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Remoria

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It may very well not change the perception they have, but that isn't really my point. A lot of people are tossing around orbital bomardment as if it would basically just automatically win and battle and that the populace would assuredly surrender, and what I'm saying is that that is one-dimensional thinking. Although now that you bring it up a ground invasion would still have a higher potential to prove to the defenders or populace that your presence is more or less benign. Simple things like having occupation forces for captured cities assist in relief or repair efforts, or making a show of steering clear of clearly non-military sections of the settlement. An orbital bombardment would have none of those chances, and would basically do nothing but (at best) cause the citizens to fear you and (at worst) cement in their minds that you are ruthless and barbaric invaders.


Plus for the grander topic at hand consider it on the wider scale. Not only would you possibly have to count dissenting voices at home in peaceful elements of society or other conquered races, but think about the reaction from the empire that actually owns that planet. A world taken by ground forces would likely just be considered a planet occupied by the enemy (thinking in terms of how humans might view it), but a planet that either gets glassed or has its cities ruined by bombardment may be viewed in a much more negative light. Especially in the case of glassing which would likely be viewed in much the same way many games treat other types of WMD.



Somewhere earlier in the thread someone used the example of literally "flinging" asteroids from any nearby belts at the planet in question, and it stuck since it's a convenient reference point for the arguments.

Perhaps, I just cant conceive of anything except a war against my own people where anyone would be willing to sacrifice millions of their own people to potentially reduce the collateral damage to the people that refused to peaceably surrender when their only real means of defense were lost. (Lets face it a planetary invasion on mass scale is going to cause almost as much damage as deciding to glass 1/3 of the planets cities anyway)

What kind of relations are you going to have with a race your at war with that wont surrender in the face of absolute destruction in the first place? To force an end to the war, your going to have to utterly destroy them as a free nation if they wont contemplate surrender even in the previous circumstances aren't you?
 
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stumason

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To be specific you've had the war in the pacific IE that against japan pointed out to you numerous times, and you choose to utterly ignore every comparable naval example.

So I suppose the US Marines fighting from island to island did sod all then?The War in the Pacific was solely a Naval action now? But hang on, I thought WW2 was won solely with Airpower? Isn't that what you said? But now ships are involved... Soon, you're going to have to admit that ground troops were needed as well...

Ok screw it moving on from this guy I cant handle this level of dumb.

I am afraid the only "level of dumb" on display here is your worthless arguments which you change to suit you and say I said things which I didn't.

I enjoy debate but intelligent debate is the key here.

Yeah, it is - I was hoping you would provide some - Sadly, I was mistaken.
 
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REDDQ

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Actually no - I never said that and pointed that out in my previous post. I actually said no war has been won (even by a tech superior enemy) using airpower alone. Where you're getting this idea about a "show of force" from is a mystery. You're barking up the wrong tree with that argument.

But it was, Japan was still prepared to fight with whateer they had. Focus now please, AFTER bombs were dropped, THEN they surrendered. Got it? Show of force was a figure of speech.

I see the subtleties of my argument confound you - my point was, had Japan called the US bluff and gone for a third or fourth attack, they'd have realised the US had no more bombs! And then what? Anyway, we're arguing the toss over an example used to prove a point over something I didn't actually say.

I know what you said. Maybe I used too many words so you failed to understand so simpler "USA could just keep producing bombs". I hope it is clear now. It is not like Japan could rebuild its naval power with what they had left on islands.


Terraforming teams? Do we even know if substantial terraforming is even available (especially early-mid game)? A massive assumption on your part simply to try and win an argument. What if you cannot terraform? What if you didn't get the tech?

6pb0ZO0.jpg


Going after that point in my argument was weak. Terraformer it is like the basic thing even now being theorized about.

In reality, I doubt any colony would have a massive population or vast urban sprawls anyway, so it would actually not be the bloodbath you seem to think it would be. Take Star Trek - most colonies are very small and when invaded and occupied it was done with relatively small forces. It would take centuries for a colony to get up to the size of Earth, at which point an invasion does become a problem

Imho colony wouldn't even dream about standing up against any fleet.
 

stumason

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Wrong. DS9 had no such thing. They were few cases where starfleet officers had a shoot out with the enemies but it was in no way or shape a ground warfare. The closest bet would be special forces operations. I mean no vehicles, no artillery, nothing to speak of. And they were usually fighting over crucial installations which couldn't be blown to pieces.

Actually it did - It is painfully obvious you didn't watch it all or have simply forgotten. There were numerous episodes with the DS9 crew involved with ground combat on the surface alongside Federation forces battling wither Kilngon or Dominion invaders. For example, check out the "Episode Nor the Battle to the Strong" - You can apologise at your leisure.
 

Reverend Belial

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Perhaps, I just cant conceive of anything except a war against my own people where anyone would be willing to sacrifice millions of their own people to potentially reduce the collateral damage to the people that refused to peaceably surrender when their only real means of defense were lost. (Lets face it a planetary invasion on mass scale is going to cause almost as much damage as deciding to glass 1/3 of the planets cities anyway)

What kind of relations are you going to have with a race your at war with that wont surrender in the face of absolute destruction in the first place? To force an end to the war, your going to have to utterly destroy them as a free nation if they wont contemplate surrender even in the previous circumstances aren't you?
People keep using Japan as an example, and I think they'd serve well here too. Japanese soldiers were notorious for not surrendering without an official governmental order to do so (perhaps this is more sterotype than fact, but there are still many recorded instances of soldiers "continuing the fight" well into the seventies due to cut communications), so take that example into space. Perhaps the honor or loyalty of the defenders prohibits them to surrender to the foe no matter the odds, unless their glorious leader commands them to. I suppose one could argue that we DID destroy them as a nation to end the war, but I guess that's a matter of semantics.



But directed at the actual "planetary defenses vs fleets" conversation I once again invoke Star Trek. Even in the original series there is a PLETHORA or examples of non-traditional defenses utilized against fleets, energy dampeners seeming to be the most common. The options exist.
 

Reverend Belial

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Actually it did - It is painfully obvious you didn't watch it all or have simply forgotten. There were numerous episodes with the DS9 crew involved with ground combat on the surface alongside Federation forces battling wither Kilngon or Dominion invaders. For example, check out the "Episode Nor the Battle to the Strong" - You can apologise at your leisure.
Hell just play Star Trek Online for an hour or two. Tons of infantry combat, both on and off of ships. And that's obviously grounded in their lore.
 

Yenzen

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To be specific you've had the war in the pacific IE that against japan pointed out to you numerous times, and you choose to utterly ignore every comparable naval example.

Ok screw it moving on from this guy I cant handle this level of dumb.

I enjoy debate but intelligent debate is the key here.

And yenzen you make a fair point maybe they will flesh it out a bit more than I'm expecting fun trumps realism anyday in a game ^_^

Calling everyone who disagree with you stupid and then storming out, instead of neutrally concluding that a discussion is going nowhere and calling it a day, isn't going to help your argument.
 
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Remoria

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Calling everyone who disagree with you stupid and then storming out, instead of neutrally concluding that a discussion is going nowhere and calling it a day, isn't going to help your argument.

No yenz I didn't storm out, nor did I call everyone disagreeing with me stupid. But do continue to make accusations without basis. I called the one person that cant understand flight time or ya know anything else anyone has said after its been repeatedly explained to him stupid and ignored him and carried on the debate with everyone able to string a sentence together yourself included :p
 
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lemonsquid

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Its fine, we can settle it in game. I will have my awesome space fleet, and you can have your awesome ground defenses. I will determine that your rock is one of literally thousands of others, and destroy you without a second thought
 
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stumason

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But it was, Japan was still prepared to fight with whateer they had. Focus now please, AFTER bombs were dropped, THEN they surrendered. Got it? Show of force was a figure of speech.

A figure of speech? It means something entirely different to what I said and the only reason you don't acknowledge that is because you know it to be true.


I know what you said. Maybe I used too many words so you failed to understand so simpler "USA could just keep producing bombs". I hope it is clear now. It is not like Japan could rebuild its naval power with what they had left on islands.

At a very slow rate - perhaps one every couple of months. Anyway, my point stands - no war has been won with Airpower alone, that was mty orginal statement and it hasn't changed, nor have you proven it wrong. Citing an example of WMD use towards the end of a catastrophic war costing 50+ Million lives is not the same thing.



6pb0ZO0.jpg


Going after that point in my argument was weak. Terraformer it is like the basic thing even now being theorized about.

It looks to me like that option in the screeny isn't even selectable, perhaps being greyed out.... I would assume you'd need the required techs?

Imho colony wouldn't even dream about standing up against any fleet.

If a fleet of a dozen spaceships (I've not seen many fleets bigger in the Screenies) turned up and there was substantial defences, why not?
 
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Rubidium

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I see the subtleties of my argument confound you - my point was, had Japan called the US bluff and gone for a third or fourth attack, they'd have realised the US had no more bombs! And then what? Anyway, we're arguing the toss over an example used to prove a point over something I didn't actually say.
Actually, they'd have found the US had established an assembly line and was cranking out a couple bombs a month indefinitely. Not to mention the conventional bombardment, which meant that they would essentially run out of targets big enough to hit within a year. And the starvation coming from the combination of the blockade and the inability to transport what food they did grow due to the complete destruction of their transportation grid...
In reality, I doubt any colony would have a massive population or vast urban sprawls anyway, so it would actually not be the bloodbath you seem to think it would be. Take Star Trek - most colonies are very small and when invaded and occupied it was done with relatively small forces. It would take centuries for a colony to get up to the size of Earth, at which point an invasion does become a problem
If the colony isn't heavily populated, it also probably hasn't been heavily fortified either (since spending on defenses would take away from the investment in actual useful infrastructure that the colony will need while it is growing). So stick a cruiser in orbit above each of the major cities, and selectively target any resistance (and I do mean selective; with complete orbital control and decent tech, you could drop a baseball on someone's head from orbit).

But the main problems remain:

-Any fleet capable of sending in ground troops is capable of sending in missiles (since each troop ship could have just been loaded with explosives instead).

-It's very unclear that any invasion would be less destructive than a bombardment anyway. Urban warfare is obviously monstrously destructive, but it's not even the worst case. Consider the example of invading an unterraformed colony, where people are still living in Outpost-like enclosed spaces (e.g. a moon base). To actually have troops invade, you have to penetrate the facility, and since they probably won't open their airlock voluntarily for your troops, that means you have to bust a hole in the wall and depressurize that section (presumably the colony will have auto-sealing sections to prevent one accident from killing everybody). You then will have to bust a hole in the automatic seal to get to the next section (because again, they won't open it for you unless they are surrendering). And repeat, until the place surrenders or the entire place has been depressurized (incidentally killing everyone, and probably causing massive damage to the infrastructure).

-If the populace is so fanatical they won't surrender even when they literally have no way of damaging your fleet, the last thing I want to do is expose my ground-troops to them. The fanatics won't be useful as a conquest (because they will continue to resist until the ground troops kill them anyway), and they will just get a bunch of my people killed. If I absolutely need something on the planet, I can selectively bombard defenses in that area until it is safe (and make it clear I'll bombard anyone building new defenses or approaching the area I am interested in). Yes, that will tie up a couple ships, but that's still far cheaper than supporting a full-fledged invasion/occupation. If I just want to deny the planet to my enemy, a couple ships in orbit to play watchman are perfectly adequate for that too. If I want the planet as a base, I am much better served building one in orbit or on an uninhabited planet in the system, since that way I don't have to worry about my important military institution being attacked by suicidal fanatics on the ground.
 
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If a fleet of a dozen spaceships (I've not seen many fleets bigger in the Screenies) turned up and there was substantial defences, why not?
Would you not give yourself up if there was only one AC-130 in a holding pattern above your house? Because at that point I'd probably be giving serious thought to just buying those stupid magazines they've been bothering me about.
 

stumason

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No yenz I didn't storm out, nor did I call everyone disagreeing with me stupid. I called the one person that cant understand flight time or ya know anything else anyone has said after its been repeatedly explained to him stupid and ignored him and carried on the debate with everyone able to string a sentence together yourself included :p

There is a world of difference between understanding something and agreeing with it - I am the latter, not the former. I think, judging by your writing style, grammar etc that you are highly likely to actually be more stupid than I am. Ironic that you should go on to talk about being able to string a sentence together, when you are quite clearly struggling to do so yourself! Ya know? Oh, see that? It's called a comma - try using them :p

You see, we can all piss on each other and call into question one's intelligence or we can keep it civil. That way, no one gets embarrassed ;)
 
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Would you not give yourself up if there was only one AC-130 in a holding pattern above your house? Because at that point I'd probably be giving serious thought to just buying those stupid magazines they've been bothering me about.

