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Nuril

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The Viking age ended when the Norse started to convert and Viking raids became an anachronism with consolidation of royal power. Obviously, hugely stereotyped and incorrect in pedantic detail, but good enough given CK2's level of representation.

FYI all of the Scandinavian Kingdoms more-or-less came to be unified in their current shapes under pagan Kings, they just weren't formalized in mutual treaties until afterwards. It's one of those myths that Christian apologists like to popularize, claiming it was necessary in order to move on from just ruling your local tribe. Those treaties were still just as arbitrary as any of the agreed upon borders prior to that though, as all three of us were definitely Petty Kingdoms at this stage, as there wasn't really much of a cultural/linguistic difference at all yet during CK2. Dialects at most.

So, basically, you want a DLC where a key selling point is 400 years of boredom? The internal gameplay in CK2 is pretty deep...but it's not deep enough to make maintaining anachronistic religious systems a viable focus for a major DLC. Of course, if Paradox can figure out how to do it, I'm all ears (I certainly wouldn't mind a whole DLC devoted just to heresies, for example).

If you are incapable of enjoying the game without constant rape and pillage then that's your problem. I'd certainly try to expand, but I don't want it to be a breeze and I want to have to fight for every step forward Ásatrú or Romuva would make for their future. Potentially also with reforms helping their religious stability, but at the expense of support from hardliners and perhaps some mechanics shifting to a more mainstream form or allying the Hardliners against change etc. Also you wouldn't be all that isolated. You would be interacting less with Christendom outside of the North, but you'd also be closer to the Baltic. The Viking conquests didn't actually stop after they Christianized. They just shifted from West (England, France etc.) to East (Crusading against the Baltic and Finns). You'd get on decently with them. Several Kings in Scandinavia had marital alliances with Wends and so forth.

There are excellent reasons to believe that Julian the Apostate, despite grasping what was wrong with the official pagan cult, would've failed miserably even if he didn't die in Persia. For one, the level of penetration of Christianity in the upper classes of Roman society.

He might have. He might not have. That's the point. He also faced much steeper difficulties inside his realm. It also evidently was not particularly deeply entrenched in the upper-classes in Sweden. It'd be like you had an entrenched Western Emperor with almost uniformly State-sanctioned Roman-polytheist lands and roughly equal military power with an Eastern Emperor that is Christian, but ruling over an East that is still mainly pagan aside from his primary cities, lacking strong authority over several significant regions of his half due to local pagan leaders and then getting into a close-fought Civil War with said devout Western Emperor. He'd be in a far stronger position in his reunited realm than Julian ever was. Who had to sneak around and undermine Christianity by promoting religious freedom (and thus setting loose the Heresies on each other).

I'm not claiming that Julian's attempt was a likely success had he survived. But in Sweden it would've been. At least for the time being. I certainly agree that if their dynasty fell it could get back on that path, albeit delayed, of course. But if you start a game in that region obviously your goal will be to keep the new regime stable so that doesn't happen. We also tend to not surrender to the Seljuks if we start up as Byzantium.

And Roman religion wasn't just an a la carte collection of incompatible beliefs - there was, in a sense, a single paganism, with local flavor.

Well, that's just flat-out wrong. The Empire was not a uniform brand of paganism. At all. What-so-ever. The reason it didn't matter all that much prior the threat of Evangelical Monotheism was simply that with their overall toleration it wasn't much of an issue anywhere except with the Monotheists (IE mainly Jews earlier on).

No, what I mean is that in real life they would convert in a 100 years. Not sure about your numbers, though it hardly matters, in the end if the landowners at the top converted, so did everyone else.

It takes hundreds of years to thoroughly convert a region - in real life - with them in power. Obviously in this case they aren't in power, so the landowning elite wouldn't be Christian. I don't understand where you're even coming from with this. It does nothing but contradict you.
 
Last edited:

albso437

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Of course, I am just hoping they wont focus too much on the Norse pagans when there are other pagan groups which actually control a large portion of the map.

It's simply not possible to focus too much on Norse pagans.
 

cybrxkhan

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One easy mechanic that can easily cover pretty much all Pagan faiths (even after conversion to Christianity/Islam!) is some sort of traditionalism vs. "modernism" slider or laws or something of the like. Essentially, "pagan" rulers have to choose between true to their traditional culture or try to adopt the ways of their more "civilized" Christian/Muslim neighbors. If they want to adopt more "modern" ideas, then they'll get more economic bonuses and political power (as happened historically), and they can also convert to Christianity and Islam - but the cost is, say, angrier vassals or weaker troops and the like. (Note: I only use "modern" because I can't think of a better term, but essentially it's similar to Westernization in EU and Vicky)

I think this sort of thing can easily cover all the pagan faiths. Essentially, if there's a pagan DLC, I'm hoping that at the minimum there's some sort of mechanic like this that can cover all pagan faiths, if there isn't more specific stuff. Otherwise I think separate DLCs for hordes/steppe people and northern pagans, and maybe afterwards a West African and Zoroastrian minor DLC for those religions.
 

Jak9090

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I hope its pagan and expanded timeline backwards, hopefully they don't lump pagan into one group, and instead focus on the individual religions that we label as pagan.
 

Nuril

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One easy mechanic that can easily cover pretty much all Pagan faiths (even after conversion to Christianity/Islam!) is some sort of traditionalism vs. "modernism" slider or laws or something of the like. Essentially, "pagan" rulers have to choose between true to their traditional culture or try to adopt the ways of their more "civilized" Christian/Muslim neighbors. If they want to adopt more "modern" ideas, then they'll get more economic bonuses and political power (as happened historically), and they can also convert to Christianity and Islam - but the cost is, say, angrier vassals or weaker troops and the like. (Note: I only use "modern" because I can't think of a better term, but essentially it's similar to Westernization in EU and Vicky)

I think this sort of thing can easily cover all the pagan faiths. Essentially, if there's a pagan DLC, I'm hoping that at the minimum there's some sort of mechanic like this that can cover all pagan faiths, if there isn't more specific stuff. Otherwise I think separate DLCs for hordes/steppe people and northern pagans, and maybe afterwards a West African and Zoroastrian minor DLC for those religions.

Are you me?

They'd need to have real positives and negatives worth considering balanced on both sides of the spectrum, of course, since it wouldn't be real technology like Westernization, just a change in the Liege's cultural stance on religion and its hierarchy. Shouldn't be nonviable to go fully unyielding hardliner, even if you might end up as a tyrant nearby Christians would like to dispose of because of your policies. :)

Pagans, Republics, Theocracies... Did anyone think naval warfare?

Yeah. Not really all that relevant except in a few rare cases until the Europa Universalis era.
 
Last edited:

Voy

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Oh, can't we get over it and just hope it ends up well? No reason for anyone to argue... unless there is focus on the vikings in the next patch. ^^
 

cybrxkhan

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Are you me?

They'd need to have real positives and negatives worth considering balanced on both sides of the spectrum, of course, since it wouldn't be real technology like Westernization, just a change in the Liege's cultural stance on religion and its hierarchy. Shouldn't be nonviable to go fully unyielding hardliner, even if you might end up as a tyrant nearby Christians would like to dispose of because of your policies. :)

Yes, I am you.

Yeah, I was just using the Westernization/technology thing as an analogy.

Generally the idea is that keeping towards the tradiitonalism end will be bad in the long-run, but the AI and player can still lean towards that if they want. Essentially it's similar to how in the current Muslim mechanics, you can be nice to all your brothers and not imprison and kill them... it'd just be very difficult to keep everything stable - not impossible, but extmreley difficult. Similarly, with the traditional vs. Christian/Islam "modernization" dynamic, pagan rulers can try to keep native customs... it'd just be much more difficult doing so.
 

Voy

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Strange words for someone who threw around the word "Neonazi" to associate with people who want to play Ásatrú. :p

Ah. It's a common technique if you want to demonize an opinion, path etc similar to the argument "that sounds like something Hitler would have said". I'm not trying to be offensive just keep people from wishing such an absurd thing.

However I do believe the majority of the people who want that, and only that, is a bit too nationalistic or simply ignorant of what a "viking" really is or who the people behind the people was. I like them too, in history and history only, but it's not like I want the game to change for them e.g. extended timeline or make them invincible just because they're "vikings" and "epic". And yes I do believe people are that shallow.

I hope PI do the sensible choice here.
 

Aardvark Bellay

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Ah. It's a common technique if you want to demonize an opinion, path etc similar to the argument "that sounds like something Hitler would have said". I'm not trying to be offensive just keep people from wishing such an absurd thing.

However I do believe the majority of the people who want that, and only that, is a bit too nationalistic or simply ignorant of what a "viking" really is or who the people behind the people was. I like them too, in history and history only, but it's not like I want the game to change for them e.g. extended timeline or make them invincible just because they're "vikings" and "epic". And yes I do believe people are that shallow.

I hope PI do the sensible choice here.

Even though they just released the atztec DLC i doubt that Paradox will develop a rather fantasy like Viking part DLC, even if its part of a bigger pagan one, they won't and should'nt be OP or fantasy.
It would be quite nice though if nordic pagans get some special treat that has connections to history and differentiates them from christian feudal lords, politics and warfare.
Lets keep the faith. ;)


PS: I sense you got some special problems in Sweden with nazis trying to win support with the nordic culture stuff idea, but how should there be a threat that the ingame mechanics resemble this ?
I doubt they would. Nazis are stupid and have nothing to do with this. Remember , just because Goebbels used "Le preludes" by Franz Liszt, it doesnt make the composer a nazi.
 
Last edited:

Voy

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We'll see what PI does with this. It's not guarantied that it will be pagans even which is quite ironic considering what direction this thread has gone. ^^

PI never disappoint though so it will be alright.
 

Aardvark Bellay

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We'll see what PI does with this. It's not guarantied that it will be pagans even which is quite ironic considering what direction this thread has gone. ^^

PI never disappoint though so it will be alright.

Haha, yup. We might get Republics along with a trade system implemented in EU4. Nobody knows, but the beardy men and some cat-like women in Stockolm. :laugh:
 

Kalderus

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The three obvious candidates for DLC which fit 1) historical 2) making a new thing playable 3) oft requested in the forums 4) of as large scope as Sword of Islam are:

1) Pagans (or a subset thereof, where only Tengri would be large enough on its own)
2) Theocracies
3) Republics

Zororastrains are not of large enough scope, playable barons are not requested often enough in the forums. Playable Aztecs is not historical. :)

My personal guess is pagans.

Zoroastrians would likely be included as a small addition with the Pagans, since yes they aren't large enough to get their own dlc separately.
 

Arizal

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I'll pay for a DLC that gives nothing, except allows me to pledge money toward the devs never wasting time on this.

That has often been demanded. Perhaps they could made a DLC VIP : Your suggestions are heared and implemented if possible and you get a certain amount of other DLCs free.
 

albso437

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To those that think they might push the start year back 100 years. They would need more time than just one month to do that as they would have to add tons of characters and edit almost all the history files the game has. If they would do anything like that the development time would be a lot more than just month or two.

We don't know when they started development of this DLC.
We now that the Aztec DLC did not take any (or atleast not much) time from the team.
So minimum time would be 2-3 months.
But some work may have been in progress much longer.

If we get an earlier start date, much of the research may have been done long ago. Maybe already during the development of vanilla.