Guessing at how the government types available for selection are determined

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Aumnivers

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Looking over the Ethos and the Governments pages on the wiki, I couldn't help but wonder how the availability of certain government types is determined, so here's my (probably incorrect) hypothesis for what makes government types available for selection:
330px-Government_types.png

From the top row to the bottom, we have Autocracies, Oligarchies, and Democracies. For lack of a better name, let us call the middle column the Centrist column. To the left of the Centrist column we have the Militarist and Spiritualist columns, and to the right we have the Pacifist and Materialist columns. The Ethics chosen, as seen in the full image in the fifth dev diary, are Xenophile and Pacifist. We see that the Pacifist and Materialist columns are accessible, and that Moral Democracy has been chosen.

Let us assume that up to two columns may be accessible at any time, that a column becomes accessible when you have taken a certain stance on the requisite Ethics lines - Militarist to access the Militarist column, for example - and that all Ethics affect the governments you are allowed to select from. Presumably, the only requirement to access the Centrist column is that you have access to only one other column. We can guess what the last two Ethical lines give us, but what could the first and second? My assumption is that being on the Collectivist side of things will shift the allowed government types up, so as to allow only Autocracies and Oligarchies, while being on the Individualist side of things will shift it down, so as to allow only Oligarchies and Democracies. However, as they have taken neither the Collectivist nor the Individualist side, they have access to all rows. Thus, with the Pacifist Ethic, they should have access to the entirety of the Centrist and Pacifist columns. However, presumably due to the Xenophile Ethic, the allowed government types have been shifted to the right by one - meaning they instead have access to the Pacifist and Materialist columns.

In summary, my guesses:
Collectivism shifts the allowed governments upwards, and Individualism shifts them downwards
Xenophobia shifts the allowed governments leftwards, and Xenophilia shifts them rightwards
Pacifism allows access to the Pacifist column, and Militarism access to the Militarist column
Spiritualism allows access to the Spiritualist column, and Materialism access to the Materialist column

Unfortunately, as we have only one data point, there isn't really a way to test my hypothesis.
 
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Alectron

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The government system has been discussed for a while, and I think now we have a somewhat clear understanding of how it works.

Xenophile/xenophobic and collectivist/individualist ethos do not affect the available governments. Instead, they affect policies and edicts.
I disagree with OP about central column, it is materialistic, while 5th column is a so called self-serving, which is almost always available. We have confirmations that materialistic monarchy is a despotic hegemony, oligarchy is a technocracy and democracy is a direct democracy. Their icons also make sense this way.
I also think the available governments would work this way:
1 spiritual, 2 collectivist - 2 and 5 columns.
1 spiritual, 1 pacifistic, 1 collectivist - 2, 4 and 5 columns.
2 spiritual, 1 pacifistic - only 2 column (fanatic)
2 collectivist, 1 xenophile - only 5 column (no focus)
 
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SIEGE-109

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Considering that Collectivism increases slavery tolerance, it's seems to represent the BAD kind of Communism. This means that individualism/collectivism would effect whether you can pick democratic or despotic regimes. Xenophobe/xenophile determines your options for foreign policy. So every pick has some effect on your government.
 

valergain

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Considering that Collectivism increases slavery tolerance, it's seems to represent the BAD kind of Communism. This means that individualism/collectivism would effect whether you can pick democratic or despotic regimes. Xenophobe/xenophile determines your options for foreign policy. So every pick has some effect on your government.

Wait what? Where did you get that about Collectivism? As I recall it's Xenophobia that increases slavery Tolerance?
 

SIEGE-109

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Seen the tooltips in screenshots and videos. Good luck finding them again. Collectivism increases your OWN slavery tolerance, xenophobia increases ALIEN slavery tolerance.
 

Safehold

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I would be more interested in rating them based on what type of leaders and traits are allowed to govern. Military leaders? Scientists? Regular politicians?

They are going to have a hell of a time balancing it, sort of like CK2 combat tactics and their numerical bonuses...
 

Krajzen

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I would be more interested in rating them based on what type of leaders and traits are allowed to govern. Military leaders? Scientists? Regular politicians?

They are going to have a hell of a time balancing it, sort of like CK2 combat tactics and their numerical bonuses...

Yeah. Personally I cannot imagine any situation where I'd take slavery bonus over such terrible difference in technological progress.
 
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Krajzen

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Xenophile/xenophobic and collectivist/individualist ethos do not affect the available governments. Instead, they affect policies and edicts.

Where did you get this info?

Anyway, this theory makes sense :p in this case it all would be pretty straightforward:

1st row - militarist
2nd - spiritual
3rd - materialist
4th - pacifist
5th - always possible
 

EddieTheLion

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"but there are always at least three to choose from; an oligarchy of some kind, a democracy or a monarchy."
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-5-empires-and-species.887487/

Collectivism and individualism will not limit you in that way, and you will not always have two categories to choose from.