If I had a Rapier, or an S-300 system in the garden, I'd tell them to sod off and leave me be....
 
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Actually it did - It is painfully obvious you didn't watch it all or have simply forgotten. There were numerous episodes with the DS9 crew involved with ground combat on the surface alongside Federation forces battling wither Kilngon or Dominion invaders. For example, check out the "Episode Nor the Battle to the Strong" - You can apologise at your leisure.

Lol, this episode happens like almost entirely in the field hospital and is about Jake. There is nothing about how many Klingons there are, why they are attacking, what for and how many forces each side had. "Surprisingly" nothing about actual combat as well so gg, "good example". And please, do not even quote one when they crashed in Dominion ship on some deserted planet.

It is painfully obvious that for you more than four guys shooting at each other while standing on the ground is some big ass "ground combat". Even if it happens behind the scenes and there is literally nothing you could tell about it. So let me ask you, how on good ol' Earth it can be considered as an argument in "how to conquer a planet" discussion, huh? Those could be like hundred of warriors taking down local command centre or just casually slaughtering few civilians.

Star Trek does not portray proper ground warfare in any kind. This show wasn't about it.
 

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Star Trek does not portray proper ground warfare in any kind. This show wasn't about it.
Don't forget, in The Next Generation there is an "invasion force" of two thousand or so Romulans who would supposedly have been able to establish control over Vulcan (a planet populated by billions). It's not just not about ground warfare, they don't understand it at all.
 

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A figure of speech? It means something entirely different to what I said and the only reason you don't acknowledge that is because you know it to be true.
The only reason you mention it is because you know you are wrong and you are just trying to nitpick everything to wash down discussion or trying to tire, and thus make me go on my marry way. So, you know what I meant, stop pretending you do not.

At a very slow rate - perhaps one every couple of months. Anyway, my point stands - no war has been won with Airpower alone, that was mty orginal statement and it hasn't changed, nor have you proven it wrong. Citing an example of WMD use towards the end of a catastrophic war costing 50+ Million lives is not the same thing.

I see. So, war with Japan took a lot of life and then extremely powerful weapon dropped from the airplane ENDED it (before it took way more). So your advice for any admiral aiming at taking a planet would be to to wage ground war which would take a lot more than 50M+ even though he has war winning devices onboard? I must say I am not impressed.

It looks to me like that option in the screeny isn't even selectable, perhaps being greyed out.... I would assume you'd need the required techs?
That is one weird "I am sorry, I was wrong" but I will take it ^^

If a fleet of a dozen spaceships (I've not seen many fleets bigger in the Screenies) turned up and there was substantial defences, why not?

Well, suicidal fight seems widely spread on this forum so why not.
 

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Don't forget, in The Next Generation there is an "invasion force" of two thousand or so Romulans who would supposedly have been able to establish control over Vulcan (a planet populated by billions). It's not just not about ground warfare, they don't understand it at all.

Yea, I remember that one. They were commandos trying to take political centres on the planet and establish new government with the support of unification movement.


Good example, as they were stopped by Starfleet and destroyed by their own ships to avoid questions.
 

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Lol, this episode happens like almost entirely in the field hospital and is about Jake. There is nothing about how many Klingons there are, why they are attacking, what for and how many forces each side had. "Surprisingly" nothing about actual combat as well so gg, "good example". And please, do not even quote one when they crashed in Dominion ship on some deserted planet.

It is painfully obvious that for you more than four guys shooting at each other while standing on the ground is some big ass "ground combat". Even if it happens behind the scenes and there is literally nothing you could tell about it. So let me ask you, how on good ol' Earth it can be considered as an argument in "how to conquer a planet" discussion, huh? Those could be like hundred of warriors taking down local command centre or just casually slaughtering few civilians.

Star Trek does not portray proper ground warfare in any kind. This show wasn't about it.

Oh please, it is made clear in the context of the episode that the Klingons are invading and why on earth would they have a field hospital, full of people injured in fighting (not to mention the parts shown outside where they engage Klingons in battle) if there wasn't a fight going on?