• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Everstill

Colonel
23 Badges
Jun 27, 2016
974
956
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
The discussion about Habitats appears with frequency on the subreddit of Stellaris, like this one:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Stellaris/comments/13b7fmi
AI make a massive habitat spam and this create big late game lag problem for people with modest PC and kills the point of reducing the number of habitable planets as the galaxy will be infested with Habitats anyway.

Can we get a simple option to Disable Habitats in galaxy generation? (except for Void Dwellers, khanates, etc...) And on top of that we can start talking about Habitat restrictions like Starbases have.
 
  • 10
  • 6Like
  • 1
Reactions:

TheHostName

Second Lieutenant
89 Badges
Mar 31, 2014
191
608
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Magicka
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • March of the Eagles
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
I have to agree. Ive now been part of some non competetive mp games and 2 out of 3 times we got screwed by massiv AI empires. Iam speaking about non scaling captain AI with 30 planets (including habitats) and 800k fleetpower in 2300. They had nothing to do so they started to spam Habitats.

A cap on them like starbases would really help.

Small addon: A look into the save found ot that they had between 30-50% of their planets as habitats.
 
Last edited:
  • 5Like
  • 2
Reactions:

RoverStorm

Curator's Pet Faerie Dragon, Kin of Ether Drake
74 Badges
Jul 27, 2016
1.602
572
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Prison Architect
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Island Bound
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
AI make a massive habitat spam and this create big late game lag problem for people with modest PC and kills the point of reducing the number of habitable planets as the galaxy will be infested with Habitats anyway.
Technically this is staring at an infected tree and saying the tree is the problem. The root of the problem isn't habitat spam, it's that pops are programmed in a way that the more pops there are the more they slow down the game. If every habitat had a hard-limit of 1 pop and used "automated buildings and districts", 100 habitats would have roughly the same performance impact as a single planet with 100 pops.

If you just disable habitats, the majority of tall playstyles die instantly. Ringworlds are too late and too expensive to help a tall player compete in the mid game. Even "wide" playstyles that run out of planets will suffer.

...this gives me an idea for an economic overhaul mod...
 

Everstill

Colonel
23 Badges
Jun 27, 2016
974
956
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
I have to agree. Ive now been part of some non competetive mp games and 2 out of 3 times we got screwed by massiv AI empires. Iam speaking about non scaling captain AI with 30 planets (including habitats) and 800k fleetpower in 2300. They had nothing to do so they started to spam Habitats.

A cap on them like starbases would really help.

Small addon: A look into the save found ot that they had between 30-50% of their planets as habitats.

I fully understand.

I try to play games with 0.25 or 0.5 planets to make them more valuable and reduce lag but it ends being useless as when you invade someone they have 20 Habitats all over the place. (and on top I get screwed because I don't want to spam habitats so I get weaker).

It's not a hard option to implement and there is already simple mods that disable the tech and AP, but I want to play ironman with achievements :(
 

Abdulijubjub

General
22 Badges
Jun 14, 2021
1.726
4.586
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Magicka
The habitat spam is a symptom. Adding a hard cap screws over pacifists (and void dwellers) and leaves no way to alleviate the actual problems that lead to the spam:
  1. It's always better to have more pops, and pop growth is capped without more growth queues. Habitats give more growth queues.
  2. Once you have more pops, the number of useful places you can put them is capped by number of planets, especially for building slots. Habitats give more spaces for jobs (researchers, soldiers, and refiners in particular, as they cannot come from districts until ringworlds)
  3. Once you're no longer claiming systems, a peaceful (or weak) empire has no more use for influence. Habitats give a marginal benefit in exchange for abundant influence.
#1 is hard to fix, but habitat's interaction with it isn't. I wouldn't want habitats to not give growth queues, but they really shouldn't really give a full growth queue (unless you're void dwellers). If they gave the inverse of ringworld/ecumenopolis bonuses (negated for void dwellers), that would be great. If an ecumenopolis grows 25% more pops because it's effectively 3 planets stapled together, though with urbanization reduction in size, then a habitat should grow fewer pops because it's (by default) only half a planet, and it caps out at the equivalent of size 12 (with even fewer building slots).

#3 is hopefully (partially) solved by the AI now actually knowing how to build orbital rings. That will create a different problem (an enormous spam of ruined rings whenever the crisis rolls around which take up megastructure slots to rebuild/in the outline, and which weirdly duplicate), but that's a separate issue.

