guide to royal marriages, personal unions and claim throne.

[atwix]

I have a RM with Aragon as Savoy, does a trastamara succed to the throne because castile shares dynasty and has more base tax than me or is it because aragon is bigger than i am (they have nearly double my basetax atm)

so aragon gets trastamara when they are heirless? What RM does aragon have, apart from yours?

 

[atwix]

Look at what you've made me become!

Here I am, going to do a standard exodus re-reconquista run, but now I feel compelled to play the PU gam...Nasrids will rule Europe.

Let's see where this takes us

how can you be married to ottomans while being catholic? Does a rm from bein sunni stay if you flip to catholic?

 

[bbqftw]

I think it stays but you can't re-RM them after the ruler dies.

 

[Stepkick]

Hey I read your guide and while I absorbed most of its content in (or at least I hope I did), I have a quick question?

So what matters in Scenario A? Prestige with RM to the nation (and/or) Base tax with RM to the nation.
Sometimes I read one sometimes I read the other, so it is a bit confusing as to what is important statistic.

I also had the scenario in which I was A (Prussia, Hohenzollern) married B (Saxony) and C (The Palatinate) got my dynasty due to their ties with B (Saxony). However, they are never in a disputed succession status, in fact most of the time their heirs have stronger claims and better stats than my own monarchs. Is there a way I can force them into a disputed succession state so that I can enforce a claim?

So when I start a game as Prussia there are many disputed successions, England for one always has the War of Roses event looming, Poland has an interregnum but somehow always manages to escape PU's. So I am a bit confused as to why I am unable to successfully manage even one PU

 

[bbqftw]

I think "house of X" is dependent on base tax and not prestige at all.

I also had the scenario in which I was A (Prussia, Hohenzollern) married B (Saxony) and C (The Palatinate) got my dynasty due to their ties with B (Saxony). However, they are never in a disputed succession status, in fact most of the time their heirs have stronger claims and better stats than my own monarchs. Is there a way I can force them into a disputed succession state so that I can enforce a claim?

watch disputed succession like a hawk, and keep tabs on their events. Heirs die a lot more often than you think (just think of all the times you lose a great heir to hunting accident )

Early on, you don't have a lot of basetax as Brandenburg, so its hard for you to get your dynasty in interregnum / no heir situations. Your focus should be on basetax.

 

[bbqftw]

------>the agressive claimant of the disputed succesion can change: this is tricky, noone really knows what formulae the ai uses to decide who will aggresively contest the succesion. Usually it as a rival of the target nation, but it can also be someone of your dynasty if the target country is of your dynasty, or it can be a powerful ally (that has RM) of the target nation. Just because the aggressive claimants all were in line to contest the succesion, and the game recalculates their odds each month.

There's definitely an alternative possibility for aggressive claimant. I've had strong military rating allies declare succession war on me, despite not being allied, same dynasty, or even RM'd to the nation being PU'd.

In case you're fighting a war with said ally, them declaring a succession war on you will take them out of the 1st war! This is especially funny when they were the war leader in the 1st war:

frrrrraaaaance

 

[Stepkick]

I think "house of X" is dependent on base tax and not prestige at all.


watch disputed succession like a hawk, and keep tabs on their events. Heirs die a lot more often than you think (just think of all the times you lose a great heir to hunting accident )

Early on, you don't have a lot of basetax as Brandenburg, so its hard for you to get your dynasty in interregnum / no heir situations. Your focus should be on basetax.

Ah ok cool, thanks. Apparently, the game never makes mention of the base tax aspect of who gets to promote their noble onto the throne. Also whilst it is easy to see your own base tax in the income tab. It is harder to check out other competitors base tax. I guess I will rely on Ledger for that which does a rather poor job of arranging according to criteria selected. I would hope there is a tooltip somewhere that mentions base tax being a contributor in decided which noble ascends to the throne. I used to imagine it was prestige.

 

[atwix]

Hey I read your guide and while I absorbed most of its content in (or at least I hope I did), I have a quick question?

So what matters in Scenario A? Prestige with RM to the nation (and/or) Base tax with RM to the nation.
Sometimes I read one sometimes I read the other, so it is a bit confusing as to what is important statistic.

I also had the scenario in which I was A (Prussia, Hohenzollern) married B (Saxony) and C (The Palatinate) got my dynasty due to their ties with B (Saxony). However, they are never in a disputed succession status, in fact most of the time their heirs have stronger claims and better stats than my own monarchs. Is there a way I can force them into a disputed succession state so that I can enforce a claim?

So when I start a game as Prussia there are many disputed successions, England for one always has the War of Roses event looming, Poland has an interregnum but somehow always manages to escape PU's. So I am a bit confused as to why I am unable to successfully manage even one PU

question 1: i used to think it was prestige aswell, but console testers proved me wrong. Maybe you read outdated guide on other forum, hence confusion. Prestige only matters in claiming a throne.

question 2: no. But as bbqftw said, set all european countries as interesting and watch their events. Some heir might die. And watch disputed succession window frequently, for heirs that died of natural causes.

question 3: Getting a PU needs hawking, as bbqftw says. You got to include preying and hawking for dead heirs and old kings into your gameplay.

