Habsburg-French Rivalry

[crusaderking]

Through most of the time-frame of EU4, the Habsburgs wanted to encircle France while France wanted to break the encirclement. What state of affairs would have been acceptable for the Habsurgs to say "fait accompli"? Of course, at the end of the day, they would have loved to have a Habsburg on the throne of France too. But let's say they want to cut France down to prevent it from becoming too powerful. How did they imagine they would achieve it? Through a system of alliances alone? Or by taking some provinces away from them? If the latter, which provinces would they have taken?

 

[Amallric]

Well this rivalry had two aspects: control of the territories that were originally Burgundian, and control of Italy. A total victory of the Habsburg would probably mean France gets contained in its borders of the mid 16-th century, and total control over Italy. Historically the Habsburgs essentially managed to take control of Italy, but ended up gradually losing Burgundia.

 

[crusaderking]

Didn't the Habsburgs want to weaken the French politically and economically as well? Just as how France wanted to keep the HRE from uniting into a more coherent polity.

 

[joak]

Through most of the time-frame of EU4, the Habsburgs wanted to encircle France while France wanted to break the encirclement.

This puts rather too much foresight into the Habsburg (and French) motivations. Both were trying to expand, consolidate or preserve influence, usually driven by dynastic legalities. This was usually opportunistic. The French started fighting in Italy before the Habsburgs were unified because it seemed a a decent place to attack and the French kings had a claim. Similarly with the Habsburg acquisition of Burgundy, or for that matter their (non-French) ambitions in Bohemia and Hungary through the 16th century.

They were rivals, both a threat to the other, looking for the upper hand. Encirclement wasn't really a goal in itself--if anything one of the problems was that their possessions were so far flung that they were precarious any ruler would have pursued security by getting an Italy-to-Netherlands route firmed up and opposed French activity on the border.

Habsburg "victory" would look like them being so dominant the French deferred to them on all international questions, including succession questions but I don't think they quite looked at it that way. They didn't come close, although probably the most plausible win would have been the "Spanish" faction during the religious wars (and realistically that wouldn't have avoided war for very long anyway.)

 

[JodelDiplom]

They weren't playing it like a game, where you have victory conditions you try to achieve. Both had their daily business and their grand ambitions, and generally wanted to be the biggest, most respected, most feared rulers of Europe and hated it when others didn't do what they wanted them to do.

Both their courts were also full of ambitious noblemen, who wanted to be given prestigeous army commands and opportunities to win glory and riches for themselves. So conflicts could have happened regardless of whether one side "fulfilled" their ambitions or not.

 

[Aetherius]

If you speak about the dynastical opposition between capetians and habsburgs, here's a clue : Both dynasties had ruled states viewed by their sovereigns as sole heir of the roman empire. Before 17th century and the rise of proto-international law (with traities (The Westphalia one is mostly considered as the foundation), there was no agreed, stable and durable division of the lands. Each nation wanted the control of the œcumene .

 

[Ruwaard]

This puts rather too much foresight into the Habsburg (and French) motivations. Both were trying to expand, consolidate or preserve influence, usually driven by dynastic legalities. This was usually opportunistic. The French started fighting in Italy before the Habsburgs were unified because it seemed a a decent place to attack and the French kings had a claim. Similarly with the Habsburg acquisition of Burgundy, or for that matter their (non-French) ambitions in Bohemia and Hungary through the 16th century.

They were rivals, both a threat to the other, looking for the upper hand. Encirclement wasn't really a goal in itself--if anything one of the problems was that their possessions were so far flung that they were precarious any ruler would have pursued security by getting an Italy-to-Netherlands route firmed up and opposed French activity on the border.

Habsburg "victory" would look like them being so dominant the French deferred to them on all international questions, including succession questions but I don't think they quite looked at it that way. They didn't come close, although probably the most plausible win would have been the "Spanish" faction during the religious wars (and realistically that wouldn't have avoided war for very long anyway.)

