered some day, the total number of provinces ends up the same regardless. Course, I vote for killing off a couple dozen Siberian provinces, never colonized by anyone but Russia (or an overly active Portugal/Spain/England, etc., with nothing better to do with time and money in the 18th century).

 

[WiSK]

Okay fine guys, 25 megs is nothing. That wasn't the most important point I made.

Does nobody have any comments about the other issue? Like how are you all expecting this editor to work? Do you have any suggestions or ideas for Inferis?

I'm now wondering about the hurdle of province identification. If Inferis makes a program that can import graphic files, how would it identify provinces? A graphics editor can draw colours, so the program would need some input on which color goes with which province. Should it then also try to make a guess about which borders belong with which provinces? And how does the game engine deal with the data it gets? I know that changing the adjacent.tbl file can confuse the game engine with regards to borders and TI.

 

[unmerged(9313)]

Okay fine guys, 25 megs is nothing. That wasn't the most important point I made.

Does nobody have any comments about the other issue? Like how are you all expecting this editor to work? Do you have any suggestions or ideas for Inferis?

I'm now wondering about the hurdle of province identification. If Inferis makes a program that can import graphic files, how would it identify provinces? A graphics editor can draw colours, so the program would need some input on which color goes with which province. Should it then also try to make a guess about which borders belong with which provinces? And how does the game engine deal with the data it gets? I know that changing the adjacent.tbl file can confuse the game engine with regards to borders and TI.

I HOPE that we will be able to resize, add, remove and rename graphically all the provinces. From what I've read so far, those things seem to be planned. Especially the graphically renaming thingie is something I'd really really like.

 

[WiSK]

I HOPE that we will be able to resize, add, remove and rename graphically all the provinces. From what I've read so far, those things seem to be planned. Especially the graphically renaming thingie is something I'd really really like.

Sure, these things would be the eventual goal of a map editor. But how exactly will it achieve this?

Renaming is trickier than you might expect, as each province has a kind of diffuse spotlight painted into it, underneath the name. So you'd have to redo the whole province in your graphic editor and import it with Inferis' tools. Perhaps somebody with some Photoshop nous could comment on how easy it would be to duplicate this spotlight effect, the relief effect on the borders, and getting the right font for the province names.

'Adding' and 'removing' provinces will not be just a question of clicking somewhere and pressing insert or delete. The game has a set number of provinces, so I'd imagine it's more a case of moving a province so that it represents another location. But what to do with the space left by the moved province? Will it become PTI or should it be divided up among neighbouring provinces? Then you've got to import graphics for several provinces at once, plus province/border definitions.

'Resizing'? If we assume that importing a new graphic for an area is achieveable, it becomes mostly a question of finding a simple user-friendly way of importing province/border definitions. But how exactly? That is the question I'm trying to raise with my comments.

 

[TheLoneTaco]

though probably irrelevant to this discussion, paradox should perhaps consider making the maps much less complicated for future games...i really don't see how gameplay suffers if the map looks less graphically appealing. i look to the two imperialism games - they were very simple designs but could model both the real world (albeit not as well as paradox, but for other reasons) and be randomly generated.

-Matt

 

[unmerged(2456)]

...or bf1942 and its 600MB mod downloads.
The primary problem is still the fact that there is no map editor yet

While its bigger in size mtgo has everyone beat as they routinely send out 100 mb upgrades atleast every couple months...and smaller 20 or so meg ones after those...

 

[unmerged(22171)]

A few Questions and Thanks

First off heelo guys and A BIG thanks to Inferis for his work.

I have been working on a map for some time (I'm an optimists), and based on this thread have made some changes to the main graphic etc.

What I have so far is a Photoshop file (taken from EU Screen shots) in which I have layers for Borders, & Province blocks... the Block Layers are for import into Illustrator via Streamline, giving editable paths.

I have a few questions about the File format in-order to continue with the basic map.

Changes I would like to make are:

1) reshape and align the sea Blocks to better represent trade winds and currents.

2) Rearrange the European Provinces Making larger (Capitals) cities have there own isolated areas such as London, Constantinople, Viena, Lubeck, Hansiatic City States etc. I would prefer it to be possible to occupy own the surrounding land without ever breaking the city.

3) re- work the channel making the sea off Calais the only shared zone.

4) Modify the Baltic to enable represent the coastal occupancy that occurred in theses areas. Important historical assets Like Ruggen, Borholm, and generally spice up the Sweden v Danmark & Kalmar v Capitalist conflicts.


To the Questions: Just to clarify for me...

a) Is it possible to expand the Map size in terms of pixels?
b) Is it possible to to run a non circular map including say Hudson to Santiago, to oman and up the Urals? As in can EU2 run without full circumnavigation?
c) If a) is possible would Johan (please) consider a recompile to double or at least increase somewhat the number of Nations and Provinces?
d) Re the borders, Is there a figure for there size in pixels/points? Do the provinces But against each other or is there space between them?
e) I take it that the Actual Map graphic need only be grayscale?

Thanks in advance...

P.s. re: Working on the large Map at once. I often work on 6-700MB Files on my stock PowerMac Dual 1.25 Ghz with no real problems. Occasional minor slowdowns when Virtual memory kicks in are the only hassle. Also its pretty easy to work on the graphical element in sections if you find the speed a real issue.

 

[WiSK]

a) Is it possible to expand the Map size in terms of pixels?

No.

b) Is it possible to to run a non circular map including say Hudson to Santiago, to oman and up the Urals? As in can EU2 run without full circumnavigation?

Just put PTI on each edge.

c) If a) is possible would Johan (please) consider a recompile to double or at least increase somewhat the number of Nations and Provinces?

Heh, would be nice, but I doubt it!

d) Re the borders, Is there a figure for there size in pixels/points? Do the provinces But against each other or is there space between them?

The borders can be as wide as you like. In the Paradox map they are all around 4-5 pixels wide, but this is not mandatory. Regarding the space between them - the only good way to do this is to put a river there. If you put PTI in between provinces, then the EU2 graphics engine seems to get confused. But until we can really test certain situations it is difficult to say whether this is always true.

e) I take it that the Actual Map graphic need only be grayscale?

It must be greyscale - 64 shades.

 

[unmerged(22171)]

Ok so if the Pixel count is fixed... that limits the extra detail that can be added to the origional map.

I assume it is possible to change the Aspect ratio of the map providing we stay with 134,976 blocks of 32x32 pixels?

 

[WiSK]

Ok so if the Pixel count is fixed... that limits the extra detail that can be added to the origional map.

I assume it is possible to change the Aspect ratio of the map providing we stay with 134,976 blocks of 32x32 pixels?

I'm afraid not. All the .tbl files have fixed indices giving 592 x 228 blocks. Basically you are stuck with 1613 provinces (plus PTI and 'dummy') at a fixed size and aspect ratio.

The other thing to worry about is the compression (the quadleaf thing that Inferis discovered from Johan's code). I briefly looked into the possibilities for rendering a map based on the 2 minute land and sea elevation projections available from the NDGC. However, I don't believe the quadleaf system would be ideal for compressing this data to under 16 megabytes. Not to mention the fact that with a 'real' map, islands like Mauritius are barely visible - even Crete is pokey. So I gave up on that plan

So why do you want more detail? What are you planning?

 

[unmerged(22171)]

I'm afraid not. All the .tbl files have fixed indices giving 592 x 228 blocks. Basically you are stuck with 1613 provinces (plus PTI and 'dummy') at a fixed size and aspect ratio.

The other thing to worry about is the compression (the quadleaf thing that Inferis discovered from Johan's code). I briefly looked into the possibilities for rendering a map based on the 2 minute land and sea elevation projections available from the NDGC. However, I don't believe the quadleaf system would be ideal for compressing this data to under 16 megabytes. Not to mention the fact that with a 'real' map, islands like Mauritius are barely visible - even Crete is pokey. So I gave up on that plan

So why do you want more detail? What are you planning?

Ok the Aspect ratio will have to do... if it is fixed then so be it...

By Detail I mean Stratigic provinces etc. rather than Graphics. Graphically I had in mind an even simpler scheme than the current one, pehaps along the style of manuscripts ca. 1200.

What i would like (faced with the above restrictions) is to concentrate the game on a smaller area of the world (from present map: Mazatlan in the west, Fernando Po in the south, and Indus in the East.

By squeezing the 1613 provinces into this area I had hoped to retain the Colonial element of the game, but enable a more Europe centric game play.

By expanding the the mentioned area to the size of the global map, Provinces like Bornhlom, Ruggen, the wendish flats etc become usable and would allow great expansion on the Detail in the Scandinavian v Hansa area (such as capturing Mecklenburg but not Lubeck itself. There is loads of play potential in the Baltic alone. I feel and expanded Europe would deliver a much more locally focused feel. Provinces becoming secondary to Cities, and Islands Rüggen becoming very strategic...

Idealy i would have preferred to do this as well as include the globe.

Either way I am 85% done Painting the map, and welcome any details on layout that I may have missed. I'm assuming the paths I have will prove to be an aid to completion etc. I had been using a 4 pixel brush to draw borders etc.


Re your query about the Halo and name changes... I mocked up a rename of Vaster Gothland, to Dansk Gotland in about 5mins using Photoshop and indesign. Personally I feel that once you have the Province paths sorted then any effect is very simple whether a boundary based gradient fill, or a quick dust with the airbrush tool. Illustrator makes a layer for Text only, a snip, which means you can then merge names onto your new map latter.

BTW the working Map at full res 8bit grey scale is only 120 MB or so.

 

[WiSK]

Sounds pretty cool

Either way I am 85% done Painting the map, and welcome any details on layout that I may have missed. I'm assuming the paths I have will prove to be an aid to completion etc. I had been using a 4 pixel brush to draw borders etc.

Just to double-check: you realise you need to make two maps? One is the graphical rendition of the map, and one defines the borders and the provinces like a kind of mask. It's not clear yet the specifications of the second part, because Inferis hasn't defined the exact functionality of his editor. However, as long as you have the borders as a separate layer then I think you can probably generate this quite simply.

EDIT: To see what I mean, have a look at Inferis' map viewer. The graphic marked 'lightmap' is a representation of how the picture data is stored, while the graphic marked 'IDMap' shows how the borders and provinces are stored.

Re your query about the Halo and name changes... I mocked up a rename of Vaster Gothland, to Dansk Gotland in about 5mins using Photoshop and indesign. Personally I feel that once you have the Province paths sorted then any effect is very simple whether a boundary based gradient fill, or a quick dust with the airbrush tool. Illustrator makes a layer for Text only, a snip, which means you can then merge names onto your new map latter.

Ah, it's called a 'halo' then? But any idea which font it is that Paradox uses on the standard maps?

 

[Birger]

I would like to see less cartoonish map and more like CK/Vicky.