Habsburg Restoration

[blakh]

Does anyone agree with me that it would be interesting to have a possibility in Austria or Hungary (perhaps also other CE countries) to restore the Habsburgs? The Austrian regime both consisted of ardent legitimists and considered restoration a viable option to fend off the Nazis, already taking serious steps and chancellor Schuschnigg purportedly even signing a document with Otto in 1937 called "Preparation of Restauration" (source: German wikipedia: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_von_Habsburg#Zwischenkriegszeit), and the only thing standing between Hungary and Habsburg restoration was Horthy's not wanting it to happen, ostensibly for fear of British intervention, so it doesn't seem to me like a fantasy scenario at all. Granted, the population was beginning to accept the death of monarchy as a fact, but anyone over 20 in 1936 would still remember the Empire as living fact, and not a thing of history. At game start, Otto was 24 years old, and conceivably would have accepted an offer of rulership at that time. Any thoughts?

 

[Kovax]

Horthy didn't want it to happen because of the well-grounded fears that it would lead to an invasion by the Little Entente (CZE was already looking for an excuse to fight), eagerly backed by France, as well as possibly bringing in the UK, and because it would almost inevitably shatter the country internally between those who loved the idea and those who hated it bitterly. In essence, it would probably have been national suicide. Horthy's own ambitions (or ambitions for his son) may or may not have come into play as well.

There was no possibility of renewing the A-H Empire and collecting the scattered independent pieces (CZE, YUG, etc.) without resort to force, and force was clearly out of the question. Without those pieces, which were plainly stronger than either AUS or HUN, there was no possibility of A-H standing up to Germany, or even Italy, as both AUS and HUN had been disarmed and neutered to the point where they couldn't have offered serious resistance, much less a credible threat of attack.

 

[blakh]

All very true, but very similar results could be had by going fascist as Austria, or going socialist (again) in Hungary, both of which you can do in the game. Mind you, I don't necessarily want it to be a good idea from a power player perspective, but at least for Austria, I would believe after '36 everybody and their mother would have been celebrating if there had been restauration keeping the Nazis at bay. (Well, everybody except the Czechs perhaps, what with Rather Hitler than Habsburg and all that jazz.)

Edit: I don't think if it was possible in the game, other CE countries should flock to the Empire, it should just be a possible internal decision. Maybe should have been more clear about that.

 

[Orlunu]

It's in the plans for my first mod, so, yes, I want it. The biggest problem is the lack of tag changing, which means that it'll probably have to be an Austria-only thing (they seemed the most likely to do it, as far as I can tell).

I'm hoping that it'll even be possible to make restorations result in different types of monarchy dependant on which ideology dominates in the country at the time.

 

[vranasm]

considering the latest WWW Hungary showing off I would probably think it would be very interesting what-if scenario when in game.

 

[Nicolas I]

In Hungary, a law from November 5, 1921 (Dethronement Bill) suspended the rights of the Habsburgs...

This topic was already discussed : https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/austrian-and-hungarian-restoration.910574/

 

[artist_designer]

I get why forming Austria-Hungary isn't gonna happen, but I really hoped after watching WWW we would be able to form Hungary-Austria.

 

[Demarque]

Although it might have been unlikely, I don't see why it should be discarded. There are mods for a reason.

Heck, if the player chooses to restore the Habsburgs, he can easily imagine it as a "minor alternate history" chain of events where there was more support for the monarchy, or where Austria was a little bit more powerful, for whatever reason, so that it could become a possibility.

In my opinion, it would be interesting to restore the Habsburgs, rebuild Austria and even rival Germany, even if that sounds ridiculous historically

 

[Szabimabli]

In Hungary, a law from November 5, 1921 (Dethronement Bill) suspended the rights of the Habsburgs...

This topic was already discussed : https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/austrian-and-hungarian-restoration.910574/

Well we were suspending the Habsburg in like every 100 years, so its kinda funny....
Maybe an update will make it possible. Or mods.

 

[blakh]

In Hungary, a law from November 5, 1921 (Dethronement Bill) suspended the rights of the Habsburgs...

This topic was already discussed : https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/austrian-and-hungarian-restoration.910574/

That thread is about forming Austria-Hungary and restoring the borders of the empire, something which should definitely not be possible without a lot of bloodshed (that is, war by war mechanics), if at all. My concern is simply the possibility of reinstating the monarchy in Austria, which isn't any more absurd then the fascists gaining control of America: very unlikely indeed, but still an option the player can go for. Basically I think it would be awesome if instead of going fascist, I could go legitimist as Austria, install Otto and declare a series of conquests. If the croats come willingly, so be it. (I think the nation most probable to do any such move historically, save probably Hungary; but I don't think anybody knows how much Horthy would have been willing to give up power, especially after his falling out with Karl).

Austria-Hungary would be especially pointless, since the constitution that split it up into these countries was its downfall, and that was recognised as early as the late 19th century, so why make the same error again?

Edit: Also, Horthy continued to use Imperial Regent as his official title, if I recall correctly, even after the Dethronement Bill. So as I said, if Horthy had changed his mind (which translates into if the player so desires), restitution wouldn't have been impossible for internal causes. What sort of international reaction there would have been in the 30's is another story of course.

 

[sfmess]

My concern is simply the possibility of reinstating the monarchy in Austria, which isn't any more absurd then the fascists gaining control of America: very unlikely indeed, but still an option the player can go for.

Honestly this^

People on this forum get so butthurt over "historically implausible" suggestions re: the ability to restore monarchies in countries that traditionally had one and had active movements and support for said restorations (China/Manchuko, Austria/Hungary, Germany, Russia...etc...etc...) ...but then they don't bat an eye that the game offers the ability for America to go Communist or Fascist.

More flavour and options to expand the sandbox nature of HOI4 in this regard hurt no one.

...and saying "mod it in" shouldn't be the trump card to silence actually plausible, interesting suggestions.

 

[Secret Master]

If you want to mod it in, sure.

Given that not only none of her neighbors would support such a move, but that Hitler and the Nazis didn't even like the A-H monarchy, I don't see how it could be pulled off without some kind of free stuff given to Austria (or Hungary, if you went that route).

I also don't think it would be a good idea to give cores to either Hungary or Austria that cover the entire pre-WWI empire. (Claims, perhaps, but at what cost?) And even if Austria or Hungary managed to somehow conquer to pre-WWI borders, there should be plenty of unrest to deal with. Things were bad enough in either country without adding a bunch of newly conquered nationalistic groups of people who hate the government.

 

[blakh]

If you want to mod it in, sure.

Given that not only none of her neighbors would support such a move, but that Hitler and the Nazis didn't even like the A-H monarchy, I don't see how it could be pulled off without some kind of free stuff given to Austria (or Hungary, if you went that route).

I also don't think it would be a good idea to give cores to either Hungary or Austria that cover the entire pre-WWI empire. (Claims, perhaps, but at what cost?) And even if Austria or Hungary managed to somehow conquer to pre-WWI borders, there should be plenty of unrest to deal with. Things were bad enough in either country without adding a bunch of newly conquered nationalistic groups of people who hate the government.

Please read what I wrote. I am not about to argue about Austria given free stuff to reinstitute Austria-Hungary. I am takling about the Austrian government calling the claimant to head an Austrian monarchy, something that is not far-fetched historically at all. Austria had one ally at that time, Italy, which was rapidly turning into the weak part of the German-Italian alliance, not providing a shield from Hitler for very much longer. (If I recall history lessons correctly, when Hitler had his amry much on the German-Austrian border, Mussolini had his on the Austrian-Italian border in response, keeping him in check for some time, but that was before Abyssina.) So there is really not much to say about what the neighbours would support. Also, if the neighbours don't support a move, they have all the tool disapproving neighbours have in HoI. And please don't try to tell me that there are no nations in HoI whose neighbours would never have supported their respective fantasy Fascist/Communist/Democratic choices. All I'm saying is, Austria should have the option not only to turn fascist or socialist, but also to turn into a monarchy; quite probably the same is true for some other nations as well, I just happen to know that the Austrian government was actually taking steps in that direction one year before the Anschluss.

