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Alblaka

Foresightful Flag-Choser
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Apr 12, 2013
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Preamble:
Ground Combat, Iteration 2.
Basically, everyone agrees that Warfare is a primary aspect of Stellaris (not THE sole primary aspect, but certainly one of them). And most people will agree that it isn't necessaryly Stellaris' strong suit.
Yet, whilst Space Warfare is occasionally lackluster in strategic depth, Ground Warfare is pretty much lackluster to it's very core. And that's the polite way of describing it.
There's many concepts out there dealing with this, even one of my own, albeit that one focussed on the interaction between Space and Ground (in form of explosives raining from the sky).
This time, we'll focus on the actual ground side.

Current State:

Currently, Ground Combat is minimalistic and was likely only implemented to the bare minimum of what was needed: Some way to make planets switch ownership/occupation (because, duh, that's how all Clausewitz games do it).
But the process in doing so is horribly lacking in depth:
Occupying a planet usually comes down to bombing it to 0 fortification, then sending a batch of armies in unarmed transport ships, which completely annilate the defenders mostly regardless of numbers (or, if you attack against not-0 fortification, get annilated).
A mild change-up is the introduction of higher-tier armies (Gene Warriors i.e.), who can take a planet (guarded by default-tier armies) without prior bombardment.
Technically, there's different subtypes and even a morale-combat focussed Psi army, but in practice none of that truly matters.

Concept:
To remedy this station, we need to build an entirely new concept from ground up, which must fullfill the following criteria:
  • The new concept must be able to simulate Ground Combat and change of Planet Ownership in some form.
  • It should have more depth, complexity and/or gameplay then the current system, to make conquering planets more then a repetitive waiting task.
  • Yet Ground Combat must remain simple enough not to require intense micro.
  • Preferably, it should as well allow different approaches to conquering a planet, with different risk/reward or flavour options.
  • And, given it's new mechanics, it should make Ground Combat more impactful and less of a 'confirm that my fleet has been controllin the system for 3 month' flag.
Based upon these criteria, I would like to take a step back and try to consider the topic whole; How would a inter-planetary ground invasion occur in 'reality'?
The best analogue here would, likely, be a naval invasion from one 'coast' to 'another coast'. Instead of naval fleets covering (naval) transport ships, we got our spaceships covering, well, space, to let the (space) transport ships carry troops.
After that, commences some sort of landing phase where the invading armies try to get a foothold on the coast/planet. As history proved (referencing the D-Day here), this is a particularily difficult part where a lot of armies already fail and/or take casualtys.
Next up, is the uphill battle of a technically encircled invader against the defending forces, with latter likely having ample supply, whereas the invaders are either on a time limit of the supplies they brought with them, or dependant on an outside supply route (i.e. a navy keeping convoys towards the foreign coast going).
As the invaders secure more and more territory, supply becomes progressively less of an issue (as they can then start draining said supply from the occupied territory) and the two armies gain more and more equal ground.
With the invasion progressing succesfully (which we assume for this mindgame, as anything else would lead to 'abort invasion'), the defender would then be forced back. Since we're dealing with an invasion against a finitely enclosed area (the planet) here, this means the defender cannot 'withdraw from the border', but will instead face encirclement and likely focus on defending key chokepoints (natural chokepoints, cities, defensive installations).
These would then slowly be sieged down, now the defender being cut off from supply, until the individual 'key locations' fall to either numbers, attrition or capitulation.
Once all key locations are occupied, the invader technically has gained control of the invaded territory, plusminus remaining scattered defense troops and partisans.

Now, the question is how to convert all this into a reasonable concept applyable to Stellaris?

Suggestion:
First off, we start by declaring that planetary combat will be changed to take longer, and be more meaninful. After all, pushing an enemy fleet out of a system means you 'control' a large empty region of space with a few orbital stations inside, but seizing a planet means seizing a large population and (industrial) infracstructure. Taking a planet SHOULD be a significant thing, both in terms of warscore and effort invested.

With that out of the way, we can go and create a new system of 'Invasion Phases'. And there is actually a representation of this already in Stellaris: As one can see in the army screen, the game already differentiates between 'in orbit', 'landing' and 'on the ground', with individual armies being able to move independently between these 'layers'. Of course that won't suffice for our system yet, but it's an indicator that the engine could very well be adapted to handle this.
Starting where the Invasion starts, or maybe even some time before that, we define that a hostile fleet of a specific size being in the system of a planet automatically blockade's the planet. I will simply reference EUIV naval blockades, where it requires X ships to blockade Y provinces on the same coast with the provinces having Z 'value'. Thus, to blockade planets in a system, you need to have some number of ships appropriate to the number, size and productivity of the planets. We could possibly make Corvettes more effective at this to give them a new purpose, too.

Why the change? Because we now designate that any fleet directly orbiting a planet has already commenced the first stage of an invasion: the 'Bombardment Phase'.
The Bombardment 'Phase' (not that this is not just a temporal, but as well a locational designation) represents all ships in orbit of a planet, and the constant exchange of fire in both directions. As currently, bombarding ships will damage to a planet, possibly destroying pops and buildings, but primarily firing at the planet's military defense structure.
However, instead of making an arbitrarily long 'timer bar' tick down, we instead let bombardment damage defending armies. However, at a VERY slow rate, with further diminishing returns (making it possible to wear the defenders down 'some', but never fully, unless you're fine bombarding for decades).
Of course, as I said, we will also implement a way for the planet to 'strike back': Orbital Cannons will be a new structure type which will deal damage to any hostile fleet in orbit of the planet. Some form of 'attrition' effectively.
Each day, a number of 'shots' is fired from the surface and damages weighted-randomly selected ships of the orbiting fleet (naturally preferring large, slow targets). Damage ignores shields (for simplicity of simulation) and armor, instead slowly whittling down health bars and causing ships to be destroyed over (long) time.
Orbital Cannos are NOT meant to be able to gun down fleets bombarding a planet, they are just supposed to punish plopping down fleets in a planet's orbit without actually going through with an invasion. And they will serve a further purpose I'll mention in the following phases.

So, why is the bombardment part of the invasion phases? That is because the phases are, as explained, not just 'time phases' but as well 'locations'. And as it turns out, the 'Bombardment Phase' is effectively the orbit, which is where transport ships carrying armies start their invasion from, too. (This as well implies that parking Transport Ships in a planet's orbit may end up with these ships being shot down by orbital fire.)
Once starting the invasion, all transport ships will now deploy their associated armies; more precisely, into the 'Landing Phase'.
The Landing Phase represents the travel from orbit to ground. Every army launched from a transport (by whatever means avaible) has to spend time in this transitional phase, during which it will take damage from Orbital Cannons, will be slowed by planetary shields and even receive fire from defending armies of the next phase (if they are not otherwise 'busy', read further to see why), albeit at a reduced rate.
However, the amount of armies that can be 'landing' at the same time is limited, depending on a base value, increased by planet size, increased by transportfleet-to-planetsize-ratio and reduced by planetary shields, possibly forcing the invaders to land in several 'waves'.