A later review said that being an individualist would indeed prevent you from being a dictatorship, so that may have changed, or else there is a neutral column that is always available (or someone is just wrong). I don't think it would be the middle column though, it would be the last one, the one with representative democracy and plutocracy/corporate state/whatever moneybags represents in it. I'm 99% sure that the middle icon of the middle column is the technocracy government type, and like 80% sure that materialism is what unlocks that column. (I think some confusion has been sown over what materialism means, I don't think it means anything like consumerism or "greed", but instead probably represents a conflation of philosophical physicalism and something like techno-utopianism (which are not the same thing, but in humans (like myself) are often found together for whatever reason)).

...

I would say the columns go left to right militarist, spiritualist, materialist, pacifist, neutral (though IDK if the top and bottom neutral governments will always be available or will lock with indiviualist/collectivist), with xenophile/xenophobe not effecting government types (why should it, you could have a species-supremacist version of any of the types given)

The fifth dev diary also says that all but one of the dictatorship governments don't let you choose your successor (implying hereditary monarchies), which makes the hands-on-globe government something of a mystery. My guess, fitting the general idea of materialistic utopianism, would have been something like "totalitarian state", but if its a monarchy, I have no idea.
 
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Veracin

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A later review said that being an individualist would indeed prevent you from being a dictatorship, so that may have changed, or else there is a neutral column that is always available (or someone is just wrong). I don't think it would be the middle column though, it would be the last one, the one with representative democracy and plutocracy/corporate state/whatever moneybags represents in it. I'm 99% sure that the middle icon of the middle column is the technocracy government type, and like 80% sure that materialism is what unlocks that column. (I think some confusion has been sown over what materialism means, I don't think it means anything like consumerism or "greed", but instead probably represents a conflation of philosophical physicalism and something like techno-utopianism (which are not the same thing, but in humans (like myself) are often found together for whatever reason)).

...

I would say the columns go left to right militarist, spiritualist, materialist, pacifist, neutral (though IDK if the top and bottom neutral governments will always be available or will lock with indiviualist/collectivist), with xenophile/xenophobe not effecting government types (why should it, you could have a species-supremacist version of any of the types given)

The fifth dev diary also says that all but one of the dictatorship governments don't let you choose your successor (implying hereditary monarchies), which makes the hands-on-globe government something of a mystery. My guess, fitting the general idea of materialistic utopianism, would have been something like "totalitarian state", but if its a monarchy, I have no idea.

The hands on globe government is a Despotic Hegemony, meaning this state/group of planets or whatever is better than any other state/group of planets. It's like an ultranationalistic country.
 

Veracin

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Where did you get this info?

Anyway, this theory makes sense :p in this case it all would be pretty straightforward:

1st row - militarist
2nd - spiritual
3rd - materialist
4th - pacifist
5th - always possible

I see it as the first column, up to down, is militarist, second is spiritualisic, third materialistic, fourth individualistic, and last collectivistic. Although I think I might be wrong on the last two columns, anyone care to point out what's wrong with this viewpoint?

Edit: Just realized we're talking about the same thing except I replaced row with column, you're probably right about the last two. The rows would be from up to down, single ruler, oligarchic rulers, and rule by large population. I didn't want to use the term democracy for the final row because some of those symbols don't look like they represent democracy, particularly the first two from right to left.
 

Krajzen

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I didn't want to use the term democracy for the final row because some of those symbols don't look like they represent democracy, particularly the first two from right to left.

From left:

Military democracy (stratocracy)
Spiritual democracy
Indirect democracy
Moral democracy [confirmed]
Direct democracy
 
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Veracin

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From left:

Military democracy (stratocracy)
Spiritual democracy
Indirect democracy
Moral democracy [confirmed]
Direct democracy

I think you might have switched Indirect and Direct Democracy. Going by the symbols, the one you called Indirect has a straight arrow, whereas the one you called direct has a curved one, suggesting that the straight arrow is direct and the curved one is indirect.
 
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Veracin

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I wonder what the closest to Constitutional Monarchy might be like?

Probably second from the right, top row. That's some sort of pacifistic monarchy, the second closest thing I could think of would be Divine Mandate, which is the same row but second from the left, and then Despotic Empire, which is last on the right but still top row.
 
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Safehold

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Yeah. Personally I cannot imagine any situation where I'd take slavery bonus over such terrible difference in technological progress.

Finding more species to enslave instead of uplift, might give you those research points though. Like HOI4 now, most of it would be subject to change in the stats.
 
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ajarnlance

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Yeah. Personally I cannot imagine any situation where I'd take slavery bonus over such terrible difference in technological progress.

Wouldn't "collectivist" provide some advantages like more cohesion for society ie lower likelihood of rebellion OR higher birth rates? Seems like this needs balancing, otherwise I agree with the quote above... the 30% hit to research is way too high a price to pay for increased tolerance of slavery.