#2 and #3 would also be partially solved by adding more influence sinks:
  • if you could keep developing the habitats you have, with reasonable costs (instead of "pay 150 influence to build a whole new habitat, with a new queue and new building slots or 50 influence to add 4 more districts with no queue/building slots"), players would have less need to spam habitats, and the AI could remain competitive while also not spamming habitats. If that expansion also partially undid the reduced growth effects I proposed as a solution to #1, so much the better.
  • if the mineral (though not influence) cost of ecumenopoleis and build time scaled with planet size (or just the AI was taught to be more more clever with them), then both players and the AI could make more rational decisions about encasing basically every planet that isn't producing basic resources, which will give you more growth and save on district sprawl (with free building slots). It's maybe weird that encasing everything is the right decision, but it would be at least better gameplay than habitats everywhere.
  • if planets were just generically expandable with influence (or more terraforming candidates were available at huge influence cost), there would be a better answer than "just build more habitats"
Just restricting habitats is a bandaid solution, with tons of negative effects. It's only good for people who conquer constantly, and hence are both inconvenienced by habitat spam and also have other uses for influence.

As an example of what the fix for #1 might look like: Void Dweller could give +40% growth on habitats, -10% growth everywhere except habitats. Habitats come with a -60% growth/assembly penalty, by default (note that this result in Void Dwellers having almost the same net growth, -20%, by default). Habitat expansion costs 75 influence, gives 2 districts and a building slot each, and reduces the grown penalty by 20% (-60%, -40%, and -20% for the 3 expansion levels). So 75 influence buys 2 districts, a building slot, and 20% of a growth queue, whether you're expanding or building more (though you get free building slots for tech/traditions/AP, which is fine). Void dwellers will ultimately come out ahead (-10% growth compared to current on two of their starting habitats and all newly built ones, +10% on their big starting one, and +30% total when they get everything fully upgraded), but it will cost them much more influence to get everything maxed out. For everyone else, habitat spam will be less profitable, and habitat expansion will be equally profitable to spam, resulting in less spam (and an AI that can be programmed to always expand before building more without artificially crippling it).

The end result is that Habitats will feel even more cramped than before (a stated design goal), by default, but when you expand them, they should give you (roughly) the same things you got from building two habitats before for the same cost, except with fewer spaces for planet uniques (though assembly ones will be equal, with fewer pops), less sprawl, and less noise on the galaxy map.
 
Last edited:
  • 4
  • 1Like
Reactions:

Everstill

Colonel
23 Badges
Jun 27, 2016
974
956
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
Technically this is staring at an infected tree and saying the tree is the problem. The root of the problem isn't habitat spam, it's that pops are programmed in a way that the more pops there are the more they slow down the game. If every habitat had a hard-limit of 1 pop and used "automated buildings and districts", 100 habitats would have roughly the same performance impact as a single planet with 100 pops.

If you just disable habitats, the majority of tall playstyles die instantly. Ringworlds are too late and too expensive to help a tall player compete in the mid game. Even "wide" playstyles that run out of planets will suffer.

...this gives me an idea for an economic overhaul mod...

I know the problem are the Pops, but we can't help but accept that Stellaris will never be able to hold that much things happening without massive lag. And I prefer one single planet with 100 pops than 100 Habitats all over the place that makes the Wars very tedious.

I want to play with valuable planets and not have the massive late game lag and tedious War invasions of 40 habitats because of the AI habitat spam.
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:

TheHostName

Second Lieutenant
89 Badges
Mar 31, 2014
191
608
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Magicka
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • March of the Eagles
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
Technically this is staring at an infected tree and saying the tree is the problem. The root of the problem isn't habitat spam, it's that pops are programmed in a way that the more pops there are the more they slow down the game.
The game rules about galaxy settings are specifially about mitigating late game lag. Habitats circumvent this "mechanic". Thats what needs to be changed, since the "more pops=more calculation" situation will never change.
If you just disable habitats, the majority of tall playstyles die instantly. Ringworlds are too late and too expensive to help a tall player compete in the mid game. Even "wide" playstyles that run out of planets will suffer.
Nobody wants to disable Habitats. Just put a cap on it. Like (Starbases/4)+some extra from picking the habitat accentionperk + Void dweller bonus. Stuff like this could help.

Btw the "hardcap" doesnt need to be one. Just increase cost in a meaningfull way like with starbases when you go over it.
 
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:

RoverStorm

Curator's Pet Faerie Dragon, Kin of Ether Drake
74 Badges
Jul 27, 2016
1.602
572
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Prison Architect
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Island Bound
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
Just restricting habitats is a bandaid solution, with tons of negative effects. It's only good for people who conquer constantly, and hence are both inconvenienced by habitat spam and also have other uses for influence.
I 100% agree with your post, but I will say I think the OP doesn't actually care about the "balance" or "gameplay" reason to reduce habitats. His only complaint was on the PERFORMANCE impact, which isn't even really caused by "habitats" but instead by POPS.

