Habitats are nerfed to irrelevance?

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GAGA Extrem

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Habitats are less powerful in the sense that you don't want to just spam them everywhere anymore - at least, as long as you don't have access to quasi-infinite Minerals (Machine Worlds, Hive Worlds, Matter Decompressor).

That being said, they are still quite good. Their primary use is to provide you with more building slots, which allows you to move your manufacturing industry off-world and synergizes well with the fact that you can easily get high amenities on a Habitat by building a few Trade Districts (which gives you high stability and thus a significant job yield bonus).

Trade Habitats are also quite solid - it's not uncommon to get 120+ TV from one, which means you'll generate a decent surplus of Energy and Consumer Goods for the rest of your empire (which in turn reduces M consumption, by allowing you to remove some of the CG factories).

There is also a chance that they might get slightly reduced build cost and upkeep in the future. I did lobby for it. But no guarantees.
 

GAGA Extrem

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A normal district on a normal world gets you 2 point closer to reaching your admin cap. Are you saying that habitat districts require less than 2?
I am pretty sure districts increase empire size by 1, not 2.

Something can be both good and consistently inferior to alternative options at the same time; however, as you have surely played more 2.2 than I have, how do Habitats compare to Ecumenopoli? They both seem to be good at TV/consumer goods while both contributing to administrative cap in an efficient manor. By this standard, Habitats seem to be the cheaper, quicker, but ultimately inferior versions of Ecumenopoli. Short term profit vs long term profit and all that jazz. Given the huge number of AP options compared to the only 8 AP slots, you have to consider what is ultimately the superior choice, even if the inferior ones are still technically good.
Disclaimer: Due to my playstile (tall + Agarian Idyll), I am not a big fan of Ecumenopoli and I do prefer Ringworlds over them.
That being said: They serve very different purposes.

Ecumenopoli have two functions: (1) To provide living space for pops and (2) to provide manufacturing capability.
The idea here is to squeeze as many pops into each bit of planet size as possible. The manufacuring districts look great on paper, but are, ultimately, just a low-maintenance no-slot-use version of the regular buildings. What many people overlook is that to get the Ecumenopolis, you have to give up ALL deposits on a planet. So you lose resource production to save some resources. Don't get me wrong - they have their place. They are great for an empire that has access to lots of M and they are okay at keeping empire size down.

Habitats have two functiions as well: (1) To provide living space and (2) to provide building slots. That is a completely different niche than the Ecumnopolis and caters to small and medium sized empires that want to maximize efficiency.
 
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GAGA Extrem

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@GAGA Extrem I love how you accidentally put your reply inside my quote. It confused the heck out of me for a moment :) Also, I can't imagine that Habitats have their own deposits.
Yeah, lunch time trains where leaving the office, so I had to wrap up and...
...see, that's how silly bugs in games happen!

Well that may be an interesting niche for some ways to play, but you can't deny that it makes habitats way less versatile and useful. \

A player economy before the update would need food for population growth, minerals for production, energy partly as currency partly as maintenance. Unity for traditions, tech for research, special resources for some bonuses here and there, you also have a few things affecting happiness and all that.
[...]
While habitats may be useful for a particular niche, they are definitely way less powerful than they used to be.
Well, here is the thing: They can't really take their old role as resource producers anymore. But in return, they are more powerful for the new parts of the economy that were added.
It is more like a complete shift of their use - but I don't think it made them weaker. I actually think they are more powerful AND that they work better, since they are a choice now, instead of brain dead spamming.

Also that reminds me of one more use for Habitats: They are great growth-generators for your empire, since it still is on a per-planet base, and they are far cheaper and faster to construct than Ringworlds. :)

No minerals I get, but you can't make food on a habitat?
Why the f... not?

Hell, growing food on a habitat might be more efficient then on a planet RL, since you can deiced how much of it is open to the stars light.
You can build Hydroponic Farms on Habitats, if you really want to.
 

GAGA Extrem

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I think Habitats are still great.

Every empire has a use for more building slots - at worst it will allow you to build more utility buildings like resources boosters, clone vaults or forts (for FTL inhibition) on your planets - and thanks to their large housing districts, Habitats provide a lot of building slots per empire size, which is definitely a thing that does matter mid game.
 