 

[Stepkick]

question 1: i used to think it was prestige aswell, but console testers proved me wrong. Maybe you read outdated guide on other forum, hence confusion. Prestige only matters in claiming a throne.

question 2: no. But as bbqftw said, set all european countries as interesting and watch their events. Some heir might die. And watch disputed succession window frequently, for heirs that died of natural causes.

question 3: Getting a PU needs hawking, as bbqftw says. You got to include preying and hawking for dead heirs and old kings into your gameplay.

Thanks mate! Is there a guide anywhere on what pop ups are vital and what I can avoid also how to set nations as interesting and get their pop ups
Once again thanks, very well answered concise and to the point really helpful!

 

[atwix]

Thanks mate! Is there a guide anywhere on what pop ups are vital and what I can avoid also how to set nations as interesting and get their pop ups
Once again thanks, very well answered concise and to the point really helpful!

its in the guide.

4. *important tip*: message settings are crucial for this game of thrones. First and foremost, and this might be the most neglected aspect of eu4. Hidden popup and pause messages that you can enable, that are off by default. In message settings select "all" tab and enable the popup and pause for every herald possible for *every option" in the "to me", "from me", "interesting" and "other" categories.. Then, in the window above the map buttons select your interesting countries. I usually select whole europe, since you can't get PU over a country that isn't in your religion group. The result is that you can perfectly see when a new king comes to power, or when an event takes place that kills an heir of a country.

Example:Enable minor and major event popup and pause for interesting countries, for any event they get. Why? *If* that interesting country has 40+ king with a regency heir for example, and the target county gets the event that might kill their heir, you can see the outcome right after. No more AI unions without you having a clue. It netted me, yet again, a pu over a greater power, england... Their king was 40+, their heir got sick, and it left me opening to RM england and install a noble of my throne. King died year after, and i used the cb gain to start force union war. It took me 14 years of loans, looming bankruptcy and sky high war exhaustion when he died, but i won. All because i started eyeing them month after month, waiting for my chance in the game of thrones.

You can then later disable the popup and pause for message types you don't like (like what country gives military access to another etc) by changing it in the popup window (options at right bottom). Some important popups you should enable for popup and pause: when armies arrive at destination, when country gets new king, major and minor events for you, and for interesting countries (prepare to read ton of stuff, you *can* disable this but you might miss out on easy dynasty spread chances when a country' heir dies due to event), diplomats arriving back home, traders arriving back home, what country gets succesion war with another, when a a country starts integrating a vassal and so on and so forth.

 

[Stepkick]

Yea so I started a game with all messages selected as pause and pop-up and now and disabling them one at a time based on their level of important I am just about where I am comfortable with the message settings. I also tried to select interesting nations in the lower right mini map however, it does not display any information on the same throughout the game, which is puzzling :wacko:

Anyway thank you for your help, I did manage to get a early PU with Anhalt an OPM, which as Bradenburg a 3 province electorate is not really that bad, problem is that Austria contested it, so yeah I think lesson learned I am not going to go for sure PU (i.e. Kings 60+ with no heir) especially at the start of the game and then have to brave Austria's 50 stacks alone :rofl:

P.S. in the map interesting nation information panel, for the message settings I did set all interesting nations actions to show on the map if that is what it means for message settings.

 

[Stepkick]

so aragon gets trastamara when they are heirless? What RM does aragon have, apart from yours?

I think when Aragon goes heirless, firstly Castille out of the RM partners (considering they are one) has a considerably higher base tax than Savoy, also if their monarch dies heirless and Castille has a RM during which, I believe there is a national event they get, Iberian Wedding that allows them to PU Aragon and if they are lucky Naples too! It is kind of the same deal with Burgundy and the HRE (usually Austria) and in rare cases Spain.

 

[jdavis86]

So as Italy (Savoy), I now have the same dynasty as Austria, though relations deteriorated to the point where royal marriages weren't sustainable.

Their ruler is 60 with no heir. If he does will I get some event to claim the throne?

 

[Stepkick]

So as Italy (Savoy), I now have the same dynasty as Austria, though relations deteriorated to the point where royal marriages weren't sustainable.

Their ruler is 60 with no heir. If he does will I get some event to claim the throne?

If you are the highest base tax among all other members of the dynasty. I you have the same dynasty as Austria I am guessing you are von Habsburg? If so other countries like Hungary also share the same dynasty. Basically whoever has the highest base tax among all the dynasties according to the guide is considered the patriach of the group of dynasties and will take over the throne either by fighting a rival of yours/target nation or another same dynasty nation. Regardless you will get drawn into a succession war and to increase your chances I suggest you royal marriage with Austria.

 

[jdavis86]

Austria actually became my dynasty earlier in the game. Quite lucky I'm sure. Unfortunately, their old ruler got a Habsburg heir. I guess via some event, even though it's not the current dynasty. So that's that.

 

[bbqftw]

yeah, Austria has a special event granting them a new heir if they ever lose Habsburg dynasty. You pretty much have to pull the trigger ASAP when they get your dyansty.

 

[David the Gnome]

I did some testing regarding succession wars.
Whether they trigger or not depends on base tax, not tax base.

Temples and capital bonuses do not matter, vassal/PU base tax does not matter. Only your owned province base tax matters. Cored or uncored does not matter. Overextension does not matter.
You will need to count every base tax of every province manually, since there is no place in the UI that displays just your base tax.


When a nation's dynasty ends by a king dying without a heir, other nations of the same dynasty will compete to form a PU with the dying king's nation.
They establish who gets to form the PU the normal way determined in the original post, likely. I'm not sure i haven't tested that.
Temples, capitals etc etc are likely in effect.

Like in the original post, whoever forms the leader in the union can be opposed and a succession war starts. If there is NOBODY to oppose the primary contestant, then a PU is formed outright without a war.

This is true. And to be clear: it works this way only in cases where the target's dynasty is also present in other countries. Whether or not you get the succession war when marrying a country with a unique dynasty still seems completely random (at least to me). If the target shares their dynasty with other nations, then whether a succession war triggers upon monarch death or a noble simply succeeds to the throne, depends on the base tax (and indeed, not tax base) of the largest same dynasty nation. If the largest same dynasty nation has more than half the amount of base tax of the target, then a succession war will occur. If the base tax of the largest same dynasty nation is 50% or less than that of the target, a noble will succeed to the throne.

Note that this does not take away from the fact that the winner (i.e. country that gets to PU or gets their dynasty on the target throne) is decided by highest tax base (not base tax). This means that if France has no heir and is married to Austria, a Von Habsburg might succeed to the throne, but it is Provence, the largest same dynasty country, that would need to grow to >50% of France's base tax if Austria is to get a succession war instead of just the dynasty.

As Karnak said, all this may be overruled by factors that make a succession war impossible, such as the target being at war or leading a personal union of its own.

By the way, you don't manually have to add up all the provinces' base tax to discover a country's total base tax value. If you look at the score comparison view in the ledger, you can mouse over a country's admin rating to see, among other variables, the rating derived from "provinces". This value multiplied by 100 equals that country's total base tax.

I playing with Lorraine had an alliance with France. Neither me nor France had a royal marriage with the target. The tooltip showed that a succesion war will happen betwen 2 of my rivals. I sent a marriage proposal. I was bigger than them so according with this guide I should be one of the fighters. It was accepted. When I checked the tooltip it said that a succesion war will happen. ¡¡¡Betwen me and France!!! It was a luck that a few months later an heir appeared. I did the same test several times with different countries. Each time that I was selected for a succesion war France was the rival. Without RM or same diansty. It was the same. France always was the rival.

the aggressive contestor in a succession war isn't always a rival. It can be your ally (or theirs).

What exactly the algorithm is for assigning aggressive contestors is beyond me. I made educated guess in the guide. But i think theres little doubt now that high military rating nations contest every PU their 'enemies' would get. France is very good at it, i agree.

A situation similar to alvya's was described in this thread about a month ago. Some console testing then revealed that the pool of countries eligible to become succession war aggressors, constists of:

1. countries with the same dynasty as the target
2. the claimant's rivals
3. the claimant's RM partners

As seems to be common knowledge by now, the country with the highest military rating among these is picked. Obviously, the last criterion can't be working as intended, but it does work. Since you'll often have a royal marriage with an ally (especially one like France), this is probably what causes succession wars with valuable alllies. A possible (albeit situational) solution is to rival a country with a higher military rating than your ally.

 

[magitsu]

Should I contest the spot for Polish throne? Seems costly and there's no chance of PU.
Maybe with Austria it's doable since it gets a shitload of +diprep bonuses.


Good guide. Gives plenty of interesting things to try.
For example as Portugal I found out that I must grow asap to be able to pick a big enough rival for good things to happen. Otherwise I end up facing CAS and my defensive RM with them will turn into a suicide.

 

[bbqftw]

Should I contest the spot for Polish throne? Seems costly and there's no chance of PU.

Poland / Commonwealth get an event in the 1600s that switches them from an Elective to Absolute monarchy after they massacre a lot of noble rebels. If your candidate is the PLC ruler when that switch happens, you can instantly claim throne and force PU them.

I've managed to pull this off as a country without any dip rep from ideas (you will want +2 diplo rep from diplomatic or influence at least, I also took the Zanzibar COTs to get the trading in ivory dip reputation bonus, it also helps to be an HRE prince as they get an addition diplo reputation point)

 

[atwix]

If the target shares their dynasty with other nations, then whether a succession war triggers upon monarch death or a noble simply succeeds to the throne, depends on the base tax (and indeed, not tax base) of the largest same dynasty nation. If the largest same dynasty nation has more than half the amount of base tax of the target, then a succession war will occur. If the base tax of the largest same dynasty nation is 50% or less than that of the target, a noble will succeed to the throne.

i'm more then willing to include this in the guide, as you folks proved me wrong in the past.

But let me get this right: do buildings and capital tax bonus matter in step A(just RM) or is it total province base tax (so minus temples and other tax buildings) across the board? Or only for succession wars?

Bit confused on that.

edit: thanks again for taking interest into console testing all of my assumptions folks!