Once the invading armies have passed the travel time, they move on to the 'Beachhead Phase'. This is where we first introduce the 'Column' system: Instead of each phase being 'planet-wide' (as it is currently), from the Beachhead Phase onwards, the phases are seperated into several columns, representing geographically different parts of the planet.
The number of columns may differ with the planet's size and it's defensive fortifications (i.e. a well-fortified planet, more to that later, may force the invaders to split up and fight at several locations (for most of this concept, assume the system explained for 3-4 columns).
Once landing, invading armies are assigned to a specific Beachhead Column (priorized by factors we will discuss laters) and will then be 'stuck' at the spot until able to move onwards or retreating. On the other hand, defending armies will per default be 'stationed' in these 'areas'. Furthermore, defenders will automatically reallocate themselves in specific intervalls (which could either be a fixed monthly intervall, or something related to the planet's level of military organization).
As this is where the fighting starts, we will now have the two sides fighting 'Ground Combat' as we know it currently from Stellaris, albeit at a local level (aka, armies from a specific column may only engage armies from the same column).
To represent the difficulties of the 'landing operation', there is a limited 'engagement width', aka the number of armies which can actually 'deal damage'. This width can be modified by advantages gained by tech, strategy, defenses, etc. However, it will generally be lower for the attacker (giving the defenders a direct edge if they have the proper numbers to 'staff the defenses'), and furthermore any damage dealt to the actively fighting invader armies will 'bleed through' to 'armies in the back' (at a percentage), implying that a large stack of attacking troops will suffer more damage (logic: the more people clustered at one spot, the more effectively will hostile fire hit).
However, to compensate this, the bombarding fleet will grant a combat bonus to the attacking troops (imagine 'artillery support'), which is diminished by the level of planetary fortifications (and especially so by a planetary shield). Note that if, for any reason, there is a fleet in orbit that is allied to the defender, the bonus will be provided to the defender instead.
Now, what is the goal of this phase? For the defenders, it is to hold their superior position and decimate the attackers. For the attackers, it is to 'push back' the defenders and gain ground.
This is achieved via 'local victories'. If a defending unit runs out of morale, it is forced to fall back one phase whilst recovering a lump % of it's morale instantly (20ish maybe). Furthermore, it cannot 'move back up' to the Beachhead Phase until it regained a specific amount of morale (i.e. 80%), but regenerates morale at a slow rate (thus making it unlikely for the unit to ever recover fast enough, unless the defender has enough units to actually 'rotate' units consistently). Next to morale, the unit can slowly recover strength, too.
If all defending armies in one Column are forced to fall back, a local victory is achieved and the invading armies can progress one phase up (likely running into the previously withdrawn defenders). The same can happen if the defending armies were killed instead, albeit that is arguably less likely.
If invading armies run out of morale, they will cycle to the 'back row', if such one is present, or be forced to continue fighting at the already known 'no morale, -75% damage' malus. If in the backrow, invading armies can slowly regerate morale, as defending armies, but no army strength.
If all invading armies in a Beachhead Column are wiped the defending armies in this column will be able to regenerate slowly, and all armies that have been forced to fall back will move back up regardless of morale. And, very likely, the defending armies will automatically reallocate to columns still under attack. Additionally, they are not considered 'busy' anymore and will fire at whatever invading armies may still trying to land (aka, are in the Landing Phase).

At any point, the invader can retreat individual armies (either manually, or by some automated mechanic we'll not further discuss), or call for a whole retreat, at which point the relevant invading army(ies) will move back to the 'landing phase' and again spend time moving back to orbit, during which they are again fired upon by orbital cannons. Needless to say, invading armies cannot withdraw if there is a hostile (aka, allied to defender) fleet in orbit.

The next phase is the 'Terrain Phase' which represents the step where the invasion forces push from their beachheads and take control over regions, continents, etc, whilst fighting the defending forces.
For flavour, we could apply different combat modifiers here, depending upon the planet being fought on (i.e. desert causing increased morale damage on both sides, jungles increasing army damage, etc).
Per definition, this phase's columns will have larger engagement width's (and no innate advantage to the defender), possibly allowing the invading army to play out it's superior numbers. Furthermore whatever armies the invaders engage here will likely be still at reduced morale from their previous combat, making any fighting in this phase exceptionally short-lived.
Armies of either side which are brought to zero morale have to withdraw into the previous phase and if either side runs out of armies, the enemy armies can advance to the next (or the previous, if the defenders manage to strike back the attacking armies) phase.
However, the 'can' is emphasized here, because whilst the defenders will always want to return to the advantageous (to them) Beachhead Phase, the attackers can instead decide to remain in the Terrain Phase and instead attack 'sidewards' into an adjacent Terrain Column. Per default, for each invader army moving into a Terrain Column, the defenders in the Beachhead Column have to send one army 'back', unless there are already (recovering) armies resting in the Terrain Column.
The defenders in the Beachhead Phase will not directly suffer from this 'two-pronged attack' through explicit mali, but whenever the attacker (considering engagement width) outnumbers the defenders in the Terrain Column, defenders will have to withdraw from the Beachhead, possibly leading to another breakthrough and more attackers pouring through.
Thus, in general, if one Column in the Terrain Phase is lost to the defender, the Beachheads will quickly follow suit. For this reason, the defender can as well (manually or automatically) call for a retreat at any time, 'giving up' phases to the invaders, in the most likely case to try skipping a disadvantageous fight in the Terrain Phase to quickly move on to the following Phase.

The last explicit phase is the 'Siege Phase'.
This represents the defenders last attempt at holing up in well-fortified locations like bunkers, a capital complex, military bases or cities. And, again taking from reality, these locations obviously give the defender a significant advantage in itself.
However, since this stage implies practically all relevant theory but these key locations are taken, this as well implies defenders are encircled.
Therefore, the engagement width now favous the attacker, allowing (+-modifiers) 3 times as many invading armies to engage as the defending ones. On the other hand however, defenders gain a -75% army and morale damage taken bonus. This means, that the invader actually has to bring the afromentioned numerical superiority to have a proper chance at overpowering the defenders.
Albeit it's necessary to mention that if the defenders only consist of armies that have just fallen back from the terrain phase, likely the defender will only have to deal with very few combat-effective units. Because like the invaders during the Beachhead Phase, since defending armies can no longer fall back, they will end up running out of morale and receiving the -75% damage penality (unless they can rotate with another army on the same column's backrow.
Additionally, defenders at this stage cannot, anymore, reallocate to different columns (encirclement, still). However, if the invader pushed past defenders of other columns (aka, only one column was pushed to the Siege Phase, whilst the other's are still busy in the Beachhead Phase), defending armies from the Beachhead column's backrows can reallocate to the Terrain Phase of the sieged column, effectively 'cutting off' invading armies.
Cut off invading troops receive a small morale damage taken and army damage dealt penality (10% ish) and, if forced to fall back from the siege, will end up being engaged again in the Terrain Phase (and thus likely forced to fall back further into the Beachhead Phase). To move back to the Siege Phase, they will then have to fight through the Terrain Phase again.
If all defending armies in a Siege Column are destroyed OR all defending armies are at 0 morale, the invaders seize control of the key location (representing either annilation or capitulation). Once seized, the defensive advantages of the key location are halved for the entire remainder of the invasion (representing the damages to the once-stormed fortress), but, as long as they hold it, provides it's defensive advantages to the invaders.
Defending armies can (now) move in from other key locations (or from the columns Terrain Phase), if not engaged in combat of their own and try to re-take the key location (albeit this will likely be a rarity, since winning a Siege Phase is an effort that will usually only work if the invading army is winning on all fronts anyways).
For each key location taken, damage dealt by defending troops is reduced by 15% and the morale damage they take increased by 15%, representing the 'welp, they breached our lines' mentality that will now certainly take hold. Furthermore, the first key location taken will as well disable Planetary Shields (assuming that it takes a globe-spanning network to maintain the shield, and taking out a single element is enough to create an opening sufficient for the invaders).
If all key locations are taken, the invasion ends with the invaders victory (all defending armies capitulate) and the planet changes ownership.


