guide to royal marriages, personal unions and claim throne.

[atwix]

Dhaeman, after you use console commands to test, you should let a month tick by, and only THEN your commands will be effect.

If you already do that, so much the better.

Thanks for experimenting.

And yes, succession wars are one of the most complex parts of the PU game.

Its not for nothing that I say "the mechanic eluded specialists on this forum for months" and "god knows what formulae the AI uses".

But tbh, I think I got the succession war mechanic covered quite well in the guide, even though it still lacks explanation as to WHY things happen as they do.

Regarding nations inheriting one another without dynasty sharing: the formulae behind it still eludes me.

Inheritance is SO rare ingame (if you exclude nations inheriting PU subjects), that it is hard to observe a reason for it. And without a "best guess" as to why it happes, it gets hard to console test it.

Someday, we'll crack the entire PU formulae box... Or so I hope!

 

[David the Gnome]

I still think whether you get the succession war and PU or just the noble is unrelated to the strength of your rivals. It looks like it's random for unique dynasties, and otherwise tied to same dynasty countries' base tax.

Also, although waiting until a month ticks by can't hurt, the message usually changes instantly if it's going to change at all.

 

[atwix]

Well, I have seen succession status change from "get noble" to succession war, after my rivals regained strength military wise, after bashing them.

IF you have high military rating yourself, its probabaly LESS likely to get succession wars. If you are the most powerful dynasty nation of all dynasty partners, its unlikely too.

Succession wars seem to trigger MORE if you are weak military rating wise, versus your rivals and/or dynasty partners. Its what I observe if other Succession wars. Usually the attacker is a lot more Powerful then the nation getting the free PU subject.

Thats all derived from observations. If its actually hardcoded the way I say it here, I don't know. I made my best guess in the guide

 

[Necurok]

Ok am i right that for example if i play Spain and i don't rivalize France Austria and England i won't get any succesion wars?

 

[atwix]

not really. But you will get less chance to get succession wars.

If you don't rival big powerful military nations, then only your royal marriage partners can attack in a succession war, or nations with same dynasty as the nation you want as PU subject.

Easiest way to get succession wars, is to rival a big bad military nation, when you are a SMALL weak nation. Like savoy rivalling FRANCE. France will then (likely) contest any succesion, even if all you got is just a royal marriage with the heirless target nation.

 

[Aard Vark]

Easiest way to get succession wars, is to rival a big bad military nation, when you are a SMALL weak nation. Like savoy rivalling FRANCE. France will then (likely) contest any succesion, even if all you got is just a royal marriage with the heirless target nation.

You need to gain a lot of territory to rival France as Savoy now. Rival choices are strictly limited in the current patch.

 

[atwix]

Well, just make sure france rivals you, and then rival them back And taking 6 provinces from them, releasing guyenne etc, can still Incite them to rival you, I hope? If not, then I don't know what will

 

[birincikalite]

Direct inheritance used to be a common outcome of the Succession mechanic in EU III, but it seems a lot more rare in EU IV.

 

[dhaeman]

Hey atwix,

I did let everything run for a month or so initially but noticed no change from what the instant update displayed. So I don't let time pass anymore. I know console commands aren't necessarily "real world" scenarios, but some interesting observations arose after playing with console commands for multiple hours:

- Having strong RM partners and rivals did not seem to greatly impact succession wars occurring (though the mechanics of who opposes you are exactly as the guide indicates). That's the only key difference I noticed running console commands.
- Instant inheritances (of which I only saw 3) could all be altered by changing the date. And all of them turned into succession wars. This is not statistically significant, but it's possible inheritances are upgraded succession wars.
- By far the biggest factor in succession wars occurring is whether or not that nation shares a dynasty with another nation. Nations that share dynasties are much more likely to be embroiled in succession wars. (I guess SOMEONE is going to take the throne, and the strongest tax base says "that'll be me, bub").
- Altering the date also turned some succession wars into nobles rising to the throne (but only in the case of non shared dynasty successions).

Pretty much everything suggests a multi-factor element in determining the WHY of succession wars but playing detective is fun, and I figured it was worth at least looking into. Hopefully it's useful!

 

[MetalTaberna]

Poland, January 1473.
Two years ago, I happened to see that France was heirless thanks to this thread reminding me to keep the Disputed Succession flag on all the time. (I think it was a hunting accident, considering De Valois was already 48 at the time.) Not much later, France offered an alliance and I felt like I had won the game (sadly I forgot to screencap it). I felt king of the world, being allied with Lithuania, Austria, Brandenburg and France.
And now the day has come. Today, I just happened to scroll by France on the day a Jagiellon was put on the throne, heirlessly. I could claim throne, but what do I do? I'm at 47 prestige and France is at 66.

What do I do?
Wait for the next time they're heirless I suppose - I'll never get my prestige up in time. And besides, I don't think a force PU war would work, I don't know whether my allies would come to help even. Also, France is much bigger in basetax than I. Could I even vassalize them?

 

[birincikalite]

Poland, January 1473.
Two years ago, I happened to see that France was heirless thanks to this thread reminding me to keep the Disputed Succession flag on all the time. (I think it was a hunting accident, considering De Valois was already 48 at the time.) Not much later, France offered an alliance and I felt like I had won the game (sadly I forgot to screencap it). I felt king of the world, being allied with Lithuania, Austria, Brandenburg and France.
And now the day has come. Today, I just happened to scroll by France on the day a Jagiellon was put on the throne, heirlessly. I could claim throne, but what do I do? I'm at 47 prestige and France is at 66.