The Habsburgs inheriting the lands of Valois-Burgundy was planned, since it would bring important imperial territories back to the HRE and at the same time fortify their position in the Empire. The Habsburgs also actively pursued to regain Hungary (-Croatia) and Bohemia for their dynasty.
Inheriting the Trastamara realms (Crowns of Castille and Aragon) was more dynastic 'luck' though. Both the Trastamaras and Habsburgs had very good reasons to ally against France. The Habsburgs had interests in the Burgundian Lands, where they inherited the rivalty between the main Valois line & Valois-Orléans and Valois-Burgundy. The Habsburgs had interests in the duchy of Milan, due to being close to the Austrian Lands, but also HRE they also had to defend Imperial interests in Italy (considered a vital part of the HRE).
The Valois kings of France had dynastic claims on the duchy of Milan and the kingdom of Naples. The kingdom of Naples was held by the Aragonese branch of the house of Trastamara, the Catholic king Ferdinand of Aragon (was from this branch).
Also given the population, wealth etc. of France, France threatened to become the hegemonial power in western Europe, the diplomatic encirclement was to counter this threat. In turn France felt threatened by this encirclement (formed to counter any French threat).
Habsburg Spain was far less planned.

 

[joak]

The Habsburgs inheriting the lands of Valois-Burgundy was planned, since it would bring important imperial territories back to the HRE and at the same time fortify their position in the Empire. The Habsburgs also actively pursued to regain Hungary (-Croatia) and Bohemia for their dynasty.

For a very unusual definition of 'planned.' It wasn't like they knew Charles the Bold would be killed at Nancy and were just waiting for the chance to marry Anne, or the marriage contract with Lajos was written with the knowledge he'd be childless and dead at Mohacs at the age of 23.

As I said, what the Habsburgs did was opportunistically exploit events when they came up, fighting wars to hang on to their sometimes tenuous rights. But they'd have been just as willing to inherit (or be elected) king of Poland or Denmark or Pommerania if that came up.

 

[crusaderking]

For a very unusual definition of 'planned.' It wasn't like they knew Charles the Bold would be killed at Nancy and were just waiting for the chance to marry Anne, or the marriage contract with Lajos was written with the knowledge he'd be childless and dead at Mohacs at the age of 23.

As I said, what the Habsburgs did was opportunistically exploit events when they came up, fighting wars to hang on to their sometimes tenuous rights. But they'd have been just as willing to inherit (or be elected) king of Poland or Denmark or Pommerania if that came up.

Despite the opportunism, I'm sure they would have had an idea of how to rein in France, which would be, as you mentioned above, a more or less diplomatic victory over France. Yes, they would have tried to expand in any direction possible, but, as you pointed out, war would have broken out sooner or later.

Anyway, thanks for the replies.

 

[Ruwaard]

For a very unusual definition of 'planned.' It wasn't like they knew Charles the Bold would be killed at Nancy and were just waiting for the chance to marry Anne, or the marriage contract with Lajos was written with the knowledge he'd be childless and dead at Mohacs at the age of 23.

As I said, what the Habsburgs did was opportunistically exploit events when they came up, fighting wars to hang on to their sometimes tenuous rights. But they'd have been just as willing to inherit (or be elected) king of Poland or Denmark or Pommerania if that came up.

When HRE Frederick III and Charles the Bold first started negotiating that marriage between the former's heir Maximilian and the latter's heiress Mary, she had been the heiress quite some time now and the present marriage of Charles also had remained childless for quite some time. However the marriage of Mary with Maximilian only was agreed upon after Charles had died at Nancy.
Regaining Hungary and Bohemia was also policy, when Ladislaus was still childless, so before Louis and Anna were born, the Habsburgs already had an inheritance treaty with Ladislaus. Later a double marriage was needed, which at first was a setback for the Habsburgs, with Mohacs and perhaps even Louis being too rash, they got 'lucky'.

What the Habsburgs did befits the era, that is to say, I don't think any other contemporary dynasty would have acted differently.

Finally there are a few differences. The Habsburg powerbase were the Austrian Hereditary Lands and their position within the Empire. The Burgundian Inheritance, which consisted of quite a lot Imperial territories, which also happened to be quite wealthy, could further strengthen their position in the Empire.
The Habsburgs and Austria, naturallly had an interest in neighbouring Bohemia and Hungary. That they unhappy their house (albeit a different branch) lost those thrones was an extra motive. Bohemia also meant a further strengthening of their position in the Empire and it would make them a prince-elector.
So the Habsburgs had strategic interests, when it came to those lands. Still if Poland or Denmark would have come up, then naturally they would have accepted it, but trying to gain those would have been a lesser priority.