And as for how viable conquering the borders of the old Empire is, sure there should be nationalism, unrest and so on. But the same is true if Fascist Austria tries to pull that off. Or D9l Hungary. Or any other nation for that matter.

And the Austrian government precisely considered restoration as a defensive action, trying to provide for a regime that would be viewed as legitimate even by the left, not as something to please the Nazis with.

Of course, if playing as Austria there simply is no way of surviving the Anschluss plans, this whole discussion is rather silly. On the other hand, giving the player a way of restoring the monarchy might be a tool to do exactly that.

 

[blakh]

Honestly this^

People on this forum get so butthurt over "historically implausible" suggestions re: the ability to restore monarchies in countries that traditionally had one and had active movements and support for said restorations (China/Manchuko, Austria/Hungary, Germany, Russia...etc...etc...) ...but then they don't bat an eye that the game offers the ability for America to go Communist or Fascist.

More flavour and options to expand the sandbox nature of HOI4 in this regard hurt no one.

...and saying "mod it in" shouldn't be the trump card to silence actually plausible, interesting suggestions.

I would add that in Austria, as opposed to all of the other countries (except Hungary), the country was actually run by a party mostly consisting of the people supporting restoration.

 

[Anichent]

Hungary's leader didn't want this, the countries surrounding Hungary and Austria opposed it, and the major countries like France and the UK would INSTANTLY have declared war if that happened. There is nothing they were more sure about.

 

[Orlunu]

the major countries like France and the UK would INSTANTLY have declared war if that happened. There is nothing they were more sure about.

That seems like a very dubious claim to me. Germany remilitarises the Saarland and takes the Sudetenland, fine. The little rump country of Austria gets a king on its throne again, KILL IT WITH FIRE!!! Nah.

"If the Allies at the peace table at Versailles had allowed a Hohenzollern, a Wittelsbach and a Habsburg to return to their thrones, there would have been no Hitler. A democratic basis of society might have been preserved by a crowned Weimar in contact with the victorious Allies."
- Winston Churchill (Sure, he wasn't that important in the pre-war government, but his views were fairly typical of the British ruling class)

 

[blakh]

Hungary's leader didn't want this, the countries surrounding Hungary and Austria opposed it, and the major countries like France and the UK would INSTANTLY have declared war if that happened. There is nothing they were more sure about.

This is absolutely true, if you are talking about the 20s. Whether France or the UK really wanted to give Germany an excuse for intervention in the 30's is a different matter altogether. And if I play Hungary, I can bloody well decide myself what Hungary's leader wants. Also it is by no means sure that he didn't want this, he might have been perfectly candid when he said he didn't want it for fear of British and French intervention.

 

[Secret Master]

Please read what I wrote. I am not about to argue about Austria given free stuff to reinstitute Austria-Hungary.

My comment is not necessarily directed at you. This is only the 345th thread on this topic that has happened over the past 24 months

Someone will almost inevitably want to buff things so that the imperialistic dreams can be realized. It would be horribly unbalancing and silly.

 

[blakh]

My comment is not necessarily directed at you. This is only the 345th thread on this topic that has happened over the past 24 months

It isn't. I checked before I made the thread. There is one other thread asking for the possibility of restoring Austria-Hungary in its former borders, which is not at all what I'm after. I want the possibility of my ruler being Otto I instead of Schuschnigg, something which was historically at least plausible; a lot more so than fascist America, which is in the game.

 

[PlayerHOI]

It's in the plans for my first mod, so, yes, I want it. The biggest problem is the lack of tag changing, which means that it'll probably have to be an Austria-only thing (they seemed the most likely to do it, as far as I can tell).

I'm hoping that it'll even be possible to make restorations result in different types of monarchy dependant on which ideology dominates in the country at the time.

tag switching is confirmed to be in the game.