• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Sute]{h

Field Marshal
88 Badges
Jun 25, 2002
3.505
199
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis: Rome Collectors Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
I don't get it. Why focus on province culture when it had almost zero effect within this timeframe. Loyalities wasn't to ones culture (nationalism) it was to ones extended family, religion and in some cases king. Danish and Swedish kings ruled parts of Germany without more severe problems than they faced at home. Hell the Danish king and his military even spoke German for much of this timeframe without this affecting his ability to govern Denmark in any way.

Really cultural differences in Europe has been assigned far to much significance compared to their influence on European history within this timeframe.
 

Skarion

Field Marshal
23 Badges
Jul 3, 2004
3.436
2
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • 500k Club
  • 200k Club
  • Magicka
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
I don't get it. Why focus on province culture when it had almost zero effect within this timeframe. Loyalities wasn't to ones culture (nationalism) it was to ones extended family, religion and in some cases king. Danish and Swedish kings ruled parts of Germany without more severe problems than they faced at home. Hell the Danish king and his military even spoke German for much of this timeframe without this affecting his ability to govern Denmark in any way.

Well, yeah.

But instead look on Bornholm or Scania there the local population rose up against the invaders at plenty of occurances?

Rather I myself believe that the cultures awareness (nationalism to some extent) rose up at different times in different areas, for example currently ingame woke up at about the same momment as the game start in Sweden, while in Denmark it woke first up when the king Fredrik (And a number) asked the people of Copenhagen to rise up on the walls to protect the city in the 17th century.

Then Germany, Russia, the balkan, France and England reached nationalism instead as late as in the 19th century.
 

Jolt

General
17 Badges
May 29, 2005
1.838
343
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
Well, I was gonna ask the question, but since he's banned, meh. "Since Nationalism appeared in 1789 with the French Revolution, then we are supposed to get what of that? In 1789 all provinces under the proposed assimilation suggestion by him suddenly raise up in a nationalistic cry, raising RR? Do we need to hope that the French defeat Austria/Prussia/England/Spain? and Holland, and get Napoleon go around Europe with his armies to get the Nationalistic RR? What if the French Rebellion is quelled? The proposal would stay until the game ended? Meh."
 

hjarg

Insert witty title here
105 Badges
Dec 23, 2000
6.252
2.059
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis: Rome Collectors Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Victoria 2
Just scared the poor bugger away then!
 

Herr Doctor

Learned cat
18 Badges
Jul 11, 2002
3.876
184
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Cities in Motion
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II
Skarion said:
Well, yeah.

But instead look on Bornholm or Scania there the local population rose up against the invaders at plenty of occurances?
It is about the understanding of legitimacy of the monarchs, which ruled them, not nationalism. The Danish kings were Germans anyway you know. ;)
 

Markusw7

Slave to the Magyar
105 Badges
May 29, 2004
2.896
1.835
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Majesty 2
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Sengoku
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Magicka
  • War of the Roses
  • 200k Club
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis: Rome Collectors Edition
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Diplomacy
  • Dungeonland
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
Herr Doctor said:
It is about the understanding of legitimacy of the monarchs, which ruled them, not nationalism. The Danish kings were Germans anyway you know. ;)

Didn't the Danish Kings inherit Holstein and thus the people accepted them as their rightful ruler?
 

Herr Doctor

Learned cat
18 Badges
Jul 11, 2002
3.876
184
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Cities in Motion
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II
Markusw7 said:
Didn't the Danish Kings inherit Holstein and thus the people accepted them as their rightful ruler?
This “Danish” King was Christian I, no one else but Count Christian VI of Oldenburg and Delmenhorst, who was crowned in 1448 (after the death of previous "German" Danish King Christopher of Bavaria) as the claimant from Erik V… He founded the Royal dynasty which rules Denmark until our days ;)
 

unmerged(26270)

Second Lieutenant
Feb 27, 2004
150
0
Loyalities wasn't to ones culture (nationalism) it was to ones extended family, religion and in some cases king.
But what about the countries where religion didn't play a big role, king was the representant of nobility and the nobility viewed itself as group apart from the rest of European nobles ? :D
 