Specifically pop ethics and pop jobs are the enemies of PC performance. The other third cause of bad performance is Graphics, especially late-game fleet quantities. I unironically recommend Gigastructures for poor GPU's on otherwise good PC's because it replaces hundreds of end-game fleets of hundreds of battleships with "Battle Star System" as a "Ship". Of course the downside of Gigastructures is it does absolutely NOTHING to reduce pop headcount.


Scratch that, OP ninja-posted me and proved my words incorrect.
 

Abdulijubjub

General
22 Badges
Jun 14, 2021
1.726
4.586
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Magicka
Nobody wants to disable Habitats. Just put a cap on it. Like (Starbases/4)+some extra from picking the habitat accentionperk + Void dweller bonus. Stuff like this could help.
Starbases/4 is saying "conquerors who don't want habitats get to build lots of habitats, while those who are struck in their systems and actually want habitats are capped".

Starbases scale with systems owned. If you own lots of systems, you don't need habitats. If you added a cap, it should absolutely not scale with starbase cap. Though it would be reasonably ok to have all the techs/traditions/APs that gave starbase cap also contribute, in parallel, to a habitat cap. As long as it doesn't scale with systems owned like starbase cap does. "You are allowed to have more habitats the more systems you own" makes no sense, for habitats' role in the game.
 
  • 3
Reactions:

Abdulijubjub

General
22 Badges
Jun 14, 2021
1.726
4.586
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Magicka
I 100% agree with your post, but I will say I think the OP doesn't actually care about the "balance" or "gameplay" reason to reduce habitats. His only complaint was on the PERFORMANCE impact, which isn't even really caused by "habitats" but instead by POPS.

Specifically pop ethics and pop jobs are the enemies of PC performance. The other third cause of bad performance is Graphics, especially late-game fleet quantities. I unironically recommend Gigastructures for poor GPU's on otherwise good PC's because it replaces hundreds of end-game fleets of hundreds of battleships with "Battle Star System" as a "Ship". Of course the downside of Gigastructures is it does absolutely NOTHING to reduce pop headcount.


Scratch that, OP ninja-posted me and proved my words incorrect.
It's worth noting that my proposed solution involves severely limiting the number of extra pops you get from habitats. Right now, 150 influence buys you 100% of a growth queue and assembly queue. I'm proposing cutting that down to 150->40% for everyone but void dwellers (though growth rate bonuses would mess with that ratio).
 

Everstill

Colonel
23 Badges
Jun 27, 2016
974
956
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
I 100% agree with your post, but I will say I think the OP doesn't actually care about the "balance" or "gameplay" reason to reduce habitats. His only complaint was on the PERFORMANCE impact, which isn't even really caused by "habitats" but instead by POPS.

Specifically pop ethics and pop jobs are the enemies of PC performance. The other third cause of bad performance is Graphics, especially late-game fleet quantities. I unironically recommend Gigastructures for poor GPU's on otherwise good PC's because it replaces hundreds of end-game fleets of hundreds of battleships with "Battle Star System" as a "Ship". Of course the downside of Gigastructures is it does absolutely NOTHING to reduce pop headcount.


Scratch that, OP ninja-posted me and proved my words incorrect.

Oh no, you are kind of half-correct. Balance and gameplay reasons of Habitat are secondary because the main reason (massive lag) makes everything else not matter.

The gameplay impact of Habitats are added to the performance impact as this: late game the game becomes slower and slower, so when you get a war, now you have a game that is lagging a lot and the war will drag on for a longe time because you have to conquer the 40 habitats one by one in an already bad performance late game.

The habitat gameplay feeds the bad gameplay loop caused by the poor performance caused by the habitat spam itself.
 

TheHostName

Second Lieutenant
89 Badges
Mar 31, 2014
191
608
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Magicka
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • March of the Eagles
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
Starbases/4 is saying "conquerors who don't want habitats get to build lots of habitats, while those who are struck in their systems and actually want habitats are capped".

Starbases scale with systems owned. If you own lots of systems, you don't need habitats. If you added a cap, it should absolutely not scale with starbase cap. Though it would be reasonably ok to have all the techs/traditions/APs that gave starbase cap also contribute, in parallel, to a habitat cap. As long as it doesn't scale with systems owned like starbase cap does. "You are allowed to have more habitats the more systems you own" makes no sense, for habitats' role in the game.
Good point starbases might not be the best basis then. Well some other hard number might do.

Otherwise your suggestion for reduced pop growth on habitats except for void dwellers (and some other edge cases maybe) might be an interesting solution aswell.
Cause I 100% ended up spamming habitats just for more pop growth to keep up with other empires. Doesnt really makes sense to se habitats give such an extreme boost to your empires pop growth if you have them take up a substantial fraction of your planets.
 

