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Junkfist

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I know what I've read

Well, what have you read?

Sorry I just find it frustrating that I keep seeing the boogeyman buzzwords of "elaborate-micromanagement-tactical-digging too deep-planetary assault interface" as the justification for either ignoring invasion mechanics or removing any simulation of it, as if any of those positions serve as the standard or norm in any way for what's being talked about.

Yeah, of course we shouldn't have a hex game with QTEs and army Limit Break prompts. Great. We all agree. The choice isn't that or No Ground Combat.
 
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Tim_Ward

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Well, what have you read?

Sorry I just find it frustrating that I keep seeing the boogeyman buzzwords of "elaborate-micromanagement-tactical-digging too deep-planetary assault interface" as the justification for either ignoring invasion mechanics or removing any simulation of it, as if any of those positions serve as the standard or norm in any way for what's being talked about.

Yeah, of course we shouldn't have a hex game with QTEs and army Limit Break prompts. Great. We all agree. The choice isn't that or No Ground Combat.

Seriously.
 
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TheFunMachine

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Well, what have you read?

Sorry I just find it frustrating that I keep seeing the boogeyman buzzwords of "elaborate-micromanagement-tactical-digging too deep-planetary assault interface" as the justification for either ignoring invasion mechanics or removing any simulation of it, as if any of those positions serve as the standard or norm in any way for what's being talked about.

OK? That has not been my overall position. Furthermore, I am not going to reference every discussion for every space 4x where ground combat or lack thereof has been a polemic of which there are many.

My position is both simple and clear, and where I agree wholly with Wiz, is that there are mechanics that better represent the strengths of Stellaris and should therefore be prioritized.
 
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Junkfist

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OK? That has not been my overall position. Furthermore, I am not going to reference every discussion for every space 4x where ground combat or lack thereof has been a polemic of which there are many.

My position is both simple and clear, and where I agree wholly with Wiz, is that there are mechanics that better represent the strengths of Stellaris and should therefore be prioritized.
I just asked what you were talking about.

Because it's not representative of what I'm seeing being discussed.

You say it's not your overall position that invasion mechanics should be ignored on the justification that it would lead to micromanagement, but say "many" suggestions, which I simply asked for some specification on, would naturally lead to micromanagement...culminating apparently in something like a planetary assault interface.
 
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TheFunMachine

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I mostly agree with Wiz about ground combat. I certainly think the current implementation of ground combat is way too micro-intensive for what it adds. My only regret at the thought of ground combat going away entirely would be how some of the cool, classic science fiction tropes would be ejected from the game in the process.

I feel like I do with Espionage. There's tendency for 4x wishlists to be filled with lots of 'deep' mechanics on paper, but the design often enough doesn't reflect the intention. I find the ground combat functional enough that I've never had a problem with it overall, other than it is a bit bland. The space combat makes up for that, for me at least.

Like Espionage, I would like Paradox to come up with an interesting concept, and design it in such a way that complements the game as a cohesive whole, rather than just be that feature that has to be in, because 4x.

I don't really agree with you, though on the current implementation being all that micro-intensive. It's just that adding something like fortifications or powers and another overlay would be irritating in my view for a game that has quite a lot sort of management to begins with. Would any of that add anything meaningful? There are ideas, but how do they fit into the overall design? How does it change the gameplay? Those are the sort of questions I think of.
 
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Medicine Man

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I feel like I do with Espionage. There's tendency for 4x wishlists to be filled with lots of 'deep' mechanics on paper, but the design often enough doesn't reflect the intention. I find the ground combat functional enough that I've never had a problem with it overall, other than it is a bit bland. The space combat makes up for that, for me at least.

Like Espionage, I would like Paradox to come up with an interesting concept, and design it in such a way that complements the game as a cohesive whole, rather than just be that feature that has to be in, because 4x.

I don't really agree with you, though on the current implementation being all that micro-intensive. It's just that adding something like fortifications or powers and another overlay would be irritating in my view for a game that has quite a lot sort of management to begins with. Would any of that add anything meaningful? There are ideas, but how do they fit into the overall design? How does it change the gameplay? Those are the sort of questions I think of.

Fair enough. Although I'm not actually suggesting that the ground combat system needs to be any deeper than it currently is, in fact I'm mostly arguing that I would not like to see it removed entirely, for several reasons. I like how certain science fiction tropes are represented in the ground combat system as it is now. In general I like how Stellaris is almost a coda to all kinds of space opera science fiction and would be sad to see it become less so, even while recognizing that such changes may be necessary. Most of the 'deep' mechanics you are imagining I'd like to see added to the game are already in the game. I am merely registering my preference for keeping them in some form.

As for the relative level of micro management required by the current system, I guess YMMV, But having a whole extra set of fleets to manage that do nothing but ferry troops around and the resulting game of whack a mole that develops when the AI uses its own armies is pretty tedious; moreover, the rapid turnover of planets is unlike any of Pdox's other games, most of which have abstracted and automated systems to manage garrisons. Let's not even talk about how attachments to armies are managed currently. It is hard to look at the current system and not imagine ways it could easily be improved.
 

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I feel like I do with Espionage. There's tendency for 4x wishlists to be filled with lots of 'deep' mechanics on paper, but the design often enough doesn't reflect the intention. I find the ground combat functional enough that I've never had a problem with it overall, other than it is a bit bland. The space combat makes up for that, for me at least.

Like Espionage, I would like Paradox to come up with an interesting concept, and design it in such a way that complements the game as a cohesive whole, rather than just be that feature that has to be in, because 4x.

I don't really agree with you, though on the current implementation being all that micro-intensive. It's just that adding something like fortifications or powers and another overlay would be irritating in my view for a game that has quite a lot sort of management to begins with. Would any of that add anything meaningful? There are ideas, but how do they fit into the overall design? How does it change the gameplay? Those are the sort of questions I think of.

Re: Espionage, I would like a spy network mechanic, where you spend influence on a planetary basis to invest in spies. *shifty eyes* So it's expensive to infiltrate every planet of every potential enemy, especially if they're large.
 

Zenicetus

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Yeah, of course we shouldn't have a hex game with QTEs and army Limit Break prompts. Great. We all agree. The choice isn't that or No Ground Combat.

My personal feeling is that I don't 'mind a middle ground, as long as it doesn't take more player time* or mouse clicks than it does right now. Some (not all) of the ideas proposed would clearly do that.

* By "time" I mean the player's time in pause mode. I don't think planets should necessarily be conquered immediately after clearing system space. That's a game balancing issue, not a micromanagement issue.
 

BTAxis

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I don't know if anyone else has said this, but if there's anything about invasions I feel could be better it's the bombing prior to landing the troops. You can set your bombing to three different modes, but I never bother with this choice as it isn't meaningful to me. I guess it affects the speed for the little counter that tells you when you can invade (because that's basically what it is), but I don't care. I just park my fleet on the planet and come back later anyway.

If any changes are to be made to invasions, I hope there is some change here. I'd like to be presented with a choice that has a meaningful consequence. Talking off the top of my head, it could be bombing to prepare for ground combat (as is the case currently), bombing to eliminate all possible resistance (faster, better advantage, lots of collateral damage) and outright glassing the planet into a tomb world (political consequences).

Or something! I'm sure someone else can think of something better. All I'm saying here is that for me, part of what makes invasions so rote stems from the uninteresting bombing.
 
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Cat_Fuzz

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To be fair if you had to streamline it, instead of having any ship bombard a planet, just so that you can then invade, why not have troop transports be the only shiptype that can bombard a planet?

Think about it - all that ground combat is right now is an additional screen after orbital bombardment that may or may not determine (though with the way the mechanics are now normally may) take the planet. Why not represent ground combat as the orbital bombardment? Give it a different name and change the policies on OB to reflect how aggressive your invasion force is and this could be how taking planets could be more interesting.

The tactical element is then set up in the 'space' section of gameplay. You need transports to take planets, however now that these are the only ships to be able to invade means you need to support them with fleets. Enemy can now intercept transports to stop invasions. Possibly you could also make it so that more transports in a fleet can take planets quicker?
 
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TheFunMachine

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As for the relative level of micro management required by the current system, I guess YMMV, But having a whole extra set of fleets to manage that do nothing but ferry troops around and the resulting game of whack a mole that develops when the AI uses its own armies is pretty tedious; moreover, the rapid turnover of planets is unlike any of Pdox's other games, most of which have abstracted and automated systems to manage garrisons. Let's not even talk about how attachments to armies are managed currently. It is hard to look at the current system and not imagine ways it could easily be improved.

Definitely, the planet turnover. It looks like 1.3 and beyond is going to address that somewhat by scaling back the number of habitable planets. I'm really looking forward to seeing how that pans out, as I always felt there were maybe too many planets you could colonize.
 
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Junkfist

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To be fair if you had to streamline it, instead of having any ship bombard a planet, just so that you can then invade, why not have troop transports be the only shiptype that can bombard a planet?

Think about it - all that ground combat is right now is an additional screen after orbital bombardment that may or may not determine (though with the way the mechanics are now normally may) take the planet. Why not represent ground combat as the orbital bombardment? Give it a different name and change the policies on OB to reflect how aggressive your invasion force is and this could be how taking planets could be more interesting.

The tactical element is then set up in the 'space' section of gameplay. You need transports to take planets, however now that these are the only ships to be able to invade means you need to support them with fleets. Enemy can now intercept transports to stop invasions. Possibly you could also make it so that more transports in a fleet can take planets quicker?

I think you're onto something, especially if you combine this idea with one where troops become modules or fill modules on an "invasion" ship type.
 

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To be fair if you had to streamline it, instead of having any ship bombard a planet, just so that you can then invade, why not have troop transports be the only shiptype that can bombard a planet?

Think about it - all that ground combat is right now is an additional screen after orbital bombardment that may or may not determine (though with the way the mechanics are now normally may) take the planet. Why not represent ground combat as the orbital bombardment? Give it a different name and change the policies on OB to reflect how aggressive your invasion force is and this could be how taking planets could be more interesting.

The tactical element is then set up in the 'space' section of gameplay. You need transports to take planets, however now that these are the only ships to be able to invade means you need to support them with fleets. Enemy can now intercept transports to stop invasions. Possibly you could also make it so that more transports in a fleet can take planets quicker?

Nah, regular ships act like the artillery of the invasion (carriers put fighters into atmosphere too). I like to compare it to a eu4 siege. Bombard until a breach is opened or the defenses are destroyed and then invade.
 

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They should definitely make it so a fleet that is attacked while bombarding a planet suffers evasion and rate of fire penalties for the duration of the battle. The player should be forced to decide if he wants to break off a planetary siege.
 

feezec

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The more I think about it, the more I agree that ground combat should be almost entirely removed. Stellaris is a strategy game. To make planetary combat interesting, it needs to involve choices at a tactical level, which would turn the game in to Stellaris: Total War. I love sci fi ground wars and I would love a Total War game in space, but Stellaris does not have room for those extra mechanics. If Stellaris is to have tactical gameplay decisions, they have to occur in space. Planetary tactical decisions simply become an distracting extraneous layer of tedium when all the other visually and mechanically interesting stuff happens in space.

I think the best compromise is to import EU4's siege mechanics into Stellaris.

In EU4 you need a minimum number infantry to besiege a fort. For Stellaris replace infantry with spaceship-borne marines. From a lore perspective, pretend that the besieging marines are launching constant raids on the planet's surface, like the Mobile Infantry raids against the Skinnies in the Starship Troopers book.
Marines fill a slot in the ship designer. Corvette and Destroyer Marines are good at capturing/impairing/damaging enemy ships in boarding actions during space combat. Cruiser and Battleship marines are good at besieging planets and assaulting planets whose defenses have been breached. Filling more slots with marines makes a ship more resistant to boarding actions. If your empire's primary species and ethics are Strong and/or Militarist, you get bonuses to marine combat strength.

Special army types are special marine ship slot components, analogous to crystal armor plating or mining drone lasers. These special marine types have unique advantages and trade-offs. Xenomorph marines deal extra damage in offensive boarding actions, but do not contribute to the chance of capturing enemy ships or repelling enemy marines. Robot marines deal extra damage, but have increased maintenance cost (and might seize control of your ships during the AI crisis). Slave marines deal decreased damage, but cost less power in the ship designer. Titanic Beast armies have increased planetary siege and planetary assault stats, but are useless in boarding actions.

In EU4 you receive siege bonuses for having artillery in your besieging army. For Stellaris replace artillery with the bombardment power of the besieging fleet. Small weapons provide very little bombardment power, while Large weapons provide lots of bombardment power.

While besieging a planet a fleet costs extra maintenance, analogous to EU4 attrition. This models the cost of regularly resupplying the fleet with troops, fuel, and ammunition. Planets with modifiers like ring systems or magnetic fields inflict increased attrition on besieging fleets.

A planet's defensive stats increase with its number of tiles, number and level of buildings, number of pops (especially resilient pops), the level of its capitol building, and the presence/level of an FTL Jammer building.

Once you have fully sieged down a planet, you can land some of your ships on the planet, thereby garrisoning it with the ships' marines. Ungarrisoned worlds will be instantly liberated if an enemy fleets enters orbit. With a garrison, the liberating fleet will be forced to first siege down the planet.

In EU4 forts make a province impassable to enemy armies. FTL Jammer buildings fulfill a similar roll. Your fleets can freely enter an FTL Jammer system. However, as long as the Jammer is active, your fleet can only depart the system by returning along their original approach vector. You can disable the Jammer and press forward into enemy territory by detaching a fleet to besiege the planet. However, if you do this too many times in a row your main fleet will end up understrength deep in enemy territory relying on a string of exposed besieging fleet detachments to keep the road home open. Systems with multiple inhabited planets, each of which has a FTL Jammer, are a pain in the ass to pass through.

It is a relatively trivial matter to simply route your fleets through uninhabited and therefore un-jammed star systems. However, this will make your pathing more awkward, more predictable, and therefore more vulnerable to ambush.

Admirals cannot be placed in or removed from command of a fleet while the fleet is outside of friendly territory. A two-star admiral can ignore the effects of a level one FTL Jammer, a three-star admiral can ignore a level two Jammer, etc. A five-star admiral is therefore an invaluable and painstakingly cultivated asset, capable of freely traversing enemy territory in lightning offensives. Level one and level two jammers require a Planetary Administration building on the planet. Level three and level four jammers require a Planetary Capitol building on the planet.

The Empire-Capitol Complex building lets you upgrade a level four jammer into a Fleet Command Complex. The FCC gives significant combat bonuses to friendly fleets in the capital star system and gives a significant FTL speed bonus to friendly fleets departing the capital star system. This makes the capital star system a useful transit hub for defending the inner empire, and a place to gamble a decisive battle that may route the invading fleet.
 
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grommile

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They should definitely make it so a fleet that is attacked while bombarding a planet suffers evasion and rate of fire penalties for the duration of the battle. The player should be forced to decide if he wants to break off a planetary siege.
Fun fact: the status quo in Stellaris is that if your bombardment fleet is attacked, your siege is terminated and the planet's defenders can start rebuilding the defences.
 
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Daimonin

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Fun fact: the status quo in Stellaris is that if your bombardment fleet is attacked, your siege is terminated and the planet's defenders can start rebuilding the defences.

Ugh and the worst part is when your fleet finishes obliterating the 1 corvette that they HAD to attack, they don't even go back to sieging automatically. It's rather odd considering Wiz's supposed dislike of micro, seeing as it's one of the biggest sources of (annoying) micro in wars. Kinda makes me think he's full of it.
 
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Daimonin

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Wow, really? ... o_O
Kinda makes me think they've not touched ground combat since it was rushed in for release and haven't yet settled on how they want to re-design it.

The main stance against any expansion on ground combat seems to be "too much micro". I can safely say, I would much prefer to have to select a ground invasion behaviour or some such, to having to manually re-deploy my orbital bombardment fleet EVERY SINGLE TIME that a science vessel passes close by.
The first is micro that adds options and interest to the game.
The second is pointless and really annoying micro that does nothing and has no point, and I hope it's actually a bug that will be fixed rather then a feature.
 
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