Carewolf2

Lord of Misfits
40 Badges
Mar 30, 2004
1.656
447
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Victoria 2 A House Divided Beta
  • Surviving Mars
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Prison Architect
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
Herr Doctor said:
This “Danish” King was Christian I, no one else but Count Christian VI of Oldenburg and Delmenhorst, who was crowned in 1448 (after the death of previous "German" Danish King Christopher of Bavaria) as the claimant from Erik V… He founded the Royal dynasty which rules Denmark until our days ;)

No. First Denmark changed royal family sometime in the 19th century. Second the kings where only "german" because the younger brothers and daughters usually got married away to german states and thus inherited their german state names, which they took with them back to Denmark when the older brother died without an heir.
Denmark is unique in the sense that the current queen can trace a direct heritage all the way back to the oldest known kings of Denmark (actually most royalties in Europa can be traced back to the oldest known kings of Denmark, just not the oldest known kings of their own countries ;-)

The language spoken in the courts however where rarely danish, and changed with the latest royal fashions between french and german.

Notice also that "german" makes no sense in this timeframe. There are bigger cultural differences between high and low german than between low german and danish.
 

unmerged(2456)

Pure Evil Genius
Mar 29, 2001
11.211
0
www.hero6.com
Herr Doctor said:
It is about the understanding of legitimacy of the monarchs, which ruled them, not nationalism. The Danish kings were Germans anyway you know. ;)
looking at legitimacy only works for Europe really. Outside europe this system breaks down.
 

Herr Doctor

Learned cat
18 Badges
Jul 11, 2002
3.876
184
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Cities in Motion
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II
Carewolf2 said:
No. First Denmark changed royal family sometime in the 19th century. Second the kings where only "german" because the younger brothers and daughters usually got married away to german states and thus inherited their german state names, which they took with them back to Denmark when the older brother died without an heir.
It did not change to anything. The Glücksburgs (since Christian IX) are just a branch of the Oldenburgs (Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg).
 

unmerged(43658)

Captain
Apr 28, 2005
392
0
i must say i don't really understand all this "there was no influence of nations, and nationalism in europe prior to 1789" thing. i just read cesar's galic wars and there he was describing clearly defined nations (tribes or call them how ever you want). group of people sharing common language customs, claiming teritory wich they consider they own, and so on. Such thing didn't just disapeared in medieval europe just becouse kingdoms where ruled by kings who had nothing against extending their rule over "national borders" creating multiethnical countries. I belive average medieval peasant was well avare to whitch nation he belongs to.
Many misunderstanding comes (imho) from the fact that nationality isnt fixed in stone or even in genes. nations change constantly evolve you might say. several nations can merge to create bigger one, or one nation can split in two or more smaller ones. and goverment and politics do play great role in this process.
it would be really shame to see all this left out in a eu3 (as it was mostly in eu2 when province culture was set in stone) specialy because period of the game is actualy time when modern european nations where formed. even in modern world this constant process of forming nations are visible. who can dispute that americans (usa americans) are not a nation, canadians are nation too, but if history wanted diferently and usa bought or conquered canada in 19th century today there would be no such thing as canadians (perhaps as geographical term but not as a nation). on the other hand we have basks (this is probably spelled wrong, but im talking about atletico bilbao fans :) ) who are ruled by spain for god knows how long and obviouosly they will never become spainrads, and remain basks forever.
I think nation building could be simulated in the game, but concept of all cultures are diferent should be canged drasticly off course and some other things should come in play such as race (important thing in nation building).
my sugestion would be creatin couple of "layers of culture" (i belive someone sugested same thing for religion). first layer could be 1)general people groups (indo european..) than 2)subfamily of a group (slavic, german, celts..) and 3) nation/tribe. this way you could say for instance (indo-european)-->(slavic)-->(croat) and (indo-european)-->(slavic)-->(serb ) can in right circumstances (living in same kingdom long enough, having same religion, being in geographical proximity) easily become (indo-european)-->(slavic)-->(yugoslav) or one nation assimilates another if it's in significant majority. but on the other hand it is much harder for (i think non indo europeans)--(xy)-->(basque) to assimilate in (indoeuropean)--..-->(spanish). there are offcoure lot's of bonuses and minuses that would determine wheter "merge" or assimilation takes place. nationonal identity is stronger if national state exist, religion, political preassure and so on. austria for example (i-e)-->(german)-->(aus) can hardly convert (i-e)-->(slavic)-->(czech) becouse they are diferent in 2. category not to mention ugric maygars. thing would work other way around. if there are two rival countries big enough and so on.. with same state or major
culture, (german) both in brandenbourg and in austria. they become separate distinguish nations austrians and germans. this would mean that it is possible to create pan germanic empire with strong united german nation from baltic to balkan all feelin as member of one culture/nation, but also that germans could splitt up to several separated nations prussians, bavarians and austrians for example.
There should be perhaps DP slider that determens how do you treat diferent ethnic groups in your kingdom. if you prefer one and look down on another than you will either make them rebell, loose significance (less income in that province but less impact they have on whole empire?) or assimilate them, treat everyone as equalls and you get a chance to create new nation. people fell good in their country/kingdom they are loyal to it's king so they start feeling like members of one the same group, that is how new nation is born. for instance if all ethnic groups in austrian empire felt like equals, instead of beeing opresed by state favored german culture it is not so unlikely that over time they would developed higher level of cohesion witch could led to creating new austrian nation. so you would have provinces with (german)-->(austrian), (slavic)-->(austrian), (ugric)-->(austrian) culture, effectivly all beeing same culture with all bonuses that give you. offcourse that would be a lengty proces and player should have long term plan wheter it pays off. it could also affact irational expanding whitch is never a bad thing . not all provinces would have lowest 3 category stricly defined, so there could be lots of generic (slavic), (celtic).. provinces who are just waiting for stronger coutry (player) to give them more specific culture belonging.
 