Now, if you're going to yell at me about how this concept is definitely too much micro, consider the following: The entire invasion does not require any player interaction at all. And the only way the player can even interact with it (so far) is to move around the fleet or call for a retreat.
But who or what does your troops tell how to behave and where to attack? After all, there were a lot of 'the x army can decide to' in that concept, weren't there?
For this, we introduce a new key feature labelled 'Invasion Plan'. The Invasion plan(ning) screen is brought up after the player clicks on the 'Launch Invasion' (aka 'Land Troops') button and is a small interface with a number of settings to define how the invading army is supposed to act. The first time this interface is called up, it's filled with default settings fitting to the empire's ethics, but he can alter the settings as he sees fit and then store them as default via a small save icon in a corner, causing all future invasions to use this plan per default (thus, in most cases, the player will define a specific invasion plan fitting his fluff and playstyle once, then execute it with a single button click each invasion).
The first row of choices is the 'Landing Vehicle'.
  • Initially, empire's can only chose 'Planetary Transports', which are effectively trans-orbital transport vessels stowed aboard the actual spacefaring transport ships (think amphibious landing craft here). It's the default choice for all empires and the only one avaible at the start of the game.
  • As tech progresses, new options are unlocked, i.e. 'Drop Pods', which increase the speed of the landing by 200%, and grant a +25% morale damage bonus for 7 days to each freshly landed troop, but as well costs x minerals per deployed army (consumed upon starting the invasion) and reduces the speed of retreating armies by 75% (since drop pods are only designed for one direction, really).
  • 'Armored Landing Craft' is another option unlocked later, which reduces landing (and retreat) speed by 25%, but reduces damage from orbital fire during the landing phase by 75% (making them ideal for the 'slow, unstoppable' approach agianst heavily fortified planets).
  • Lastly a late-tier rare tech is 'Teleportation', which costs x energy per army upon start of the invasion, but lets invading armies skip the landing phase. However, if the planet has a defense shield, this transportation bonus only takes effect if there are already invading armies at the Beachhead Column new armies want to deploy to (representing the need to set up some sort of counter to shield interference). During the initial landing, troops will default to Planetary Transports. Furthermore, the use of this very powerful landing method can be prevented if there is a planetary shield AND the defender has researched a rare followup 'Teleporter Disruption' tech.
The next choice is the row 'Assault Focus', which allows the player to specify how the armies are supposed to be distributed.
  • 'Full-Line Assault' is the default setting and will simply try to deploy armies equally to all columns, effectively fighting the defender on all fronts at once.
  • 'Centered Assault' will reserve half of the invading armies exclusively for an attack at a single column (preferably the center, albeit in case of even column count, a random of the two middle one), and spread out the remaining armies to the other columns. This as well grants invading armies in the 'center of attack' +10% army damage, whilst reducing the army damage in all other columns by -5%. Once the key location of the center column is taken, the focus defaults to Full-Line Assault.
  • 'Pincer Attack' will seperate the invading armies into three equal parts, and will aim to deploy one to the outmost columns each, and the third part equally across all remaining columns (for 5 columns, this would be a 33-11-11-11-33 split). Invading armies at the pincer columns will gain +10% morale damage, whilst the other columns cause -5% morale damage. If a key location is taken, the 'pincer' shifts 1 column closer to the center, effectively closing in on the center from both sides.
The next row of settings controls the frequency of deployment.
  • 'Reckless Mass Assault' simply sends all (or, as many as possible, depending on planet landing width) armies to the planet as quick as possible. Naturally, this will cause invading armies to 'pile up' in the Beachead Phase, which means the invaders take more bleed-through damage total, but will always have their full engagement width, regardless of losses. The engagement width on both sides of the Beachhead Phase is increased by 1. Additionally, sending as many landing units at once as possible will minimize the time orbital cannons can fire at landing craft.
  • 'Continous Stream' will send only 'one width worth' of armies initially, minimizing bleed-through damage. Once an army is brough to 33% morale, another army will be deployed to land at the former army's location to provide 'reinforcement', taking over it's position and pushing the damaged army to the back-row. If the new army then drops to 33% morale, it will again switch with the other army in the back-row. If one army is destroyed or both are below the morale threshhold, a third army is sent from the orbit, etc until either the Beachhead is taken (at which point all armies allocated to the column are deployed) or all armies have landed. Needless to say, this way of repeatedly sending smaller (even single) landing armies will increase the total damage dealt by enemy orbital cannons.
  • 'Cycling Troops' is the third setting, which will work similar to Continous Stream at first, but instead of leaving the injured armies in the back row to regain a few % of morale before being engaged again, any army replaced by a fresh one will instead retreat back to orbit (where it can regain morale faster and recover army health). However, injured armies regenerating (prior to recovering fully) will only be deployed again if an army on the ground is actually destroyed, which will leave a column temporarily understaffed. And, needless to say, the constant back and forth will draw a lot of orbital defense fire and against a heavily fortified location, this may end up killing the armies trying to cycle out. As compensation, it does grant the invading force a +10% morale boost ('Just this one assault, and then we can go back for some RnR').
The last row of settings defines the behavior of the armies past the Beachhead Phase.
  • 'Charge Ahead' makes any column that pushes past the beachhead beeline for their respective key location, regardless of the positioning of hostile troops or the situation at other columns. This forwardness increases army damage dealth by 10% and army damage taken by 5% and will bring down the planetary shield, if present, in the most direct way.
  • 'Wide Siege' is a variation of former, in which columns that pass the beachhead will move into the Terrain Phase of other columns, 'switching assignments' with any undeployed or back-row armies of other columns (i.e. 2 armies push through a beachhead and move sidewards to column X, now 2 armies from column X (either assigned, but still in orbit, or in the backrow of their fighting beachehad) will land/rotate to the original column of the former 2 armies), effectively causing as many armies as possible to 'pour' into the Terrain Phase and then move forward to siege as many key locations in parallel as somehow possible. This strategy grants +10% army damage to all invading units in the Siege Phase.
  • 'Step by Step' will ensure that all Beachheads are taken, before moving in for the Siege. Any invading armies that secure their Terrain Column, will not push further, but instead spread out and draw defenders from the Beachhead into the Terrain Phase (as described previously). Only if the Beachhead Phase in both adjacent columns is won, will a column proceed to siege a key location. This grants +5% morale damage to all invading units.
Needless to say, invasion plans cannot be changed once the invasion commences, and the only way for the player to interact with an ongoing invasion is to call for a full retreat.

Of course, the defensive side gets to set a Invasion Plan as well. Invasion Plans can be set for planets via the Mobilization tab (more to that later), and stored as the default for all planets similar to how Invasion Plans can be set up for the attacker. Obviously, a defensive Invasion Plan needs to be set before the Invasion of a specific planet starts.
The first row contains two choices, defining the allocation of defending armies. However, since the defenders don't decide 'where' the attack happens, they always spread out equally to all columns. The 'allocation' we are talking about is the on-the-fly reallocation of troops in response to the invasion's deployment.
  • 'Dug-in Static Defenders' grants -10% army damage taken to all defending armies, but effectively locks defending armies in place, not reacting to how the enemy troops are distributed. However, casualtys in one column will still be replaced by another column if free armies are avaible.
  • 'Reactionary Doctrine' will allocate half the defending armies statically to the columns, and keep the other half 'flexible', moving them around in between columns to match whatever ratio the invader is throwing at the planet (but grants no defensive boost).
The second set of choices decides the allocation of troops between front and back.
  • 'Beachhead Line' grants an additional -10% army damage taken to defending armies in the Beachhead Phase and allocates all troops in a column to the foremost Phase that is being engaged, going by 'if we give them any ground, we lose'. As a downside, once a Beachhead is lost, it's very well possible that defenders will be pushed back to their key locations and probably even overwhelmed there before the other columns can respond.
  • 'Last Reserve' will instead set up a security buffer of armies stationed in the key locations. 30% of the defending armies, but at least 1 army each, will stay in the Siege Phase, regardless of how the Beachhead fares. Alongside ensuring there is always at least someone to prevent Key Locations from being rushed down, this grants -5% army damage taken (stacking with the default 75) in the Siege Phase.
  • 'Defense in Depth' will set up armies in a 50-30-20 split, ensuring all phases and columns contain armies (as possible). This split will (deopending on the static/dynamic) setting adjust to losses in the Beachhead, but armies allocated to the Terrain Phase will never move to the Beachhead to replace armies falling back. Whilst this makes Beachhead's less well-defended, it guarantuees any invaders breaking through will encounter ready troops in the Terrain Phase, which allows other Terrain Phases to rotate over as needed and eventually even force invaders back into the Beachhead Phase.
The last setting defines the defenders own aggressiveness, both on a tactical and individual level.
  • 'Hold your Position' will reduce army damage and morale damage dealt on both sides of the invasion by 15%, drawing out the entire invasion as long possible. As well, defenders will never try to recapture lost phases, but just stick to defending their assigned beachhead or key locations.
  • 'Flexible warfare' is the default setting, in which a defending army at a key location will move out to re-engage the Terrain Phase once it has fully recovered and has a surplus of units and can fill the Terrain combat width without ending up outnumbered. Additionally, if these conditions are fullfilled, defending armies will as well try to cycle over to other terrain phases to cut off invading armies in the Siege Phase.
  • 'Make them Bleed' is the reverse of the first setting and makes defending armies behave as aggressively as the invaders themselves. It increases army damage dealt by 20% on the invader and by 30% on the defender side, making the whole invasion a bloody onslaught. Additionally, defending units will always try to re-engage any lost zones if they have enough units in a key location, even abandoning the key location in their reckless counter-offensive.
Thus, on the strategic level the player resides on, this entire concept boils down to defining an Invasion/Defense Plan, marking it as default and eventually altering it based upon new technologies or specific conditions (i.e. bumrushing a significantly weak planet, or approaching a stronghold more carefully), then hitting the button and watch the spectacle. Because, in the end, what is more exhilarting then watching your ground troops properly stomp over a roughly simulated 2D battlefield, encircling and exterminating filthy xenos.


Now, whilst this was the core of this concept, it leaves two new questions to answer: 'What changes about armies?' and 'What the heck is a Mobilization Tab?'.

Let's take on the latter first.
We now introduce a new mechanic labelled 'Mobilization', alongside a side-effect we will label 'Productivity'.
Latter is a modifier designating how productive a planet is at any given moment, ranging from 0 to 100 (%). Energy, Mineral, Research and Food gain are modified 1:1 by Productivity (thus, meaning no minerals or energy are generated if productivity drops to zero).
This new 'Productivity' rating is technically just a 'generalization' of the various planet-wide modifiers we have. Weird hypno drug flowers? Reduce productivity. Recently conquered? Reduce Productivity. Production Edict? Increase Productivity. Unrest? Reduce Productivity.
Most importantly however, is the new relation 'Mobilization? Decreases Productivity.'
Mobilization represents the degree of planetary ressources invested into military infrastructure, military production, orbital (since ships tend to be 99% military) production and fortifications. Oh, finally that word again.
Mobilization ranges from 0 to 100, and has a base 'Mobilisation Productivity Effect' (furthermore known as 'MPE') of 75. This means (per default), 75% of the Mobilization rating of a planet is subtracted from it's Productivity.
Now, what does Mobilization do (past gimping a planet's production) and what does effect it?
The main purpose of Mobilization is to simulate 'manpower' (because currently all armies are clearly just mineral-based robot drones with a minor energy upkeekp), local defensiveness and the effect of war on economy. Which, currently, is exclusively simulated by War Happiness. The base values and limits of Mobilization (within the hard caps of 0 and 100) are determined by your 'Mobilization Law':
  • Purely Civilian Industry (only avaible to Pacifist)
    Maximum Mobilization is capped to 25. MPE increased to 200 (aka, at a 'maximum' Mobilization of 25, you lose 50 Productivity). +5 Productivity on all planets whilst at peace.
  • Civilian Industry
    Maximum Mobilization is capped to 50. MPE increased to at 100.
  • State Military (not avaible to Fanatic Pacifist)
    Minimum Mobilization is 10, maximum is 100. Allows manual Mobilization to 50.
  • Mobilized War Industry (never avaible to Pacifist, requires either Authoritarian, Militarist or being at war (in latter case, reverts to State Military once back at peace))
    Minimum Mobilization is 25, maximum is 100, MPE reduced to 60. Allows manual Mobilization to 100.
  • Permanent Military-Industrial Complex (only avaible to FanAuthoritarian/Militarist)
    Minimum Mobilization is 40, maximum is 100. MPE is reduced to 50. Allows manual Mobilization to 100.
As you can see, this effectively lets you define limits for your Mobilization and alter how much it effects your Productivity, with the edge example of a Pacifist setting, which can go to zero Mobilization and even gets a Productivity bonus, but will not able to reach high degrees of Mobilization when necessary, and even have Production suffer under those. On the other side of the spectrum, a 'permanent war' kind of industry, where all planets are always forced to maintain Mobilization, but can go up to 100 and will still only suffer reduced Productivity penalities.
Now, since you can see that having a potentially high Mobilization cap appears to be an advantage just as much as having no Mobilization is, let me explain the two-edged sword it is:
Mobilization directly affects ship production speed, with a full Mobilization increasing ship production speed by 300% (in reverse, ship build times shoud be doubled. That way, it will be 0 Mobilization = half of current production speed, 100 Mobilization = twice the current production speed). The same speed bonus is applied to the construction of armies.
Additionally, production costs for military ships and armies are reduced by up to 25% (representing how the ressources spent for the Mobilization 'flow back' into the actual production of ships).
Furthermore, Mobilization increases the base damage dealt by orbital cannons by up to 200% (orbital cannons have a default low-ish base damage and thus only become truly effective on mobilized planets) and grants defenders on the planet an army damage and morale damage taken reduction of up to 40% (multiplicatively to all other modifiers).
And, lastly, Mobilization determines how many 'Garrison Militia' a planet will spawn when being invaded (scaled by population, of course).

This brings us to the next question: How is Mobilization generated past the law settings?
There is three ways of 'generating Mobilization'. The first is by the law settings, which may or may not define a minimum Mobilization planets will always maintain, regardless of the other two factors.
The second factor is 'manual Mobilization', which is a stat mentioned, but not explained, previously. Manual Mobilization is a setting at any planet (plus a sector setting plus a 'mobilize all' button at some interface or tab) that will force Mobilization to a set of avaible values (25/50/75/100) at a rate of +-1 Mobilization per month. The purpose of this is to fortify up border planets you expect to be invaded, or to designate specific 'military shipyard' planets to rapidly produce ships and armies. Albeit the option to perform manual Mobilization may be limited by your laws.

The last factor to this is a form of 'Army Upkeep'.
It always bothered me that armies in Stellaris are created from minerals alone and you can have indefinite and abusrd amounts of them, as long as you can feed them with energy.
Instead, we now define that armies recruited from a planet are actually linked to that planet, representing the more or less steady stream of recruits and reinforcements. As such, any army built on a planet permanently 'locks in' a lump sum of that planet's Mobilization. Thus, if you can go up to a maximum of 50 Mobilization and each army built (example values!) takes up 5 Mobilization, you will only be able to build 10 and doing so will max out Mobilization at 50.
However, in reverse this means having a minimum Militarization lets you have 'free armies', as building them will not affect Mobilization until the 'cost' of the built armies would reach the minimum value. With afromentioned example, if you had a minimum Mobilization of 25, the first 5 built armies would not affect the Mobilization value (since it's stuck at 25 anyways).
The actual 'Mobilization Impact' of a built army would mostly depend on it's type (i.e. Elite Army > Assault Army > Defensive Army), probably scaled by population (thus, 40 mobilization on a 25er world means more armies then 40 on a 10er world).
In combination with the laws, this means a militaristic empire will opt for the military-industrial settings, maintaining an increased minimum of mobilization, in the intent to 'use' that minimum to produce armies (which it needs anyways, because militarist, duh), and therefore profits from the reduced MPE (as, in reverse, a less military-industrial empire could build the same amount of armies on demand, but suffer from a higher MPE). On the other hand pacifistic-law'd empires will want to avoid having any armies, as every single will impact Productivity. And, more importantly, you will be forced to recruit armies from multiple planets, instead of just building them in xxx stacks on a single world.

Of course, we can now define different army types and other factors which influence this Mobilization mechanic and interact with our new combat system.
  • With global food, we could have armies consume food instead of energy for upkeep.
  • We could have armies recruited from War Thralls (the new slace type) generate only half the usual Mobilization.
  • A rare militarist tech could further reduce the MPE.
  • Robotic Armies could be changed to have only a minimal impact on Mobilization, in exchange for a 'high' energy upkeep.
  • 'Elite' armies (i.e. exoskeletons or mechanized) could be more powerful, but as well consume inefficiently more mobilization (i.e. 1.5x the stats, 2x the mobilization).
  • We could design specialized army (attachments) which excel at specific phases of ground warfare.
  • The destruction of a unit could impact planetary happyness, whilst slowly letting the 'locked' mobilization tick back down, meaning that a loss of xx armies from one planet will prevent that planet from instantly rebuilding the armies until mobilization has 'recovered'
  • In reverse, loss of a planet (to war or, more likely, rebellions) could lead to the armies associated with the planet to be forced to disband (or join the rebellion).
  • And. So. On. Unlimited possibilities.
Conclusion:
To summarize, with this concept we would get an overhaul of ground combat, which lets the player define a general strategy and then watch the visually much more appealing onslaught, whilst as well providing an entirely new take on the difference between Militarists and Pacifists, by introducing Mobilization and it's affect on (civilian) economy. And it allows much more depth in term of army type variation, instead of just the current fluff (and the difference between default armies and gene warriors).