RoverStorm

Curator's Pet Faerie Dragon, Kin of Ether Drake
74 Badges
Jul 27, 2016
1.602
572
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Prison Architect
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Island Bound
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
I know the problem are the Pops, but we can't help but accept that Stellaris will never be able to hold that much things happening without massive lag. And I prefer one single planet with 100 pops than 100 Habitats all over the place that makes the Wars very tedious.
"we can't help but accept" can also be applied to habitats themselves. By this logic, we can't help but accept that Stellaris will never be able to hold lots of pops without massive lag, and someone out there prefers 100 habitats because they like RP and hate war and like screwing over the war mongering players. I don't find this train of thought convincing.
Also I disagree with the premise that we can't help but accept that Stellaris cannot handle lots of pops without lag. Remove jobs and ethics and automatic resettlment and suddenly the lag from lots of pops disappears. And I can certainly think of ways to overhaul the game to get rid of pop jobs and ethics without changing the core gameplay.
The game rules about galaxy settings are specifially about mitigating late game lag. Habitats circumvent this "mechanic". Thats what needs to be changed, since the "more pops=more calculation" situation will never change.
"More pops = more calculations" actually can be changed. Ethics can be easily divorced from pops in a method that reduces lag. Jobs are harder, but there are also ways to do this too.
Nobody wants to disable Habitats. Just put a cap on it. Like (Starbases/4)+some extra from picking the habitat accentionperk + Void dweller bonus. Stuff like this could help.
Capping Habitats is more or less the same thing as disabling it. Especially for Void Dwellers.

Also as a general rule, "flat limits" for anything is very bad game design because besides shattering some player's "immursion", it is the game saying "you can't do this".
The best games are ones where you go "wait you can DO that?!?" and never ones where you are going "oh the game is stopping me from doing the thing I enjoyed doing".
 
  • 3
  • 1
Reactions:

currylambchop

Star eater gang (she/her)
42 Badges
Nov 25, 2016
3.012
3.606
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
The habitat spam is a symptom. Adding a hard cap screws over pacifists (and void dwellers) and leaves no way to alleviate the actual problems that lead to the spam:
its ai that’s the problem. It will spam habitats everywhere. It’s not habitats fault
 
  • 1
Reactions:

RoverStorm

Curator's Pet Faerie Dragon, Kin of Ether Drake
74 Badges
Jul 27, 2016
1.602
572
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Prison Architect
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Island Bound
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
As long as we are discussing habitats and wars, I should mention that I personally think that general habitats shouldn't be a "true" planet in war terms. If your home is bombed on a planet, you can go hide in the wilderness or in a cave. If your home is bombed on a habitat, you don't exactly have a lot of places you can just "flee". It makes somewhat more sense that a habitat not specifically built for being a giant fortress would just surrender on account of being way too fragile a living space.

Except against genocidals, of course. Zealous democracies probably also shouldn't bend to slavers.
 
  • 2
Reactions:

Abdulijubjub

General
22 Badges
Jun 14, 2021
1.726
4.586
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Magicka
its ai that’s the problem. It will spam habitats everywhere. It’s not habitats fault
The AI could be programmed to not spam habitats, but then it would just be crippling itself. I would rather habitats be fixed to where spamming isn't the optimal choice, and then the AI can be programmed to spam as little as possible and still be competitive.

If the game mechanic, played optimally, results in really annoying micro spam and endless lag, then I'd say the mechanic is the problem.
 
  • 2
  • 1Like
Reactions:

currylambchop

Star eater gang (she/her)
42 Badges
Nov 25, 2016
3.012
3.606
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
The AI could be programmed to not spam habitats, but then it would just be crippling itself. I would rather habitats be fixed to where spamming isn't the optimal choice, and then the AI can be programmed to spam as little as possible and still be competitive.
I don't think that spamming habitats is the optimal play. The AI is just stupid and spams them regardless.

Spamming habitats is bad for the same reason that vassal spam is good, empire sprawl.
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:

Abdulijubjub

General
22 Badges
Jun 14, 2021
1.726
4.586
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Magicka
I don't think that spamming habitats is the optimal play. The AI is just stupid and spams them regardless.

Spamming habitats is bad for the same reason that vassal spam is good, empire sprawl.
Spam habitats and give them to your vassals. Use the influence from vassals to make more habitats to give to more vassals.

Every system without a useful planet is another potential spot for a single system vassal with a habitat, or two (or three). This type of habitat spam isn't any better. War doesn't become less annoying because there are 1000 vassals each with their own habitats.

And the one authority type that can't spin off vassals (hives) gets 0 sprawl from colonies, so they can spam to their hearts' content to get as much growth as they like without any extra sprawl at all (beyond 1 spawning drone to hold the fort).

Spamming habitats is optimal if you have nothing else to spend influence on. Especially if you're penned in; in that case, you're too small to care about sprawl anyway, and your growth required will be low enough that the extra growth queue/job space gives a lot of marginal utility.
 
Last edited:
  • 1
Reactions: