Hordes aren't easy. You'll get better with them in time. I horrifically failed my first few Timurids playthroughs.
- 1
Great Horde - How to?
- Thread starter Peregrinus
- Start date
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Well, no. It's like buying a brand new car, then finding out there are paid modifications you can get to make the car better.
- 3
Honestly, if Novgorod by some magical stroke of divine-guided luck actually managed to beat Muscovy and that's the most that came of it by 1578 then the problem is absolutely a lack of aggression. If they were beating each other up pretty good, it would've been easy as pie to come in and grab Moscow and clean up while Novogorod and Muscovy each still fought to survive. The AI will pretty much always go after Novgorod since they're weaker (rightly so) so you can just freely take what you want in that case.
Here's a 1.19 campaign that went decently well except for a buggy event that raised unrest in hundreds of my provinces by 10 for 30 years or something. Unreformed all game, pretty simple WC. Georgia and Persia are vassals.
FWIW, I took Aristocratic/Influence as first/second idea groups. They're necessary to get the ball rolling IMO.
- 1
don't take all of Genoa's provinces, you need them for institution spread.
don't take admin ideas first. you need the points for coring. maybe only if you invest in the first 2 admin ideas, or first religious idea. but humanism... meh
you should have removed Persia as rival so you d be able to ally the ottomans (if the malus for allied with a rival si more than the difference to ally them).
as soon as timurids imploded and you finished muscovy/kaza/crimea, you should have dumped nogai as ally and taken their land. alliances aren't meant to last forever. that s why "the human player should never be trusted"
after which you invade what s left of timmies, uzbek -> northern india -> build a powerbase, expand east until you're strong enough to take on the commonwealth.
don't take admin ideas first. you need the points for coring. maybe only if you invest in the first 2 admin ideas, or first religious idea. but humanism... meh
you should have removed Persia as rival so you d be able to ally the ottomans (if the malus for allied with a rival si more than the difference to ally them).
as soon as timurids imploded and you finished muscovy/kaza/crimea, you should have dumped nogai as ally and taken their land. alliances aren't meant to last forever. that s why "the human player should never be trusted"
after which you invade what s left of timmies, uzbek -> northern india -> build a powerbase, expand east until you're strong enough to take on the commonwealth.
Uneven research cripples your nation. Coring is not the only way to conquer land.
Should have taken an diplomatic idea group first then the administrative idea group and then an military. That you let admin points go so low is a big problem. Need to use vassalisation and annexation to take land so not all admin points is used for coring.
Early game should be spend coring as little as possible and instead taking vassals and getting to admin tech 10 so you can start to churning out ideas.
The great horde start with a 50% tech penalty. But that can be fixed in less then 5 years and before any tech is taken. Conquer Ryazan and force vassalite Circ and Gaz to get the gold and land with Feudalism present so its possible to remove the tech penalty by embracing Feudalism.
Then go after Moscovy, Nogai and Kazan. If you can also take Shirvan and Taberasten. Then Uzbek and Timmy.
Humanism/Influence are great groups for un-reformed hordes, to balance coring and annexion of vassals to expand as fast as possible.
Core your same culture/same religion lands (Tartaria is quite big) and use vassals for all the rest (Caucasus, Russia, Persia).
If you have neither Art of War, nor Common Sense, nor The Cossacks, a Horde game might be a bit dull, but you should still be able to expand.
Core your same culture/same religion lands (Tartaria is quite big) and use vassals for all the rest (Caucasus, Russia, Persia).
If you have neither Art of War, nor Common Sense, nor The Cossacks, a Horde game might be a bit dull, but you should still be able to expand.
I feel your pain. Without at lest 3 DLCs game is almost unplayable, because optimal gameplay was nerfed every patch and in order to play it optimally you have to by DLCs.
Right now most important DLC is Common sense, then Art of War and then Cossacks.
Common sense is absolutely crucial for institution spread because of development, but besides that one of the biggest parts of optimal gameplay is vassal feeding, and large scale vassal feeding was introduced with Art of War, then came Liberty desire, which became a problem after Common sense patch - no integration if LD is higher then 50%. Solution: buy Common sense and reduce LD with prestige.
Then we have Cossacks patch with again increased LD and nerf to autonomy reduction from governments types. Solution: buy Cossacks to grant province to subjects to reduce LD and with estates you can negate huge autonomy.
Now we have Rights of Man and 1.19 patch which again affected vassal feeding by nerfing LD reduction from grant province, so now you must buy RoM to reduce LD with pay off subject debts or develop in subjects.
Long story short, without Commons sense if you don't play in Europe you are doomed.
Right now most important DLC is Common sense, then Art of War and then Cossacks.
Common sense is absolutely crucial for institution spread because of development, but besides that one of the biggest parts of optimal gameplay is vassal feeding, and large scale vassal feeding was introduced with Art of War, then came Liberty desire, which became a problem after Common sense patch - no integration if LD is higher then 50%. Solution: buy Common sense and reduce LD with prestige.
Then we have Cossacks patch with again increased LD and nerf to autonomy reduction from governments types. Solution: buy Cossacks to grant province to subjects to reduce LD and with estates you can negate huge autonomy.
Now we have Rights of Man and 1.19 patch which again affected vassal feeding by nerfing LD reduction from grant province, so now you must buy RoM to reduce LD with pay off subject debts or develop in subjects.
Long story short, without Commons sense if you don't play in Europe you are doomed.
Last edited:
That sounds like a Tribal Succession Crisis gone bad, was that the case?
- 2
- 1
Why did you take Aristocratic? There is no purpose for that idea group unless you want to become a republic.
- 3
Yeah. I looked up the event files and remember the regency now. I can't remember how my horde unity got so low (maybe took a 'Child of the Reeds' event because he had great stats), but the Tribal Succession Crisis ruler modifier was never removed after defeating all the pretender rebels (as it looks like it should) so I had to wait out a 15-year regency with my queen consort. Had to kill probably near a million rebels in total. It also spawned pretender rebels in two or three provinces rather than the one that it's supposed to (I'm reading the wiki at work, so if it's different now in the events I can't confirm). I think it might've been wonky due to the queen consort system. Not sure.
Every idea in it is useful for GH:
+10% cavalry combat ability, -10% cavalry cost (especially with reinforcements costing income now)
+10% vassal income, +50% HCC (this one is kind of minor but amounted to around a extra 1.5 ducats/month for me at the beginning and the HCC deterred the Ottomans from attacking me while I expanded into Persia)
+25% manpower (obviously useful)
-1% army/naval tradition decay (essentially +1 AT/year since I had 80+ AT by the 16th century)
+1 diplomat (for annexing)
-20% WE cost (obvious)
-10% mil tech cost (obvious)
Capstone +1 leader without upkeep which can be beneficial ina not-so-obvious way when sieging/attacking on multiple fronts against large nations -- I had a war with the Commonwealth where their stacks couldn't compete because all of mine had a general and all of theirs didn't. Also can help with having multiple specialized generals. Not the best capstone since you have have 4 leaders through PP/Empire rank but it provided benefit at least equal to other applicable idea groups.
It also has good five-year pulse events since a lot of them involve nice benefits at the cost of nobility loyalty, but since you have no nobility estate you just get the benefit.
The only other idea group I'd consider taking as a first idea group would maybe be Quantity but just for the lowered costs and manpower increases since the rest of its ideas aren't very good (or really nearly useless -- FL capstone, mercs, etc.) for GH.
I know my opinion isn't the most orthodox one but quite frankly a lot of people just toe the line without ever thinking for themselves.
Last edited:
- 5
Nah don't worry, Aristocratic for Hordes is decent. It might not be "the best" first idea group, but it will still be helpful.
