Greater and lesser germany

[unmerged(140914)]

will there be any way to form a greater Germany? not quite like Hitler's, but something like the revolutionaries of 1848 wanted. I think that it would be alright if all of the territory in the German Confederation could be Prussian/German cores. I hope that this isn't too closely related with National socialism and doesn't make people uncomfortable.

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~wggerman/map/images/ceneur1815.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleindeutschland_and_Großdeutschland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Großdeutschen_Reiches.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map-GermanConfederation.svg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Deutscher_Bund.svg

 

[the_legion]

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=484322

There's a "Three Hurrays for Germany"-decission in the recent screen,
so I guess Kings answer would be:

yes

 

[Zelvik]

will there be any way to form a greater Germany? not quite like Hitler's, but something like the revolutionaries of 1848 wanted. I think that it would be alright if all of the territory in the German Confederation could be Prussian/German cores. I hope that this isn't too closely related with National socialism and doesn't make people uncomfortable.

A greater Germany isnt at all associated with National Socialilsm in the timeframe. It was a potential outcome of the process, though very improbable because of the structure of the Austrian Empire.

The small solution sought by Bismark in the end, and excluding Austria was very much a consequence of this. Up until 1867 it was undecided what way the German countries might have gone and there are quite some points where history might have gone a completly different way - iE if Austria had lost its Hungarian domains in 1848. Depending on how Austria might have proceeded afterwards everything from a Prussian dominated Greater Germany to a Austria dominated confederation or an even larger realm (including Venetia and Galicia) might have been possible. But in the end it all boils down to the development of the Austrian hegemony in the German realm and wheter it stays a multiethnic state or not - which was not what German nationalists would have wanted.

There even were plans for a greater Austria, that would have encompassed all the Austrian realms and the German Confederation. Though this would probably have shaped quite differently, more along the lines of a economic union and strong ties in foreign policy. But that is a very improbable outcome as Austria would need to be extremly dominating within the German realms and probably would face both France and Russia opposing such powerconcentration in one Empire.

 

[telesien]

I can't rememeber if this wasn't just in VIP, but in original Vicky you could create liberal Germany in 1848.

Now there are problems with creating of Greater Germany. Either you can just have lesser Germany that is more liberal (if the national values are still in which I doubt) or go for Ausrian lands. That would of course require either Austria being the force under unified Germany (which is possible) or very weak Austria.

Weak Austria can let some parts go. Those parts could be Bohemia (read about Frankfurt assembly for details) or maybe Salzburg (long-time Bavarian town). Other option can be Austria overrun by pan-german or early anarcho-liberal rebels or totally crushed by Prussia or Bavaria.

 

[the_legion]

So yes, the Greater Empire is in.

And Hell yeah, history would have went in a completely different
direction if there would have been a unified Germany-Austria with
a democratic constitution based on the principals of Liberalism.
But that's not part of this topic and if topic-questions are answered
and go OT they usually get closed ... in 3, 2, 1...

 

[Andrelvis]

There even were plans for a greater Austria, that would have encompassed all the Austrian realms and the German Confederation. Though this would probably have shaped quite differently, more along the lines of a economic union and strong ties in foreign policy. But that is a very improbable outcome as Austria would need to be extremly dominating within the German realms and probably would face both France and Russia opposing such powerconcentration in one Empire.

Which plans?

 

[the_legion]

Which plans?

As everybody (should) speak german, read our Wiki:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Großösterreich

OT END

 

[unmerged(150720)]

The event occured in V1, so i guess V2 as well.

There were also the North and South German confederation in.

 

[gadajs]

Ok, back on topic now. We know that Austria will be somehow able to form an Austria centered German Empire. I am going to assume that this will include all of Prussia and the north German states, as well as making North German pops as an accepted culture.

Will Prussia have a similar option? As in, if things go historically, and Prussia unifies Germany under Prussian rule after the Franco-Prussian war, will they get an option to go further and get Austria as well?

 

[Hardstuff]

As everybody (should) speak german, read our Wiki:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Großösterreich

OT END

Never.

 

[unmerged(213126)]

As everybody (should) speak german, read our Wiki:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Großösterreich

OT END

I am sorry but I do not speak german so may I ask you for translation of this article? I see that you can speak english very well so you can translate it to english, then I would translate it to polish and so on. But wait... I think I have found it in english - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleindeutschland_and_Großdeutschland

And how about the idea of Great Germany in Victoria II? Yeah, I hope we will see it in game.

Best regards from Poland for my German comrades

 

[unmerged(138342)]

Even if possible, it should be difficult to achieve. I can see everyone playing with Prussia or Austria going that way. It should bring you a lot of badboy.

 

[gadajs]

Oh absolutely. I imagine that you would not be able to do this without angering the british and Russians. The french should have just been beaten, so they could be left out of it, but I would imagine a 3 way war to stop this from happening.

 

[unmerged(75409)]

I am sorry but I do not speak german so may I ask you for translation of this article? I see that you can speak english very well so you can translate it to english, then I would translate it to polish and so on. But wait... I think I have found it in english - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleindeutschland_and_Großdeutschland

And how about the idea of Great Germany in Victoria II? Yeah, I hope we will see it in game.

Best regards from Poland for my German comrades

The idea was that Austria (all of it) and the German confederation would merge into a supranational block of states. The block would have common institutions such as a house of representatives into which the member states would send delegates. The plan did not find many fans, though, neither among the German nationalists nor (understandably) among the nationalists within the Austrian Empire. Also the German states objected, they did not want to be swallowed up by Austria.

Basically it was a plan for propaganda purposes: It was published after the squashing of the 1848/49 revolutions, at a time when Prussia was agitating for its plan of a Lesser German union. (Same concept but without Austria). The Austrian chancellor Schwarzenberg needed to show some superficial support for the pan-German ideas that were floating around at the time and which were agitating even conservative people who did not like Liberalism.

Schwarzenberg knew no one would accept the plan, but he wanted to stop the public debate from turning into an Austria-bashing contest, so to say. (Austria-bashing was very popular after the way they had only survived the revolutions due to Russian intervention, and due to how they had squashed the German nationalists using Croatian troops.) Thus he made the proposal to show that Austria was not against pan-German projects in principle, and that Austria could accept this fictious Greater Germany under some (huge) conditions.

It is in a way similar to the "Fürstentag" proposal which a later Austrian chancellor (I forgot his name) introduced in 1863, offering vague ideas of yet another Austrian-dominated closer German Confederation. Again they only made those ideas when they had to: In 1863 people could sense that a conflict over the future of Germany was coming, everybody knew what Prussia wanted (domination of Germany without Austria) and the nationalists knew what they wanted (a German Nation united under one banner, regardless of whose banner it was). Austria was again "out of the loop" and needed to present some ideas to show they were not irrelevant to the political debate.

Austria's true interests in 1849 and 1863 were the same as they had been all the time: Prevent German unification, preserve the Status Quo, avoid discussion about liberal and nationalist ideals, keep power centralized within the Habsburg monarchy, promote sentimental loyalty towards the Habsburg dynasty.

They had a keen sense that any serious discussion about nationalist was (for Austria) a slippery that led to rebellion, revolution and the end of their Empire. The only way they saw to keep the Empire intact was to derail and damage every attempt at German unification, and avoid outbreaks of nationalism within their Empire. This is the context within which you have to see those proposals.

Within the game of course you could try and make Austria an active player in the game of nationalism. But it should be clear that the result of any moves towards a German nation state will cause massive revolts in the non-German parts of the Empire, and German unification would come out to be something of a zero sum game for an Austrian player... you win Germany, but you lose the rest of your Empire. Unless you play whack-a-rebel for 10-20 years and roleplay your new Empire as the Iron Fisted Germanic Empire of Doom

 

[unmerged(75409)]

Oh absolutely. I imagine that you would not be able to do this without angering the british and Russians. The french should have just been beaten, so they could be left out of it, but I would imagine a 3 way war to stop this from happening.

The British might not care, but the Russians would probably not like the idea of having a Germanic Empire stretching from the Baltic Sea to the Carpathians on their western border. Imagine playing Russia and noticing that Austria has annexed all of Germany and is now at -200 relations with you.

 

[gadajs]

I think the industrial heartland of Europe uniting to become an economic behemoth would interest the British very, very much.

 

[unmerged(75409)]

I think the industrial heartland of Europe uniting to become an economic behemoth would interest the British very, very much.

In 1848? I doubt it. Britain cared about the high seas and about export markets. Germany wasn't such an economic superpower then. But that's stuff for the history forum...

 

[ollobrains]

ahistorical could be interesting

 

[Zelvik]

In 1848? I doubt it. Britain cared about the high seas and about export markets. Germany wasn't such an economic superpower then. But that's stuff for the history forum...

The two main opponents would be France and Russia for sure. But Brittain in such a conflict would probably play a vital role. What side they would ally or support though is probably dependent on how the conflict on the continent evolves. At the time it did not have major quarrels with Austria or Prussia and felt more threatened by a reemerging France (that challenged time and again its role as the prime naval power) and Russian conquests in central Asia. Though a dramatic shift of power in central Europe, for example a Austro-German Empire defeating Russia or France and expanding on their cost probably would upset the British quite a bit as in the long run it might endanger their ability to maintain a balance of power on the continent. They might not directly intervene but do what they often did and finance the war effort of one of the two sides.

 

[telesien]

The two main opponents would be France and Russia for sure. But Brittain in such a conflict would probably play a vital role. What side they would ally or support though is probably dependent on how the conflict on the continent evolves. At the time it did not have major quarrels with Austria or Prussia and felt more threatened by a reemerging France (that challenged time and again its role as the prime naval power) and Russian conquests in central Asia. Though a dramatic shift of power in central Europe, for example a Austro-German Empire defeating Russia or France and expanding on their cost probably would upset the British quite a bit as in the long run it might endanger their ability to maintain a balance of power on the continent. They might not directly intervene but do what they often did and finance the war effort of one of the two sides.

That could actually be reason to support Germany as counter-weight against France. Just like they did in 7 years war with Prussia. Britain has a noble tradition of "divide and rule" politics both on geopolitical and local stage.

V2 needs realy smart diplomatic AI to pull such things in both historical and logical (and yet sometimes unexpected) way