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Dracolithfiend

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This is stupid. No matter what country I play if I start to fabricate a claim Britain or France guarantee them. This makes playing minors aggressively impossible. I have mentioned before that you can manipulate the game easily by getting the allies to guarantee china/finland/Romania. People flipped out and said that I shouldn't do this because it is a cheap tactic but you know what? If I can't fabricate on anyone that becomes the only way for me to affect the world! GRRRRR you frustrate me paradox hoi team!
 

Opanashc

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When are you starting to justify wargoals? Guarantees cannot be done, until a certain level of world tension is reached. Thus, there is a window of opportunity that has to be taken or it is lost.
 

Dracolithfiend

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1936-37 as turkey against Bulgaria and Romania.
1937- as any Scandinavian power against any other.
1937 as Iran against any middle eastern country.
a half dozen more examples I cannot recall as I don't play that often for this exact reason.

Seriously this is just silly. Even the Monroe doctrine was changed to be totally ahistorical just to prevent minors from being playable without exploits/using cheese with the "Pax Americana" focus.
 

Vindaz

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Guarantees aren't dumb, you have until 25% WT to justify a war goal and you can use that time to take on 1 or possibly 2 nations. Pick the nation you want to kill first wisely, and make sure to manage WT well.
 

browd

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If the minor starts as fascist, like HUN, not a problem, since they can start fabricating from day 1 and WT usually won't hit 25% until JAP starts the CHI war in mid-1937.

The issue is most acute for those minors that begin as non-aligned (where the WT threshold to fabricate a claim is 50%), or democracies (100% WT threshold to fabricate). Those countries first need to flip to fascism or communism to early fabricate.

For the non-aligned who use the generic minor focus tree (i.e., ROM, YUG, LIT, TUR, BUL, GRE, etc.), the fascism flip can be done by late 1936 or early 1937 (go Political Power, take a fascist demagogue and then beeline to Nationalism Focus -- 3 focuses total), which should give them time for at least one fabrication (250 days) before the guarantees start to flow. For those that start with a meaningful amount of fascism support (like BUL at 31%), the fascism flip can, of course, happen more quickly, while others (like TUR, with 0% initial support) will take longer.

Although it is also non-aligned, POL has its own tree that requires 5 focuses to get to Fascism support (Go Right), which means they really have to rely on the fascist demagogue to get them there, but it takes way too long. In every game where I've flipped POL to fascist or communist, WT is above 25% by the time they convert, or as a result of their fabrication (which can add 8+% to WT alone), and the guarantees are flowing.

Finally, it's even worse for the democratic minors using the generic tree (e.g., CZE, SWE, etc.), since they can't even take Collectivist Ethos or Nationalism Focus until they have already flipped to fascist (which is stupid design, IMO -- the only minors that need fascism support after converting to fascism are those in the Americas, to combat the USA's democratic influence). Like POL, their fascism flip will often happen too late to allow fabrication before guarantees flow.
 
Last edited:

sethat

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Starting as neutral countries I have no issue as long as your first national focus is to political power. As Romania you can pretty much take Bulgaria and Yugoslavia right away before guarantees start being passed out..

As for guarantees being "dumb" no no they are not. Imagine as a "free" country seeing a path similar to ww1 happening again with Germany and what not begins happening in Europe of course people are going to guarantee that they do not have to be worried about being swallowed up into war and have there rights and ideologies changed.
 

Dan1109

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Uhg, another complaint of why its hard for a minor nation to take over the world.
 

Misaka_Complex

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No it is not "dumb"... China was in a strategic possession being boarder with British India and to the North USSR. The allies of course are going to guarantee them independence from imperial Japan.

Its dumb because this mean that the allies are gonna intervene in the 2nd Sino Japanese war from the start meaning that the Japan would also have to fight the commonwealth nations as early as 1937? That kinda screws up the game so that's why I think its dumb.
 

rust95

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Its dumb because this mean that the allies are gonna intervene in the 2nd Sino Japanese war from the start meaning that the Japan would also have to fight the commonwealth nations as early as 1937? That kinda screws up the game so that's why I think its dumb.

WT shouldnt be 25% by the time you get to mid 1937.
 

cat013

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Ethiopia - Rhineland - Spain - China... WT can easily hit ~30% by the end of 1936 if RND generator so decides.

(And yes, this guarantee spam is bogus. Very few selected countries enjoyed anything like that - but we kinda have factions for that effect.)
 

Dracolithfiend

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Ethiopia - Rhineland - Spain - China... WT can easily hit ~30% by the end of 1936 if RND generator so decides.

(And yes, this guarantee spam is bogus. Very few selected countries enjoyed anything like that - but we kinda have factions for that effect.)
Exactly what I am saying. I don't want to conquer the world. I just want to have a chance at conquering one neighbor before 1937.
 

Dracolithfiend

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"Justify war goal" is way more "dumb/silly/stupid" than guaranteeing in my opinion. But it is a balance issue I guess, most of all.

Touche
 

rust95

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Ethiopia - Rhineland - Spain - China... WT can easily hit ~30% by the end of 1936 if RND generator so decides.

(And yes, this guarantee spam is bogus. Very few selected countries enjoyed anything like that - but we kinda have factions for that effect.)

Ehiopia + Spain + Rhineland is not 30% WT. The post I was replying to was stating that the allies guarantee China. The allies should not have the ability to guarantee China by mid 37 in a normal historical game.

  • 2% Germany Demanded Sudetenland
  • 16.7% Treaty of Valencia ending Spanish Civil War
  • -1.4% Italian Peace Treaty w/ Ethiopia
  • 0.6% Militarization of Rhineland
 

Misaka_Complex

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WT shouldnt be 25% by the time you get to mid 1937.

Yes but OP is talking about doing it in MP without house rules, in which case can be a serious problem because in a random MP people justify wars very early on easily raising WT above 25% before Japan can have its war against China so I believe that this needs a fix, so that the Allies cant guarantee China. In SP its not a problem at all but the current topic is about abusing it in MP.
 

rust95

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Yes but OP is talking about doing it in MP without house rules, in which case can be a serious problem because in a random MP people justify wars very early on easily raising WT above 25% before Japan can have its war against China so I believe that this needs a fix, so that the Allies cant guarantee China. In SP its not a problem at all but the current topic is about abusing it in MP.

I didn't realise he was talking about random multiplayer. In which case my solution would be:

Give up and find a game on the forums with people who want to not exploit the games mechanics
 

rust95

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Oct 22, 2015
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*looks at the screenshot with 22% WT by 11-mar-36*
(and it wasn't even my fault, AI did it)

1) 22% isn't 25%, so the allies can't guarantee and that will come down assuming that this is a result of Jap and Span civil wars finishing (very) early meaning there won't be any major tension boosters until 38, giving you time to plan your wars for early-mid 37.

2) That is very early to have that high WT, would you mind sharing what the AI did to attain that WT? Is this with historical AI? Genuinely interested.

EDIT: intact it takes a minimum of 140 days (May 36) for Japan to declare war on china, so i'm stumped as to how you got there.