On top of the bonuses you listed, you also have the Eco/Aristo & Diplo/Aristo policies which add Horde Unity.
On top of the bonuses you listed, you also have the Eco/Aristo & Diplo/Aristo policies which add Horde Unity.
- 1
So, I played Hordes most of my time in EU4, and I am so used to it, that playing any other countries is hard for me now. So, to avoid that admin tech being behind you should almost everytime take admin ideas first, make government focus on admin and just value admin points more than anything, I mean in some events, choose admin gains or avoid admin costs. Secondly, when you have a western tech country near yours, having +150 relations gives you -10% tech costs, that will help, yes it's hard for Sunni to have good relations with western (let's say Genoa), but I was willing to pay some 25-50 ducats to get higher relations in moments of tech researches (especially admin tech). Also, you should westernize like before 1600~, because that's the middle of the game and the time when 175% tech cost is really showing up and you get behind faster and faster, also the more development you have, the faster Horde Unity is decaying, which may just destroy your country, so you want to get rid of that to the mid time of game. Playing Horde might be hard, but I love Hordes. The only thing I might complain is that all Hordes pretty much have no unique missions/decisions, unique reforms, etc.
... Because if the gameplay DLCs didn't make a large difference, why would you buy them?
- 2
If you think pure vanila EU4 is not enough or it somehow irritates you with the Paradox DLC system, come try MEIOU. The mod offers DLC-like content for free and you can play its full features without DLC. With the DLC only gives you a more fleshed out interface (such as the estates) Come and try and you'll know.
BTW, I used to play on ironman for achievements and I own all of the gameplay DLC but I started MEIOU and was amused with its depth and content. Never looked back. Not even achievements
Ok, so I started a new game (and it took about another 10 failed starts to be able to make it past the first 5 years or so based on who allied who). Here's how my game is currently progressing:
I managed to ally both Poland and the Ottomans, which they so far have not rivaled each other. I used Poland to win a war against Muscovy (but they kept beating me to occupying most Muscovite provinces).
How am I doing so far on the timetable?
I managed to ally both Poland and the Ottomans, which they so far have not rivaled each other. I used Poland to win a war against Muscovy (but they kept beating me to occupying most Muscovite provinces).
How am I doing so far on the timetable?
Looks good. Make the next war against Muscovy a crushing defeat for them and you'll have a great power base to move into QQ and the rich Persian lands (or even before Muscovy if the Ottomans or Mamluks declares war on QQ before the Muscovy truce timer is up -- wait for them to eliminate most of QQ's armies then move to Tabriz).
Check the provinces with Persian cores and take at least one in the QQ war so that you can release Persia in a controlled manner before the war with the Timurids -- this way you'll be able to keep the trade nodes to yourself rather than them going to Persia if you release them.
In the next war you should be able to accept Muscovite culture if you haven't annexed Ryazan by then.
One little thing that sticks out to me is that Ryazan has Moscow, but it might've been better to take other provinces for yourself and leave Ryazan small (they will gain very little from having it compared to you). Then in the next war, it'd be really easy to grab up Moscow and you'd already have Muscovite as an accepted culture.
Last edited:
Is Persia how people keep solvent in a Great Horde game?
'Cause last time I tried to make the Great Horde Golden Again, I was teetering on the edge of bankruptcy... I had pushed down towards Persia but hadn't actually eaten into it yet. Was way more focused on Muscovy - they managed to eat Lith and form Russia, which was a problem because my Ottoman ally was terribly slow about getting cores back and being my attack dog.
I also thought it might be because I hadn't managed to eat Moskva... I had Nogai, Kazan, parts of Uzbek, north Causcus, south Lithuania and Ryanzan/Odoyev. Also Vladmir. Couldn't make money to save my life, and the people I was WD were *not* rich enough to fund me. So, either I need to figure out how to pick a fight with Venice, or I'm missing some economic obviousness.