GAGA Extrem

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[...]
I'll have to play a new game trying out Gaga's recommendations for specialization, I know that before the update, they were essential to inward perfection build (until you build ringworlds at least), now I'm not so sure.
Ringworlds can house *a lot* of pops now - they have to come from somewhere. ;)

I haven't gotten far enough to use the city world yet, so I haven't gotten a good look at one. If my questions seem stupid, that's why.

It is my understanding that turning a planet into a world city clears the resource districts (minerals, food, energy) and replaces them with manufacturing districts that make things like alloys and consumer goods. Once your empire is grabbing plenty of energy, minerals, and food from other sources (either specialized planets or deposits in systems), doesn't it make sense to at turn a large planet into a city world just so you can produce a lot more things like alloys?
[...]
An Ecumenopolis is a great way to produce lots of alloys without having to pay the special resource cost from using regular alloy / CG factories.

...however, to get there you have to give up all deposits on a planet. Every M deposit you forfeit is equal to the upkeep cost saved by at least 1 (probably more like 1.5 to 2 in the late game) special Ecumenopolis districts.

If you have a planet with terrible deposits or an infinite M source (Decompressor, Machine Worlds, etc.) - sure, go ahead. Otherwise, it's probably better to retain the deposits and use regular fabrication.
 
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GAGA Extrem

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Doesn't even need to be adjacent - if you fully upgrade the Starbase of your capital system, it will collect in a 6 system radius.
 

GAGA Extrem

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Deposits don't do anything without districts and pops to work them. And you don't have infinite pops. So the question is is it more efficient to have two planets with mineral districts and alloy buildings on each, or one planet with mineral districts and one planet with alloy districts.
Unless you have unlimited M sources, the answer is definitely two planets with Mining districts.
 

GAGA Extrem

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The issue with that statement is that, now that Galactic Wonders unlocks a whopping 8 megastructures, one of which provides 1k minerals/month and another of which is better than Grasp the Void, Eternal Vigilance, and Galactic Force Projection combined (no, I am never letting this go, at least not until the aforementioned APs get a buff/rework), there is never a reason not to take it. Yes, it is still technically a "choice" to take Galactic Wonders, but the choice between getting 1 million dollars with no strings attached or getting a swift kick to the groin by Walker Texas Ranger is still technically a choice, but one of the choices is obviously better 100% of the time. Since this is the case, how is taking Galactic Wonders not essentially mandatory now?
It is obviously not mandatory (an aggressive warmonger style can ignore it and just funnel its alloys into more ships), but certain very good. Is it *too* good right now? Yeah, probably a bit too much bang-per-perk.
...but that perk being "a bit OP" doesn't mean that Habitats are bad.

[...]
I'm not saying these are the only possible solutions. They are just the most obvious.

@GAGA Extrem I am very curious as to your thoughts on this.
Eh, I'd go with keeping them in one perk, but force the player to unlock specific mega structures with tier 5 or 6 techs. One (Ringworld?) would be free by default.

Just curious, but how would you get an ecumenopolis and a machine world?

Also, kind of off topic, but are Habitats supposed to be that far away from planets? I just build my first in 2.2 and it ended up outside the system border, since I wanted to build it around the outermost planet in the system.

Edit: After the Habitat has finished construction, it is where it is supposed to be - over the planet. Maybe only a bug while it is under construction?
Conquest would be one way, I guess?
The Habitat placement thingy during construction is probably a bug.

Maybe in your games pop growth is an issue, but I've never really had an issue where my pops weren't growing fast enough. My issue is generally that my production is too small to support my population which tends to explode, so for my inward perfection agrarian idyll build, I don't really think that I'll need the additional manufacturing provided by "outsourcing" it to habitats. Generally my early game planets become the manufacturing core and I expand into more planets to fill the manufacturing needs instead of expanding manufacturing when I don't have nearly enough raw materials to be gluttonous like that.
I don't want to say that you are doing it wrong, but there isn't really such a thing as "too many pops", especially during the early game. You'll need to find a good job balance between low and mid strata jobs to make sure that you can support the population and have enough surplus income to afford building & district construction, but that's pretty much it.

My suggestion would be to focus a bit more on resource boosting techs to make the economy more efficient. In that case Habitats are also useful, because they allow you to use the 3 resource boosting buildings on your planets to improve raw resource output, which means you have more flexibility for pop employment options.

I used Arcology and habitats as a major part of my militarization.

Once you get into the 75+ pop range, you're going to want to start using the buildings that give the +10 jobs anyway and those tend to be the higher strata buildings (generally). I only used Ecumenopolis because at that point I had demolished so many resource districts for the housing growth on my capital world that it only required a small hit. So to keep away from mass unemployment/crime, the choice is a culture planet or an alloy planet - and if you're going alloy planet then Arcology is the more efficient way to do it.
I think this comes down to player philosophy. Let me give you an examples to contrast this idea: The Agrarian Idyll play style. A weird hybrid that is tall and un-tall at the same time.

Instead of cramping as many pops as possible on your planets, you focus on maximizing resource output and efficiency. You don't build a single city and instead utilize as many deposits as possible. The planet will have a lower population cap, which means there is less incentive to upgrade your production buildings. This in turn saves resources (by having lower upkeep & less refinement buildings). A part of these preserved resources are reinvested into Habitats (and pay for their alloy upkeep). The Habitats in turn provide more building slots, so now you can move more buildings off your planets to allow maximizing resource output further.

You still want to get 75 pop on every planet, so on very small planets you might need a luxury residence or two. On the flip side, large planets will probably have so many pops that you'll need to upgrade a few buildings, but ultimately you will maintain a low footprint for special resource upkeep. Later down the line when your planets start to reach maximum capacity, you can use a Ringworld to resettle excess population.
 
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Too many pops is when I'm struggling to produce/afford the upkeep resources at something near break even. [...]
As long as you have access to enough deposits, that shouldn't really happen. Even an early game economy is able to sustain pops under harsh conditions (e.g. low habitability worlds).

My guess is this:
(a) You are constructing buildings that provide mid-strata jobs that move resource producing pops. That means you end up with empty low-strata jobs of a resource type you are currently making enough of, and newly grown pops go into these jobs, leaving the jobs for the resource you'd need empty.

(b) You might build too many orbital stations and/or high-upkeep buildings too quickly, so your economy fails to keep up. Labs and Monuments, for example, are significant economy drains - especially during the early game.
 

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I am struggling with too many pops 100 years into the game. I have run out of minerals to make consumer goods and rare minerals. That hasn't stunted my growth, it has killed it. Neither habitats nor ringworlds will help me as they can't produce minerals. I don't have a convenient Black Hole nearby for mineral megastructure. My only choice is to expand... or die. So much for a peaceful tall game.

Before you ask - yes, I have all mineral districts filled on all of my planets, I am using Mining Guilds and all bonuses I could get. I might be able to get 50-100 minerals more by micromanaging genetic modification, but it won't save me, merely delay the inevitable by a decade or so.
Upload a save an I'll figure out a solution.
 

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[...] ...still no buffs to ringworlds from what I can tell.
I am still not sure why people want that. Ringworlds are fine in my eyes. They have a role and they are good at it.
 
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They are good at farming and generators. That's about it.
[...]
Gaia worlds and ecumenopolises are just better, even though you can make ringworlds do decently with a ton of work. I'm still experimenting to see if I missed something, but the building cap and missing Gaia bonus make it pretty hard.
Yeah, see that is the thing I don't get - it's a completely different niche. The one thing everything has in common is Habitability (which is quite important for multi-species empires, particularly Xenophiles). Apart from that:

Gaia Planets give extra output and happiness.
Ecumenopoli give you efficient manufacturing and potential living space at the cost of resource deposits.
Ringworlds give you unlimited E and F deposits and a massive amount of living space.
Habitats give you building slots, for a noticeable alloy upkeep

Maybe I just had so much time to adjust to the lack of M deposits that I don't really care about that anymore?
 

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[...]
But what is living space good for? Pops don't give you naval cap passively anymore. The only thing those pops can do is work in buildings, and no matter how massive the ringworlds are you still get the same amount of buildings there.
I mean, it is simple: More pops = more yields. Yes, they don't offer the *best* yield (M), but it is still better than having to compromise on your growth. Both Technicians and Farmers are solid late game jobs, and Clerks become quite potent when you have the boosting techs in place, since they allow you to shift M use from Consumer Goods to Alloys. So while you can't produce more M per se, you can still increase M availability for your other industries.

More building slots would provide more efficiency, but it is not like the Ringworld is lacking them. I usually end up with 220 pops on my Agrarian Idyll Ring Worlds, and roughly half of those are employed in buildings, so I don't even need to upgrade all of them.

[...]
The ringworld's advantage just doesn't seem big enough. The type of world that's the most costly and requires the most perks and such to make good shouldn't be dubiously comparable to the other options.
I mean, if Ring Worlds where an unlock on their own that would be the case. But they are not. Which is a problem of its own, as someone above has already pointed out.

As it is, Ring Worlds provide sustainable living space that will increase the power of your empire even if you run out of planets to colonize or conquer. I don't see how that is weak or bad.
 

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I haven't built a ringworld, so forgive my ignorance, but how much energy can a ringworld filled with generator districts create? And if you enslave the POPs working the generators, can you easily beat the Dyson Sphere?[...]
Let me load an older save of mine and check...

...there we go:
vnJ4A7X.jpg


That's with a bunch of repeatables, Social Welfare, a pretty good governour, Agrarian Idyll and no slavery, though. So I'd say deduct ~10% from the E output while reducing the CG demand by quite a bit, then adjust for slavery. This would put it at around ~1000E before upkeep and slavery effects, which means a full Ringworld is ~4k Energy or ~3200E + ~550 CGs.
 
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Hmm, the relative value of a ring world for energy generation versus the Dyson sphere might be substantially changed based on civics and traits that increase/decrease required amenities, housing, and consumer good output from trade. Interesting.

And you are running Inward Perfection and Agrarian Idyll, it seems, so you are running agrarian districts for housing and to make the ringworld a net food exporter. That's a nice chunk of trade value, too.

'Dat crime, tho. Why is crime so high? I see some crime effects. Are you just ignoring crime with amenities?
I mean, it is pretty much a "why not both?" situation - build one Segment, then go for the Sphere. It will take a few decades to fill anyway.

The crime is high because I had a Syndicate open a branch office, and as a fanatic pacifist there is nothing you can do to effectively remove it - if you close one down it sets a 20 year cooldown (will be reduced to 10 years), and they have those all over my empire. So I had to strike a deal, which is actually really OP for large planets. You will get the first crime event (underground, 1 criminal job + 1 per 33 crime), but the higher tier ones will never trigger on that planet. On top of that, you get +10 stability. Pretty sweet deal, actually (even though not very balanced).
 

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So, what's the consensus on habitats? Research focus? Or are they useful for running alloy buildings and synthetic resource buildings? [...]
I'd say habitats are excellent for manufacturing, freeing up building slots on your other planets for more important things.
I tend to go with a 4 house - 4 trade district split on them most of the time. If M income isn't an issue, 5-3 works as well - that allows you to fill all building slots, but you'll need several maxed out alloy or CG factories to employ pops.

They are also pretty decent for science. Each district equals a T2 slightly better lab, so the initial alloy upkeep is compensated for rather quickly eventually, but I actually haven't used them much in that capacity, since my planets are usually used for science and I tend to get more than enough from them.

A thing I am currently experimenting with is using them for naval capacity. Strongholds are a bit weak as a building, but building slots is what Habitats are all about. Problem is, you'll either need some other buildings to employ the leftovers OR use less housing (3-5 or even 2-5 split).
G6Xj5Va.jpg


This thing costs 5 alloys + 1 mote and provides 11 soldier jobs for a total of +44 naval capacity and a ton of trade value to pay for its upkeep. It also comes with an FTL inhibitor and 50 defence armies, a formidable bulwark. I'd say it is actually more effective at denying enemy fleets passage than a citadel, particularly once jumpdrives enter the field. During war you can just swap out the Stock Exchange for a Shield Generator to make it even more annoying to deal with (also great synegy with the 25% bombing damage reduction from Adaptability!). You can, of course, make the whole thing even more insane if you use more housing districts and either accept the unemployment or put down a few alloy plants.

Another option is storage Habitats. Probably best done with a 3-5 district split, since the silos have 2 clerk jobs each. Should give around 24k storage capacity, which can be quite helpful late game when wars actually are about alloy reserves and not just fleets in the field.

With ringworlds being finally not limited to one anymore. [...]
They never were, you could always build as many as you wanted.

edit: Fixed some numerical mistakes for Lab calculations.
 
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I did something similar but staffed the station with battle thralls to double as a recruitment center. Can the military academy be built on a habitat?
Yes, you can build it.

Habitats currently provide 3 researcher jobs, which is 1 better than T1, but 2 worse than T2. Are they buffed in an internal build somewhere? ;)
Oh yeah, I had the old numbers in mind. Goes to show how long it has been since I built them. :p