And, in all honesty, if you decide that 'Meh, that's way too much effort to implement, just to watch a visual lightshow', then we still have the whole mobilization and army upkeep concept, which would still, by itself, by a (in my oppinion) great addition to the game.


So, what do you think of this? And what kind of unit types would you suggest?


If you enjoyed this concept, you might as well enjoy the previous and next entry of my series:
< Governments, Society, Economy, Military <
> 5by5 - Planet Habitability reworked >
 
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Some good ideas in there, but especially the first part is full of flaws.
1: Orbital cannons are an inefficient way to attack an orbiting fleet, projectiles and missiles have to fight gravity and atmospheric drag in order to reach orbit. Missiles can reach maybe a speed of Mach 6 or 7 while in the atmosphere and can't perform evasive maneuvers, thus becoming easy targets for point defence. Shooting projectiles at a target 180 km above the surface requires a muzzle velocity of 3600 m/s and would have practically no kinetic energy left to cause any damage, but at that point it would start to fall back and hit the planetary surface with terminal velocity or even faster if the atmosphere doesn't slow it down enough. Avoiding the risk of a projectile falling back and to be able to shoot targets in low orbit (which isn't actually required for orbital bombardment, but let's just assume that's where the fleet will be) requires more than 11000 m/s or roughly 40000 km/h not accounting for atmospheric drag. Beam weapons have reduced efficiency because particles in the air diffuse the beam.
Planetary defence installations should only shoot at landing troops.
2. Keep the way shields work consistent, the planetary shield should protect the planet from bombardment and invasion, but only until it's considerable amount of hit points are used up. Giving a friendly fleet the chance to drive the orbiting fleet away. The same applies to shielded armies and structures, once the shield is overwhelmed orbital bombardment should wipe them out very quickly.
3. Because of point 2. planetary invasions with fleet support should be more like rebel suppression than large scale land war. Once planetary shields and defensive armies are destroyed from orbit, there should be little resistance. The only alternative would be fortified underground bunkers, immune to bombardment. You could retreat the defending troops there, probably only a fraction thought, that could serve as the core of a resistance movement, using guerilla tactics and supporting a counter invasion. Making it easier to take a planet back.
4. Considering global food is a thing starving a planet into submission should be a viable tactic. A planet should have a limited stockpile of food, if the planet consumes more than it produces, those stockpiles will be depleted. The effects should depend on ethics, pacifists might surrender without a fight, authoritarians might let the population starve to feed the army, creating unrest, etc.
5. Likewise certain bombardment stances should allow you to prioritise what you attack. Destroying a planets food production capacity is a quite effective tactic, though some empires may not look kindly on that. Destroying industry could create supply shortages for the defenders, as they run out of equipment and ammunition, reducing combat effectiveness over time. Destroying civilian targets, could cause significant moral damage, at the cost of opinion penalties for each pop killed, possibly forcing certain governments to surrender. Default stance would be military targets.
6. Lack of the most obvious planetary defence system, the orbital defence grid. Already kind of exists but could and should be expanded to make planets harder to take.

I don't have any issues with the mobilisation mechanic you proposed, that seems solid and well reasoned, and in principle I don't oppose the invasion plans and and ground warfare policies, but they would be kind of superfluous if a fleet is in orbit that can just bombard all opposition. I don't think ground warfare should be all that important, planets by themselves do have little strategic value, beyond being a war goal. If a planet is blockaded, I would be perfectly fine just leaving a few vessels there and move on to destroy fleets or spaceports, without any production capacity I can basically blockade every planet until they give up. At that point why should I sacrifice my manpower to fight a ground war.

Edit: Funny how someone can respectfully disagree 1 minute after I post, obviously not having read the reply :D
 
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Alblaka

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1: Orbital cannons are an inefficient way to attack an orbiting fleet, projectiles and missiles have to fight gravity and atmospheric drag

Just as FTL, mindworld-based shroud-gods and the worm-in-waiting.
Planets need a way to retaliate against fleets bombarding. The best way to implement that is with 'Planet-To-Orbit-Weaponry'. We skip scientific technobabble for things that don't exist and just say 'Orbital Cannon'. /realism

2. Keep the way shields work consistent, the planetary shield should protect the planet from bombardment and invasion, but only until it's considerable amount of hit points are used up.

The very point of this suggestion is to remove the 'Destroy planet hp bar before venturing forth' waiting game. Any kind of progress or hp bar past the level of individual armies screams 'bad design' to me.
As well, Planetary Shields ARE consistent, and consistently effective at protecting (in the context of this concept) ground troops by
  • massively reducing damage by bombardment
  • slowing down approaching landers
  • posing an obstacle to 'Teleportation'
I'm confident in saying that's already well enough to make them useful.

3. Because of point 2. planetary invasions with fleet support should be more like rebel suppression than large scale land war. Once planetary shields and defensive armies are destroyed from orbit, there should be little resistance.

Again, the point of this suggestion is to make conquering planets less of a 'confirm my fleet is successfully sitting in this system' and more of 'we achieved a glorious hard-fought victory that earned us a resonable large amount of warscore' thing. Making planets easy to conquer is doing the exact opposite.

4. Considering global food is a thing starving a planet into submission should be a viable tactic.

If one were to remove the 'bombarded planets dont produce anything and therefore always starve' mechanic, and instead let planets continue to try growing food locally (whilst shutting off their other productions due to blockade), this would actually be a useful addition. Either in terms of causing a slow, creeping attrition (aka hunger) to the defending armies or, more fittingly, by giving them a combat malus.
After all, just because the planet 'is starving' doesn't mean there is literally no food on the entire planet. It's a damn planet after all. (And by that definition all pops on the planets would regularily die out. It's safer to assume that 'Starving' implies the need for harash rationing, keeping people alive, but making them unhappy (and less effective in combat, thus a malus)).

5. Likewise certain bombardment stances should allow you to prioritise what you attack.

I did exactly that with my Bombardment Rework Concept a month back. As mentioned, this concept tries to focus on the ground warfare side, but here's a link for reference:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...nd-warfare-planetary-assault-reworked.977945/
 

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But it is not the best way to achieve that. The best way would be an orbital defence grid.
1. It does not require building a new system from the ground up, only expanding what already exists.
2. It serves the same purpose, making it harder to conquer a planet.
3. It is more realistic. To me that does matter, if you have the choice between two equivalent ways to achieve the same goal, that is the tie breaker.

Wars are won mainly by destroying your opponents fleets and production capacity. If all fleets and spaceports are destroyed, you have won the war even if you lack the war score to enforce demands. The way the game works, planetary invasions are nothing more than an afterthought. You do it because you need to, in order to get enough war score to enforce your demands. I don't think making it harder to invade a planet would add anything to gameplay or strategy, it only makes it harder to actually end the war after it is already decided.

If you want to actually make planets more important in a war, you need to be able to protect your spaceport, because a planet without a spaceport has little value in a war that happens in space. That is why ground invasions are largely irrelevant in the course of a war. You might as well leave the ground warfare system as it is or make it even easier to take a planet once the orbital defences are gone.

A planet with a sufficiently high population may be incapable of producing enough food to feed itself. The point of a planet simply surrendering if the population is starving, is to make empire ethics relevant to how you fight a war. An authoritarian militarist regime will rather let its population starve and feed the army instead. An egalitarian pacifist democracy will surrender the planet once the orbital defences are destroyed to spare their population the bombardment, etc. The size of the remaining fleet should also play a role, if a planet is under siege but there is a chance to hold out until help arrives should make a difference in whether a planet surrenders or not. A planet that is self sustaining would be less inclined to surrender than one that doesn't produce any food at all. Etc.
 

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The best way would be an orbital defence grid.
A subjective oppinion.
But arguably not the oppinion of the devs, or they wouldn't have included ground combat at all.

Sure, we could just go, remove ground combat entirely (i.e. replacing it with the 'armies are just supressing unrest' token feature) and instead add some more defensive station variety to Stellaris. Then wonky-repetitive Ground Combat would cede being an issue.

Would it be an improvement over the current system?
A subjective oppinion.

Wars are won mainly by destroying your opponents fleets and production capacity. If all fleets and spaceports are destroyed, you have won the war even if you lack the war score to enforce demands. The way the game works, planetary invasions are nothing more than an afterthought. You do it because you need to, in order to get enough war score to enforce your demands. I don't think making it harder to invade a planet would add anything to gameplay or strategy, it only makes it harder to actually end the war after it is already decided.

That's the point.
Right now, planetary invasions are just plain and boring waiting games to gather warscore in a grindy fashion.

But from a realism point of view, it should have MUCH more of an impact on warscore to take a planet filled with billions of your citizen and vast infrastructure, then blowing a couple spaceports out of space.

Of course, just making planetary combat tougher wouldn'T help that, but as I said, planets should be harder to take AND worth more warscore.
The level of 'taking the enemy capital is worth 50% warscore' (+-scaling to number of enemy empires). MAking it very, very decisive and important to take key planets, in the knowledge they are the hardest to reach space-wise, and heavily fortified (or at least garrisoned) ground-side.

If you want to actually make planets more important in a war, you need to be able to protect your spaceport, because a planet without a spaceport has little value in a war that happens in space. That is why ground invasions are largely irrelevant in the course of a war. You might as well leave the ground warfare system as it is or make it even easier to take a planet once the orbital defences are gone.

This, I agree, is an issue inherent with Stellaris. And currently I don't see a simply solution except for moving ship production planet-side (which IS a lot more realistic and reasonable, and I can't even figure out why the game design choice was made to instead have highly vulnerable and destructible objects in planetary orbit instead).
The best I can offer here is the argument that an empire without space presence could still refuse to give up (aka, not lose too much warscore) simply because the enemy isn't even able to actually occupy the planets, thus why should they be ceded to said enemy? (Again an inherent issue with Steallris, since there is literally no 'gain' wargoal past taking planets (in one form or another) and some minor fluff).

But, these issues could be changed as well. They just aren't the focus for this concept.
A planet with a sufficiently high population may be incapable of producing enough food to feed itself. The point of a planet simply surrendering if the population is starving, is to make empire ethics relevant to how you fight a war. An authoritarian militarist regime will rather let its population starve and feed the army instead. An egalitarian pacifist democracy will surrender the planet once the orbital defences are destroyed to spare their population the bombardment, etc.

I would argue this strongly depends on the wargoal. Even democratic pacifists will not surrender to Exterminatus.
 

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A subjective oppinion.
But arguably not the oppinion of the devs, or they wouldn't have included ground combat at all.

Sure, we could just go, remove ground combat entirely (i.e. replacing it with the 'armies are just supressing unrest' token feature) and instead add some more defensive station variety to Stellaris. Then wonky-repetitive Ground Combat would cede being an issue.

Would it be an improvement over the current system?
A subjective oppinion.
There may be a point to ground combat if for some reason you are unable to bombard a planet into submission or unwilling to commit your fleet to that planet. You might want to take a relatively undefended colony with a small population. This is where I see ground combat happening, simply because you can put your fleet to better use elsewhere. But for that you don't need to rework the current system, because absent any intervention the result is a foregone conclusion.


That's the point.
Right now, planetary invasions are just plain and boring waiting games to gather warscore in a grindy fashion.

But from a realism point of view, it should have MUCH more of an impact on warscore to take a planet filled with billions of your citizen and vast infrastructure, then blowing a couple spaceports out of space.

Of course, just making planetary combat tougher wouldn'T help that, but as I said, planets should be harder to take AND worth more warscore.
The level of 'taking the enemy capital is worth 50% warscore' (+-scaling to number of enemy empires). MAking it very, very decisive and important to take key planets, in the knowledge they are the hardest to reach space-wise, and heavily fortified (or at least garrisoned) ground-side.
Why should occupying planets give more warscore than blockading it? A planet without the ability to build ships or contribute in any fashion to your empire is useless. If all your planets are blockaded and you don't have any ships left, you have lost the war. You are simply unable to function as an empire. Losing your homeworld to an invasion on the other hand may be a blow but if your fleet is still intact and you have other planets where you can build more ships the war is far from over.

This, I agree, is an issue inherent with Stellaris. And currently I don't see a simply solution except for moving ship production planet-side (which IS a lot more realistic and reasonable, and I can't even figure out why the game design choice was made to instead have highly vulnerable and destructible objects in planetary orbit instead).
The best I can offer here is the argument that an empire without space presence could still refuse to give up (aka, not lose too much warscore) simply because the enemy isn't even able to actually occupy the planets, thus why should they be ceded to said enemy? (Again an inherent issue with Steallris, since there is literally no 'gain' wargoal past taking planets (in one form or another) and some minor fluff).

But, these issues could be changed as well. They just aren't the focus for this concept.
There are usually multiple reasons to build spaceships in space instead of on a planet. The most probable is because just about all other space 4X games I can think of do it that way. In Master of Orion 2 you could only build the smallest ships on a planet, for everything else you needed a space station. Also possible is that they wanted players to be able to destroy the ability to rebuild fleets, because otherwise wars could potentially become endless affairs especially late game.
But to make it complete here are examples from science fiction novels:
Logistics, most raw materials come from asteroids or are shipped from elsewhere. It makes sense to build it in space just to not have to transport the raw materials down to the planet.
Physics, spaceships are built for space and big ones don't even have the ability to land on a planet, much less take off again.
Economic, it's cheaper and easier to build in space because you don't need as much equipment to move heavy stuff around.
Construction, if a spaceship is not supposed to land on a planet, you don't have to take planetary gravity into account when designing the spaceship. This saves cost.

All those reasons can be ignored if one desires to do so, you can always explain it away with some fancy technology or by not making it an issue. There are plenty of examples in fiction where those things are just ignored. But in my opinion that it is better to be as close to realistic as reasonably possible. If you want interstellar empires you need FTL, if you want ships to not just die off from a few hits, you need either shields or massive ships with lots of armor that can take a beating. Want your crews to actually be able to move through the ship without it being a huge obstacle, you need artifical gravity...
But if you solve all your problems with this method, it gets boring.

I would argue this strongly depends on the wargoal. Even democratic pacifists will not surrender to Exterminatus.
With this I agree, if the choice is between death and death, you fight to the last man. For some fanatic egalitarian/fanatic individualists that may also be the case for slavery. But then again, I could just kill the population from orbit, so if I want to wipe a planet clean of life I can easily do that.


Stellaris is a game where the primary focus in a war is space combat, not ground combat. Even from a realism stand point that makes sense, because if you don't have a fleet you sure can't take my planets. I can just wait until I have the resources to field an army that can take your planet, while you are stuck. Essentially your proposed system would move the waiting game to a different point in time, instead of waiting for my troops to conquer your planet, I wait until I can field an army that can take your planet. It doesn't solve the problem at all. Making planets without defences easy to take, but planets with an orbital defence grid challenging targets would solve that problem, because I can't simply destroy your spaceport and move on to the next one. Moving the production to the surface would change it a bit too, but in that case I'll leave a couple of ships behind, you can only build one ship at a time after all. Of course that could be changed as well...but where does it end?
 

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Stellaris is a game where the primary focus in a war is space combat, not ground combat. Even from a realism stand point that makes sense, because if you don't have a fleet you sure can't take my planets. I can just wait until I have the resources to field an army that can take your planet, while you are stuck. Essentially your proposed system would move the waiting game to a different point in time, instead of waiting for my troops to conquer your planet, I wait until I can field an army that can take your planet. It doesn't solve the problem at all. Making planets without defences easy to take, but planets with an orbital defence grid challenging targets would solve that problem, because I can't simply destroy your spaceport and move on to the next one. Moving the production to the surface would change it a bit too, but in that case I'll leave a couple of ships behind, you can only build one ship at a time after all. Of course that could be changed as well...but where does it end?

In the end, this is the core valid argument in your argumentation that is obviously an issue to my suggestion.
Ideally, ground combat should never have been a thing, since all the other mechanics of Stellaris (as you listed up, focus on space combat and the way any meaningful production can be stopped by shooting down space-borne paper shipyards) don't synergize with it. If we had no armies, ground combat or assorted, but instead conquered planets by depleting their fortification bar and move on, the gameplay would not necessarily become more realistic, but much more fluid and, without objection from my side, fun.

But it's there, a barebones, mostly unfun system of taking planets by ground forces.
Given the developement cycle all recent (read: last 5 years+) Paradox games follow, Stellaris was likely developed as a concept with a specific vision. Aka, we want that and that and that and that in the game. Next up, they decided where to place the focus, which parts of the game were substantially necessary, which were required to fit their concept, but not critical, and which could be left out for later expansions.
In order, examples for these are colonization/planets, ground combat, planetary Destruction (as revealed by Wiz in last week's devstream). The first is in the game and fully functional, the second was implemented barebones because it is either a requirement for another mechanic or intended to be fleshed out, and the third is something that is not in the game at all and will come some time later.

What does this mean for this whole discussion about Ground Combat?
It's not going to be removed, in all likelyhood, but will at some point be reworked or fleshed out in some form. (In favour of this would be the 1.5 change adding another mechanic (unrest suppression) to armies. There were plenty other possible ways to do that, and if they were planning on removing groundcombat (and therefore armies alongside it), they wouldn't add more features to it, making it more tedious to remove it at a later point.)

And that's why I keep saying your solution is not appropriate. It's obviously the 'fastest way of fixing the problem by removing it', but it's not what I expect to be dev team's intention. It doesn't matter 'where does it end?' because, to me, it's already are a foregone conclusion that ground combat will stay in the game and receive an overhaul. That leaves only the question:
What exactly will be overhauled in what manner?

And that's the question my concept is trying to propose an answer to, disregarding how many changes it may pull along (like making planets the focus of warscore, moving ship production planetside (or just making spaceports undestructible) etc).
 

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I don't mind ground combat being in the game, but reworking it should come after making it meaningful. And right now that's not the case. Making it give a lot of war score may be a way to force the issue, but then it becomes just as much a chore as it is now. Instead find a logical reason to invade a planet first.

My proposal would be the following:
Either require a planet to be occupied in order to be conquered, which would be a quick and easy solution. Or a more interesting solution would be to allow an empire to take control of a planet and its sphere of influence without occupation (in a peace deal the defeated empire formally acknowledges the victor's possession of the planet), thus ending the war. In that case, the planet does count as yours for purposes of population and planet count. But is effectively not under your control. You would get all of the negative effects an additional planet gives you, right now that's counting against the core system cap and making research more expensive, but none of the benefits except for the sphere of influence. You don't get anything the planet produces, you can't resettle pops to or from the planet, you can't build structures (maybe not even a spaceport) and this only ends once you invade the planet successfully. It could also either become independent or revert to the original owner, once a period of time has passed without you taking control of the planet.

That would make wars between empires decided by fleet action, independent of ground combat, while still providing an incentive to use the mechanic and give it meaning.

I still think there should be more options than invasion to force a planet to submit. Those should be depending on both the defenders and aggressors government type and ethics, as well as the war goals and how self sufficient the planet is.

Hive minds will never submit, no matter what, and no planet will surrender to them. Fanatical purifiers will never submit to anyone not of their own species, likewise only a planet populated by their own species will ever submit to them. That's one end of the spectrum, taking the planet by force is pretty much the only way. If two xenophile egalitarian democratic empires are at war, it would be a reasonable assumption, that changing ownership could be handled peacefully, little would change for the population after all.

The list of contributing factors is not complete, there are a lot of other things you could take into account to balance how big a role ground combat should play, the fewer planets will surrender without a fight, the more important ground combat becomes. But you could directly influence how likely it is by your own actions.
 

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I don't mind ground combat being in the game, but reworking it should come after making it meaningful.
And you cannot make it meaningful, without reworking ground combat, because noone wants a meaningful/critical gameplay aspect to be as flat and tedious as ground combat currently is.
You cannot do either properly without the other, but that doesn't mean we can't make individual concepts for the specific sides of the issue. Quite the contrary, I could write a single 100-page long essay that reworks Stellaris whole, but who would ever read it? Most people won't even bother reading these lengths of concepts, already.

My proposal would be the following:
Either require a planet to be occupied in order to be conquered, which would be a quick and easy solution. Or a more interesting solution would be to allow an empire to take control of a planet and its sphere of influence without occupation (in a peace deal the defeated empire formally acknowledges the victor's possession of the planet), thus ending the war. In that case, the planet does count as yours for purposes of population and planet count. But is effectively not under your control. You would get all of the negative effects an additional planet gives you, right now that's counting against the core system cap and making research more expensive, but none of the benefits except for the sphere of influence. You don't get anything the planet produces, you can't resettle pops to or from the planet, you can't build structures (maybe not even a spaceport) and this only ends once you invade the planet successfully. It could also either become independent or revert to the original owner, once a period of time has passed without you taking control of the planet.
Which is very similar to what I suggested in an earlier thread: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...integration-annexation-and-a-cold-war.996612/

But as I mentioned, I can't cover every linked aspect of a concept in a single thread and still expect people (which includes devs) to read it.

I still think there should be more options than invasion to force a planet to submit.

Not a bad concept in and on itself. But the alternative options must be balanced vs the overall flow of war and vs each other in both ressource and time effort.
 

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I disagree with the first part, changing both aspects simultaneously would be ideal, but if you have to decide for either one or the other, the somewhat boring mechanic could be kept around a little while longer in favour of one that would give you a good reason to use ground combat. But that's both, just my opinion and splitting hairs.

Forcing planets to surrender needs to be balanced, no doubt about that. How to do that is up for debate. I imagine you could negotiate with the planetary government directly instead of the empire, with limited diplomatic options. If a planet isn't a war goal, they can only chose to either fight or voluntary occupation, which way they choose would depend on if there are more reasons for than against. If a planet is a war goal, you may also decide to take the planet as a vassal instead of controlling it directly, to sweeten the deal. Granting more autonomy in exchange for an easier victory.

I think we're both having similar thoughts on what we would like to see in the game, but have different opinions on how that could be achieved. Me opting more towards realism and conservative approach, rather improve what's already there than make fundamental changes to the game, while you are more willing to sacrifice realism and replacing mechanics with better ones. Neither approach is inherently better than the other, though in my opinion the chance is higher that smaller changes find their way into the game, than completely new ones.
 

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Forcing planets to surrender needs to be balanced, no doubt about that. How to do that is up for debate. I imagine you could negotiate with the planetary government directly instead of the empire, with limited diplomatic options. If a planet isn't a war goal, they can only chose to either fight or voluntary occupation, which way they choose would depend on if there are more reasons for than against. If a planet is a war goal, you may also decide to take the planet as a vassal instead of controlling it directly, to sweeten the deal. Granting more autonomy in exchange for an easier victory.

I would be REALLY careful about a mechanic such as that. On paper, it sounds like a great (and realistic) concept for the player to have a more fluid warfare experience.
But the second the player sees his planets suddenly disappearing into newly founded vassal mid-war, you will hear a ton of complaints (and let's not even start considering the MP cheese).
There's a reason it always takes a full war+negotiation phase in all Paradox Games to actually make any form of ressource (i.e. planet) change ownership.
I think we're both having similar thoughts on what we would like to see in the game, but have different opinions on how that could be achieved. Me opting more towards realism and conservative approach, rather improve what's already there than make fundamental changes to the game, while you are more willing to sacrifice realism and replacing mechanics with better ones. Neither approach is inherently better than the other, though in my opinion the chance is higher that smaller changes find their way into the game, than completely new ones.

Sounds like a reasonable consensus.
Albeit, in the end it's all up to Paradox as to what 'scale' of which changes they implement.
I think it really comes down to their internal roadmap. If they want to make a big DLC about warfare and can include a complete rework, they might do that. If they instead opt for (i.e.) a trade-focus expansion next, it's more likely they will implement smaller changes to keep the system functional without too much effort.