What do I do?
Wait for the next time they're heirless I suppose - I'll never get my prestige up in time. And besides, I don't think a force PU war would work, I don't know whether my allies would come to help even. Also, France is much bigger in basetax than I. Could I even vassalize them?

Why is Lithuania your ally though?

 

[Viperswhip]

It doesn't seem to matter. I rival England and France in every Castile game I play, the succession war happens or says it will happen against Burgundy (my rm and ally), even if we haven't done anything to France and England yet.

 

[David the Gnome]

Hey atwix,

I did let everything run for a month or so initially but noticed no change from what the instant update displayed. So I don't let time pass anymore. I know console commands aren't necessarily "real world" scenarios, but some interesting observations arose after playing with console commands for multiple hours:

- Having strong RM partners and rivals did not seem to greatly impact succession wars occurring (though the mechanics of who opposes you are exactly as the guide indicates). That's the only key difference I noticed running console commands.
- Instant inheritances (of which I only saw 3) could all be altered by changing the date. And all of them turned into succession wars. This is not statistically significant, but it's possible inheritances are upgraded succession wars.
- By far the biggest factor in succession wars occurring is whether or not that nation shares a dynasty with another nation. Nations that share dynasties are much more likely to be embroiled in succession wars. (I guess SOMEONE is going to take the throne, and the strongest tax base says "that'll be me, bub").
- Altering the date also turned some succession wars into nobles rising to the throne (but only in the case of non shared dynasty successions).

Pretty much everything suggests a multi-factor element in determining the WHY of succession wars but playing detective is fun, and I figured it was worth at least looking into. Hopefully it's useful!

As I mentioned some time ago in this thread, shared dynasty countries will fall into a PU rather than get a noble if and only if at least one country with the same dynasty has more than half their base tax, provided none of the known PU blocking factors (e.g target is at war) apply.

 

[MetalTaberna]

Thanks for your reactions.

Yeah, it says Succession War between France and Lithania on that one screen, but I'm never really sure how to interpret it. Because it also mentions all those other countires that have RMs with France, regency for this, regency for that, etc.
Lithuania, France, me: we're all Jagiellons. Both are bigger than me, I think. I haven't checked Lithuania's BT actually (where can I do that?), they do have a lot of poor provinces.

I'm not sure why you're asking why I'm allies to Lithuania. They were my first allies (mission probably), the others came later. France actually offered me an alliance after our RM. I did rival Muscovy, who is my strongest rival right now (the others are Bohemia and Hungary).

So as long as France is under 200 BT, there might not be a succession war?

 

[atwix]

Ahh succession wars...

Now thats something worthy to delve into using consoles.

When I wrote this guide in 1.7, succession wars with just RM done were easy. Big rivals contested everything.

Nowadays, its lot harder to rival big bad nations early on, hence getting succession wars that way is out.

BUT, as viperswhip says, sometimes doing RM TO a big bad nation can provoke succession wars, since YOUR rm partners can also attack you in a succession war.

Thats why Burgundy attacks.

Maybe, just maybe, also the personality of the ruler might be involved. If its militaristic ruler, maybe THEN he will attack, and France not, because they have diplomatic ruler?

As in France says "no thx go ahead burgundy I don't believe in agressiveness as a diplomat" even though they outnumber them in military might, only to sit back and watch Castille and Burgundy duke it out when England king dies heirless, only to attack the loser after.

It always felt something else is also at play, maybe thats it.


@MetalTaberna: Just try to keep prestige high. Do a war versus your rival, and prey France gets no heir or a weak heir. You can claim throne then. Regardign succession saying France vs lithuania: thats a tooltip bug. A nation can never be defender in its own succession war. What it does mean is that lithuania has same dynasty as you and will likely attack you in succession war over France, if the new same dynasty ruler dies heirless.

 

[1nf3ct3d]

btw im pretty sure if it says succession war xx vs yy, whoever is xx will get the pu for free

 

[atwix]

I dunno for sure. I got that tooltip for a few months when I force PU'd Japan, and it changed to a "noble will succeed" after few months.

 

[dullum]

Guess who's rivalled to both! This guy! At least France and Portugal joined, I guess.

I was never married to any of them, so I guess my high military ranking got me the event?

 

[chrnno]

Guess who's rivalled to both! This guy! At least France and Portugal joined, I guess.

I was never married to any of them, so I guess my high military ranking got me the event?

To be eligible for a succession war besides same dinasty/royal marriage you can also be rival of the country and then you are the most powerful so the choice goes to you.

 

[atwix]

Nice. Its actually harder sometimes to get in a situation where you can AGRESSIVELY contest a succession in a succession war (with the popup) then it it to be defensive side.

And yes, I'd assume its your military rating. I always have, and no case so far ever made me think otherwise.

I toyed with the idea it might have to do with personality of ruler ALSO deciding who gets the pop up.. But that sounds bit weird in relation to human players.

Thanks for posting the screenshot

P.s.: another proof Spain is very vulnerable to land up in a PU under someone, due to not having many natural royal marriage partners. Same as Muscovy/russia. No RM= low heir chance= more chance to land up in PU.