'Cause last time I tried to make the Great Horde Golden Again, I was teetering on the edge of bankruptcy... I had pushed down towards Persia but hadn't actually eaten into it yet. Was way more focused on Muscovy - they managed to eat Lith and form Russia, which was a problem because my Ottoman ally was terribly slow about getting cores back and being my attack dog.
I also thought it might be because I hadn't managed to eat Moskva... I had Nogai, Kazan, parts of Uzbek, north Causcus, south Lithuania and Ryanzan/Odoyev. Also Vladmir. Couldn't make money to save my life, and the people I was WD were *not* rich enough to fund me. So, either I need to figure out how to pick a fight with Venice, or I'm missing some economic obviousness.
Here's what I did -
put national focus on admin
day 1 (or as early as you can) declare war on Crimea and fully annex
improve relations and ally the Ottomans (you'll probably need the dip rep advisor)
ally Uzbek and anyone else who will
go to war with Nogai, Kazan or Muscovy and cripple/annex them using your allies. Don't be afraid to promise Uzbek land and give them none, you'll be killing them next.
With Muscovy the most important thing is to prevent them from colonising, I fought them by attacking one of the Russian minors, vassalising them and feeding Russia to them.
When you take land raze it all and core, get war reparations and as much money as you can before demanding land. You'll want admin ideas no later than the second slot.
Don't take the Genoan Crimea lands as you'll be using them to get institutions off (make sure your relations are good), once you form Golden Horde you get perma-claims there anyway.
Make a beeline for the provinces needed for the Golden Horde as you'll get permanent claims on a lot of land which means cheaper cores.
Once you own Russia and Central Asia you can probably take anyone on, just make sure the trust level and relations with Ottomans is high so they don't break the alliance.
put national focus on admin
day 1 (or as early as you can) declare war on Crimea and fully annex
improve relations and ally the Ottomans (you'll probably need the dip rep advisor)
ally Uzbek and anyone else who will
go to war with Nogai, Kazan or Muscovy and cripple/annex them using your allies. Don't be afraid to promise Uzbek land and give them none, you'll be killing them next.
With Muscovy the most important thing is to prevent them from colonising, I fought them by attacking one of the Russian minors, vassalising them and feeding Russia to them.
When you take land raze it all and core, get war reparations and as much money as you can before demanding land. You'll want admin ideas no later than the second slot.
Don't take the Genoan Crimea lands as you'll be using them to get institutions off (make sure your relations are good), once you form Golden Horde you get perma-claims there anyway.
Make a beeline for the provinces needed for the Golden Horde as you'll get permanent claims on a lot of land which means cheaper cores.
Once you own Russia and Central Asia you can probably take anyone on, just make sure the trust level and relations with Ottomans is high so they don't break the alliance.
How can you declare on Crimea before they get any ally? Everytime I launch a game, they get one or more allies before the end of the waiting period on declaring wars. Usually Nogai or Kazan, and sometimes even Qara Qoyonlu. Even if Uzbek joins, which isn't given, it's a tough war to win.
Also, it's quite difficult to take either Ryazan or Odoyev early, as either is likely to be allied with Novgorod or Muscowy and those will actually join in.
Also, it's quite difficult to take either Ryazan or Odoyev early, as either is likely to be allied with Novgorod or Muscowy and those will actually join in.
In my experience they don't get allies too often. I think in my game they allied Nogai and were called into war when Kazan-Timurids attacked so I just grabbed Crimea while all their troops were in Persia.
One or the other will usually either remain independent or ally Novgorod. It doesn't matter too much if you take Odoyev or Ryazan first since you can easily get easy access to Moscow either way.
The Persian trade node is very rich and their lands have super-valuable goods. Most of the trade power can remain local if you take the trade hubs (Tabriz, Shirvan, and Mazandaran).
FWIW, I hate allying the Ottomans because it feels like cheating.