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Losttruppen

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Among many other things about 2.2, the Great Khan seems to have been overlooked from a balance perspective. Aside from the normal problems this "crisis" presents such as having to spend influence to reclaim all the lost territory, even on Admiral difficulty the AI empires have next to no chance against the initial onslaught and become satrapys one after the next until he dies from an event.

This results in a ~25k fleet being created per satrapy, regardless of how much that empire could realistically provide in materiel support, which are then used to snowball and conquer AI after AI and if the Khan started on the other side of the galaxy the player will have a significant number of fleets appearing all at once and carving huge chunks out of your territory with not a chance to defeat them. Each fleet spawns with a galleon, which has an absurd 47% evasion and 65k health which I believe is the central issue of power that the current Alloy economy can't compete with unless you've run away with the game completely by the time this event occurs.

My suggestion would be to have these fleets created in the same way as federation fleets, as that is almost exactly what they are. The galleon also needs to be looked at as those stats are absurd for a battleship equivalent. It just seems right now that this event is an immediate loss or the Khan dies on his own without ever affecting the player, and just leaves me with a sense of despair after 200 years of gameplay and having it end with no ability to influence it unless you are far surpassing the AI empires in power.

20190106082727_1.jpg 20190106085952_1.jpg

There are at least 5 fleets in the second shot, after having killed 2 others at a cost of approximately 1500 alloys per engagement. None of these fleets are led by the Khan so if I want to survive I need to destroy every last one. The AI empires have opened their borders to me (despite being at -1000 rep from some purging) but they won't strike the Khan's weakened borders or assist me with these fleets. The satrapy the fleets came through has come behind the fleets and reclaimed all my lost territory and to claim it back will take probably 2 wars worth of influence costs. This is beyond broken.
 
Last edited:

KingAlamar

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In both of my games in 2.2.x the Khan has always had a wormhole that lead to my territory within 1-2 hyperspace jumps from their territory. With travel speed restrictions if the Khan spawns on the other side of the galaxy, esp. if you haven't explored all wormholes in the galaxy, he could snowball not giving the player much of a chance to defeat them.

Having the Khan's fleets all be "federation" fleets and having each Satrapy (sp?) contribute 20% of their naval capacity sounds as if it may be workable. The downside is that I doubt the Khan would be much of a threat unless the additional fleet capacity spawned for "free" and nearly immediately.

With the system(s) in place now my only thoughts would be:
  • Grab a mod that "fixes" some of the Stellaris issues [AI]
  • Delay the onset of mid-game by 25 years. I found that my military strength was really shooting up quickly around the time the Khan would show their face. That extra 25 years might be enough for the rest of the galaxy to at least slow the progress of the Khan.
Note in my prior ironman game I delayed the Khan by 25 years and his advance through the galaxy stalled out after taking just a few systems. Granted a good chunk of their fleet was lost trying to take my territory first [wormholes] so it's hard to say what would have happened if they had no way to get to me.
 

Losttruppen

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Yeah I play Ironman so no mods. I just threw out that save after about 12 hours because of this nonsense. Satrapys that are pathetic in fleet, economy, and tech, provide several of these overpowered fleets on top of their regular fleets. I play with delayed mid and endgame settings and there were only 3 empires equivalent in power to me when this hit. This is not challenging or engaging gameplay, its broken mechanics to make up for inadequate threats from the AI empires after the early game. I killed 4 of these fleets before one flew in system just as I finished the last and completely wiped my weakened fleets. The khan had been dead for 2 years while they continued to ravage my territory.
 

Kipperian

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Your empire in almost 2400 is quite small and thus the alloy output is rather small too. In my 2.2 run, I am pumping out 180 alloys per month as a pacifist in 2300. You have only 6 planets in 2400. I understand you made a decision to play tall, that is fine, but do not expect to be able to counter mid- and end- game threats with that setup
 

Hecktor

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Your empire in almost 2400 is quite small and thus the alloy output is rather small too. In my 2.2 run, I am pumping out 180 alloys per month as a pacifist in 2300. You have only 6 planets in 2400. I understand you made a decision to play tall, that is fine, but do not expect to be able to counter mid- and end- game threats with that setup

You can be really unfortunate with planets / space and factions like marauders and FE's next to you. Thats why i always check my environment for the first 5-10 years. If its not good enough i restart.
 

KingAlamar

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In my first game in 2.2.x I wasn't playing ironman. By late 2390s I didn't have a lot either. I was something like:

  • 10 planets
  • 160 net alloys / mo
  • 13 / 17 starbases
  • 80 K of fleet power ; 304 'hulls' out of 534 capacity
  • Had just started making my push as my first fleet of BBs was in process of hitting the field
  • 10 K starbase on a Nuetron star [taking advantage of 'no shield'] waiting for the Khan to come through the wormhole with most of my fleet waiting for them

When I saw what the Khan could do I decided that I'd have to change strategies. Always be at [or near] fleet cap ; find ways to expand the fleet cap ; Agressively build up defenses at choke points -- esp. those that happen to give you a strategic advantage ; have enough alloys & energy to be build then deploy the fleet as needed.

Note: In my last two ironman games I delayed the Khan 25 years. On Commodore difficulty that seems about right because I honestly don't play great so need the extra time. I'm trying Admiral / no scaling / agressive AI / ironman [no mods] in my current playthrough. We'll have to see how that goes.
 

Losttruppen

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Your empire in almost 2400 is quite small and thus the alloy output is rather small too.

This game was on admiral difficulty and I was the second most powerful empire. It was also life-seeded and so I literally could not do anything more, but even if I could I would have just been running away with the game relative to the other AIs. My major gripe is the fact the AI who posed a decent threat to me all game got walked over one after another which just contributed more to the Khan snowballing through the galaxy, and then sending 10 fleets with 15k fleet power galleons at the helm of each one.

This is not balanced with the rest of the difficulty in the game. If you think my output was inadequate, why was I able to win every single war up to this point.
 

Sayakus

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Well in my current game Great Khan started around 2350. Died twice against AI and crisis ended really quickly.
Im using Glavius AI so normal empires actually do not suicide.
 

01d55

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In my current game the Great Khan ripped off a hunk of my territory, including Yuht precursor system, before I tapped out for fear of losing my capitol. Becoming a Satrap for a couple of years turned out to be not very punishing, and when the Khan died I wasn't beholden to the successor state. Taking back My Stuff afterwards was a bit of a hassle, but there were multiple successors so it could have been worse.

All in all if I had a khan pop that close to my territory again I'd Satrap out instantly.
 

Losttruppen

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All in all if I had a khan pop that close to my territory again I'd Satrap out instantly.

That seems like too easy a solution, especially since the Khan pretty much always dies after X years. I'm not sure what the intended function of this "crisis" was, but if its a matter of become a satrapy at almost no cost or lose why ever fight this threat instead of submitting and waiting it out?

My solution of the auxiliary fleets being like federation fleets would actually solve the problem of the Khan gaining an infinite source of overpowered fleets by having these fleets be based on the economies the Satrapys can actually provide while giving a disadvantage to those who submit in the form of losing a large chunk of production and fleet power potential and thus being exposed to retaliation from those that resist.

I wouldn't mind if the Khan had a few overpowered fleets you would need to react strongly to, but getting multiple per conquered AI seems a recipe for an unstoppable snowball as seen in my OP.
 

01d55

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The function of the great Khan is to generate one or more successor states - the more territory the khan takes, the stronger the successors. Unlike the Khan, successors are managable, since they inherit galleons they are unlikely to be pushovers, and they're always going to be xenophobic militarists.

Tapping out boosts the Khanquest, so I wouldn't do it if I felt like I could wait out the storm or hold off the Khan's fleets - that includes time to move fleets to systems likely to be attacked and not having another war going at the same time.
 

Kilmantor

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The Khan was always strong mit somehow manageable in the old system.
The point now are alloys. You are always short on alloys and if you loose your first fight, it takes way to long to get back on your feet and defend against the horde.
Only thing that worked for me some times is facing them at a chokepoint with the combined power of your whole fleet and a full build fortress-starbase.

To be honest if I get the horde and my fleet it somewhat weak or I don't have a good chokepoint to defent, I reload and hope that one of the other marauders awakes next time.
 

nuyu

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The Khan was always strong mit somehow manageable in the old system.
The point now are alloys. You are always short on alloys and if you loose your first fight, it takes way to long to get back on your feet and defend against the horde.
Only thing that worked for me some times is facing them at a chokepoint with the combined power of your whole fleet and a full build fortress-starbase.

To be honest if I get the horde and my fleet it somewhat weak or I don't have a good chokepoint to defent, I reload and hope that one of the other marauders awakes next time.

You can't reload while playing Ironman mode.
 

roman566

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I had Khan three times. Three times he suicided against a Citadel. Two times I didn't even have to do a thing. If anything, Khan needs a serious boost as a Citadel without any support can defeat his main fleet.
 

Losttruppen

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that includes time to move fleets to systems likely to be attacked and not having another war going at the same time.

Your excuse for the Khan rolling over half the map and gaining a 25k fleet per AI is that I shouldn't be attacked by aggressive AI and preempt exactly where these 10 fleets should come from? That is an absurd suggestion and doesn't address the fact that my fleet which was the strongest in the galaxy at the time couldn't take on a single one without incurring heavy losses and retreating.

This event is completely outside the balance of this game run on Admiral up until this happened and the difficulty is a direct consequence of the that unbalance in force between the AI empires and this "crisis".