Last edited:

Sute]{h

Field Marshal
88 Badges
Jun 25, 2002
3.505
199
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis: Rome Collectors Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
We aren't claim that people didn't have a collective identity prior to nationalism. What we are saying is that that collective identity revolved around another unit than the nation. You mention tribes as a possibility. Another could be family, crown, town or class. The broader term nation including every member of the political community didn't really appear in force before the liberal ideology appeared.

Using the Roman Empire as a case for gaelic nationalism is really streching it IMHO. After the Roman victory in Gaul most if not all of the conquered acceptered Roman rule after all. Actually the achievements of the Roman Empire to rule the known world is more like proof that nations really didn't matter. Sure there were resistance from time to time in the various regions, but not more than what premodern societies usually see.

Really I'm not arguing that no cultural identity exists, but rather that it is completely irrelevant for a countries ability to rule a given province within this timeframe. Religion on the other hand did matter quite a bit.
 

Hyzhenhok

Lt. General
78 Badges
Jul 22, 2003
1.329
75
Visit site
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
The Ottoman Empire managed to govern both wrong religion and wrong cultured provinces well within the EU3 time period. The negative effects of wrong cultured provinces should be reduced, and even wrong religion, should be reduced with the right DP settings.

And luckily, if that's not in vanilla, we can add it in with editable DP settings! Hooray.
 

Kurdistani

Hürriyet ve İtilaf Fırkası
80 Badges
Jan 1, 2004
1.049
13
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pride of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Lost Empire - Immortals
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Victoria 2
Veldmaarschalk said:
A more friendlier tone would be much more appreciated, calling people all kinds of names is against forum rules and in fact against rules of any civilized society.

And btw the Dutch national anthem (Het Wilhelmus) was written in the 16th century :)

To be fair the Dutch were one of the first 'nations' created in the modern world..
 

Kurdistani

Hürriyet ve İtilaf Fırkası
80 Badges
Jan 1, 2004
1.049
13
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pride of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Lost Empire - Immortals
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Victoria 2
Sute]{h said:
We aren't claim that people didn't have a collective identity prior to nationalism. What we are saying is that that collective identity revolved around another unit than the nation. You mention tribes as a possibility. Another could be family, crown, town or class. The broader term nation including every member of the political community didn't really appear in force before the liberal ideology appeared.

Using the Roman Empire as a case for gaelic nationalism is really streching it IMHO. After the Roman victory in Gaul most if not all of the conquered acceptered Roman rule after all. Actually the achievements of the Roman Empire to rule the known world is more like proof that nations really didn't matter. Sure there were resistance from time to time in the various regions, but not more than what premodern societies usually see.

Really I'm not arguing that no cultural identity exists, but rather that it is completely irrelevant for a countries ability to rule a given province within this timeframe. Religion on the other hand did matter quite a bit.


My word we have all been reading Bendict Anderson and Ernest Gellner.... :cool: