Great Heathen Army

[Mr Repwoc]

I was just wondering if people generally felt if the success of the Great Heathen Army was more down to luck or skill of the Viking warriors. For example, the fact they only gained a foothold because of in-fighting between the Deirans and Bernicans. Also the magnitude of the impact of the Norse on Brythonic, Gaelic and Brythonic culture? I personally find it that the Anglo-Saxon invasion didn't introduce many new Germanic genes and therefore most Anglo Saxons were genetically British whereas the Viking conquests resulted in migrations of Scandinavians, changing the ethnicity of the natives considerably.

 

[The Super Pope]

I was just wondering if people generally felt if the success of the Great Heathen Army was more down to luck or skill of the Viking warriors. For example, the fact they only gained a foothold because of in-fighting between the Deirans and Bernicans. Also the magnitude of the impact of the Norse on Brythonic, Gaelic and Brythonic culture? I personally find it that the Anglo-Saxon invasion didn't introduce many new Germanic genes and therefore most Anglo Saxons were genetically British whereas the Viking conquests resulted in migrations of Scandinavians, changing the ethnicity of the natives considerably.

The good people have east Anglia have a lot germanic genetic indicators. This is almost certainly saxon. Plus the fact that we are writing to each other in the modern form of the saxons language.
The Anglo-Danes of Northern England largely did not survive the Norman conquest, and their political legacy was more short lived

 

[Mr Repwoc]

But a study of the English language shows that there are many Danish words that have replaced English ones (or example eggs). Also, the power structures were very much Danish. Harold fought with housecarls and his followers were Earls, both of which are Danish in origin.

 

[trybald]

I have heard a theory that the loss of declination in the English language is a result of Norse rather than Norman influence. There is some evidence to suggest that the loss of cases first appeared in the Northeast and then spread to other areas. This is consistent with Norse rather than Norman pattern of settlement.

 

[The Super Pope]

But a study of the English language shows that there are many Danish words that have replaced English ones (or example eggs). Also, the power structures were very much Danish. Harold fought with housecarls and his followers were Earls, both of which are Danish in origin.

But the Saxons were also North German and Danish, so I would not necessarily say that things like the existence of huscarls is inherently a result of the Danelaw. Again, with the Danish language, Old English was a closely related language. The example of eggs is not a particularly good one, as there were two words being used for egg in Chaucer's time, well after the end of Norse England

 

[Eusebio]

I have heard a theory that the loss of declination in the English language is a result of Norse rather than Norman influence.

IIRC that is correct. Declension was slowly disappearing from English centuries before the Norman conquest.

But the Saxons were also North German and Danish, so I would not necessarily say that things like the existence of huscarls is inherently a result of the Danelaw. Again, with the Danish language, Old English was a closely related language.

No. The Saxons were West German, far more closely related to Frisian than Danish.

 

[Mr Repwoc]

Another piece of evidence are placenames. Whereas in the North East many place names and geographical features have Norse names yet there are few placenames of Norman origin.

 

[StephenT]

I have heard a theory that the loss of declination in the English language is a result of Norse rather than Norman influence. There is some evidence to suggest that the loss of cases first appeared in the Northeast and then spread to other areas. This is consistent with Norse rather than Norman pattern of settlement.

As I understand it: Old English and Norman French were unrelated languages, so you were speaking in either one or the other. Old English and Norse, however, were close enough to be mutually intelligible even if neither person spoke the other's language - but only on a pidgin, "Me hungry. You sell food?" kind of level. Declensions and complex cases and irregular words were too complicated to get across, so the language was dramatically simplified. Eventually, I presume, those Anglo-Saxons who dropped the declensions when talking to their Norse neighbours decided it wasn't worth bothering with them between themselves either.

 

[Enravota]

No. The Saxons were West German, far more closely related to Frisian than Danish.

I'm not aware of a genetic barrier between the Frisian and Danish populations.

 

[Arilou]

As I understand it: Old English and Norman French were unrelated languages, so you were speaking in either one or the other. Old English and Norse, however, were close enough to be mutually intelligible even if neither person spoke the other's language - but only on a pidgin, "Me hungry. You sell food?" kind of level. Declensions and complex cases and irregular words were too complicated to get across, so the language was dramatically simplified. Eventually, I presume, those Anglo-Saxons who dropped the declensions when talking to their Norse neighbours decided it wasn't worth bothering with them between themselves either.

Not to mention the fact that the new norsemen who were learning anglo-saxon tended to simplify it (people learning a second language as adults often do this)

 

[unmerged(62524)]

I have heard a theory that the loss of declination in the English language is a result of Norse rather than Norman influence. There is some evidence to suggest that the loss of cases first appeared in the Northeast and then spread to other areas. This is consistent with Norse rather than Norman pattern of settlement.

That alone compensates for all of those Blood Eagles.

 

[Hibernian]

I'm not aware of a genetic barrier between the Frisian and Danish populations.

I think what is meant that in the very early Dark Ages (like 400 - 600 or so) the Danes lived in the eastern Islands (Sjælland, Fyn, Lolland, etc, I don't know the collective term for that archipelago) and in Southern Sweden, whereas the Frisians lived along (what is now) the western German and Dutch coast. The Angle, Saxon and Jutish tribes were living in-between the Danes and the Frisians.

The Anglo-Saxons and Frisians spoke a common set of languages (or dialects), which would have been very similar (see Ingvaeonic languages). Whereas the Danes coming out of Scandinavia spoke a different form of Germanic (Old Norse, North Germanic).

Here's a map: The Danes are not shown here, but would have been in the islands to the east of Jutland.

 

[Eusebio]

I'm not aware of a genetic barrier between the Frisian and Danish populations.

Frisian and Danish are languages.

 

[Enravota]

Frisian and Danish are languages.

Was there that deep a divide between Old Norse and Low Germanic dialects? Considering that they were still mutually intelligible after centuries of not sharing a border, I would imagine them to be very closely related.

 

[Eusebio]

Was there that deep a divide between Old Norse and Low Germanic dialects? Considering that they were still mutually intelligible after centuries of not sharing a border, I would imagine them to be very closely related.

Shrug, depends on what you mean by deep. The point being made was that English and Norse were not so closely related that it's impossible to tell which words were introduced into English by Danish settlement.

 

[Mr Repwoc]

Proto-Germanic splits into West (Frisian, Dutch, Low Saxon, Ænglisc etc), North (Norse) and East Germanic in about 100 BC. That means by 792 the languages have been separating for c892 years. Does this make them as unintelligible to each other as say very Early Middle English and Modern English (of which most English speakers probably couldn't understand) or say Modern Welsh and Breton which are still mutually intelligible (having known Welsh speakers on holiday in Brittany and conversing in their own native languages).

 

[Eusebio]

I thought Welsh and Breton were quite distinct now due to the influence of English and French respectively?

 

[Mr Repwoc]

I thought Welsh and Breton were quite distinct now due to the influence of English and French respectively?

Apparently not enough to not make them totally unintelligible. English influence on Welsh is primarily new vocabulary to enter the language that was already not pre existing (like siocled:chocolate). I'm not sure about Breton though. Possibly?

 

[Fornadan]

Trial by a jury of twelve is IIRC originally a Norse custom

I'm sure the Norse caused other lasting cultural changes as well

 

[Rabid Bogling]

Sure. Yorkshirefolk are mad for decomposing shark steeped in month old urine.