Oh, and let me just quote this over from the latest Dev Diary:
"Wiz: [...]but we plan to look into the war system in the future in general."
Seems we have been heard, one way or another.
 

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I would be REALLY careful about a mechanic such as that. On paper, it sounds like a great (and realistic) concept for the player to have a more fluid warfare experience.
But the second the player sees his planets suddenly disappearing into newly founded vassal mid-war, you will hear a ton of complaints (and let's not even start considering the MP cheese).
There's a reason it always takes a full war+negotiation phase in all Paradox Games to actually make any form of ressource (i.e. planet) change ownership.
You misunderstood me there, I didn't mean that the effect is immediate. The immediate effect would be the planet becomes occupied, nothing more. But in the peace deal instead of getting the planet you would get it only as a vassal, everything else would remain the same, including the war score you need for it.
 

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1. Not sure how I feel about combat phases you've suggested, but I agree that current fortification system is insufficient. Ideally it should be closer to planet's passive bonus and planet bombardment should be more of an artillery support as you said, except "Armageddon" which is "burn it from orbit" approach.
2. While I agree that direct combat between armies should be limited, army rotation seems like an overcomplication to me. Besides I think that army's "mana bar" morale should be more of a dynamic modifier calculated by current combat situation. I.e. being outnumbered by psionic armies brings it close to zero, target practice on slaves raining from the sky keeps it at maximum.
3. I don't see why I can't start to deploy all my armies simultaneously since they all have their own transports, however waves could represent how much of an army got to the surface. Initially only percentage of an army gets there, having same percentage of health and damage, getting more of it with each wave. If all ground parts get destroyed before next wave comes - well, C'est la vie, you are not ready for an invasion.
4. Army limit should be a thing indeed, right now limitless armies are just a workaround for absence of balance in this department. But other systems just seem too mundane when I try to imagine them. Pop-based recrutiment and maintainance seems like too much of micro, planet-based seems too abstract because it ignores different species and their rights/traits, species-based is too abstract again, because it ignores different factions.
 

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3. I don't see why I can't start to deploy all my armies simultaneously since they all have their own transports, however waves could represent how much of an army got to the surface. Initially only percentage of an army gets there, having same percentage of health and damage, getting more of it with each wave. If all ground parts get destroyed before next wave comes - well, C'est la vie, you are not ready for an invasion.

You can (and should, and have to, more or less) 'deploy' all your transports to the Invasion.
However, the two factors for width are
  • How many transports can be covered by military ships to have a chance at landing + how the organization handles deploying that many troops at once in an orderly fashion
    Aka, how many transports can physically enter Landing Phase at the same given time (as well hardcaps 'I throw 500 troops at your planet and they can all land at once to avoid your fleet')
  • How many troops can actually charge at the enemy in what is assumed to be a defensible position (any overhead CAN land, but will be sitting ducks in terms of firepower)
I think this is much easier to simulate in the concept as whole then landing 'portions of armies'.

4. Army limit should be a thing indeed, right now limitless armies are just a workaround for absence of balance in this department. But other systems just seem too mundane when I try to imagine them. Pop-based recrutiment and maintainance seems like too much of micro, planet-based seems too abstract because it ignores different species and their rights/traits, species-based is too abstract again, because it ignores different factions.

Ye, ideally we would have armies linked to specific pops, thus carrying species and ethos, thsu forcing you to select assigned pops like colony ships, and then define that based upon militarism/mobilization, each pop can support x armies of type y.
But instead, I went for a slightly less micro approach and will stick with the current 'pick army type and species' and simply link it to 'species X of planet Y', disregarding individual pops and their composition.
It's in any case a more well-defined system then 'spam armies of race X, which later are 100% independent anyways'.
 

Milten

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You can (and should, and have to, more or less) 'deploy' all your transports to the Invasion.
However, the two factors for width are
  • How many transports can be covered by military ships to have a chance at landing + how the organization handles deploying that many troops at once in an orderly fashion
    Aka, how many transports can physically enter Landing Phase at the same given time (as well hardcaps 'I throw 500 troops at your planet and they can all land at once to avoid your fleet')
  • How many troops can actually charge at the enemy in what is assumed to be a defensible position (any overhead CAN land, but will be sitting ducks in terms of firepower)
I think this is much easier to simulate in the concept as whole then landing 'portions of armies'.
"Physically land" shouldn't be a problem, since it's a planet we are talking about. The things is that mitigates "zerg rush" strategy, aka swarm enemy with lots of low quality troops, which I think should be a viable strategy if you have enough slave/war thralls pops.

Ye, ideally we would have armies linked to specific pops, thus carrying species and ethos, thsu forcing you to select assigned pops like colony ships, and then define that based upon militarism/mobilization, each pop can support x armies of type y.
But instead, I went for a slightly less micro approach and will stick with the current 'pick army type and species' and simply link it to 'species X of planet Y', disregarding individual pops and their composition.
It's in any case a more well-defined system then 'spam armies of race X, which later are 100% independent anyways'.
Building all your armies on one planet is not an issues in itself, since technically you can take recruits from colonies and train them on a capital. It's convenient gameplay-wise. V2 system with armies tied to regions was realistic, but sometimes tedius.
 

Alblaka

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"Physically land" shouldn't be a problem, since it's a planet we are talking about. The things is that mitigates "zerg rush" strategy, aka swarm enemy with lots of low quality troops, which I think should be a viable strategy if you have enough slave/war thralls pops.

That is a very good argument my currently implementation completely neglects.
Zergrushing is literally contraproductive, as throwing more units, due to combat widths, does not actually result in more damage dealth (but in more damage taken, and technically 'more troops avaible to replace losses with).
Maybe I have to rework the width to increase (inefficiently!) with the number of attacking armies. Aka, if you really go and throw hundreds of armies at them, your width doubles, or something.

Building all your armies on one planet is not an issues in itself, since technically you can take recruits from colonies and train them on a capital. It's convenient gameplay-wise. V2 system with armies tied to regions was realistic, but sometimes tedius.

True point, but then again this would mean the Capital has to provide the logistic / equipment support. Or well, something has, somewhere.
And if we go and say 'Well, the troops are trained at the capital, but equipments, recruits, trainees, EVERYTHING comes from planet X', then might as well argue that we just don't implement (remote training) and demand players to go and train troops at Planet X instead.
 

DukeLeto42

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The main addition I see to this is giving tile usage more impact on planetary invasions. Reassembled ship shelters should mean the Siege Phase is barely a consideration because no defensive construction has occurred, with the defense quality improving up to the Empire-Capital Complex. Additionally, other military structures should provide perks during invasions -- virtual combat arenas, military academies, clone vats, and slave processing facilities should all boost the planet's defense.
 

Alblaka

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The main addition I see to this is giving tile usage more impact on planetary invasions. Reassembled ship shelters should mean the Siege Phase is barely a consideration because no defensive construction has occurred, with the defense quality improving up to the Empire-Capital Complex. Additionally, other military structures should provide perks during invasions -- virtual combat arenas, military academies, clone vats, and slave processing facilities should all boost the planet's defense.

Good point. I considered adding 'bunker buildings', but scrapped it again because in my previous Ground Rework Concept people appeared to dislike the idea of having to invest building slots into something as irrelevant as ground combat.
But adding defensive boosts to capital or military buildings could be very well done.
Albeit for some buildings, it would even more sense to provide offensive boosts by granting a 'mobilization impact modifier'. I.e. the Military Academy would make it 'cheaper' in terms of mobilization used, to build troops, as the planet is more effectively geared towards maintaining armies.
 

DukeLeto42

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Albeit for some buildings, it would even more sense to provide offensive boosts by granting a 'mobilization impact modifier'. I.e. the Military Academy would make it 'cheaper' in terms of mobilization used, to build troops, as the planet is more effectively geared towards maintaining armies.
I think it should still give a modest boost to army morale and/or damage - the local military expertise and training facilities would make local forces better led and prepared for battle than a world without. It would motivate even further putting them on border worlds to protect them against attack.