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Originally posted by Steph
I didn't say it was his best, but one of his best (after all, he fought with only 85000 men against 350000).
And it was an illustration of why I don't think his habilities should decrease at the end : they should stay the same. Nap won every battle at the beginning of his reign because other generals were not really brilliant. And he lose at the end because they were.
So instead of reducing Nap habilities, I'd rather see new leaders at the end of Napoleonic wars with high habilities.
Take Austerlitz for instance : Kutuzov fought of a trap. But the Tzar didn't. So Nap won because he was 6 6 6, and the Tzar 1 1 1. But at Boridono, where Kutuzov lead and was 5 5 5, it was more of a draw (just example of figures to illustrate my idea, I don't mean to really rate these leaders).

I agree with this completely. I saw absolutely no sign that Napoleon faded in ability, just that other leaders who could rival him rose. Kutuzov was obviously the best general the Russians had, but if I recall correctly not the highest ranking one...

I also agree that this is a non-issue. I'd guess that Napoleon will be a very good leader, particularly in maneuver, with good stats in shock and fire (probably a bit better in shock)

Wellington should probably be equivalent in fire, but much less in maneuver and shock. Blucher good in shock, as would be Murat. All of them should be easily modellable with the current system.

The French were also technologically/logistically/organizationally superior to most of their foes save perhaps the Brits.
 

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Thanx Steph. I'm sorry I didn't have my approved list of mispellings for EU2.:)

But are the Generals of France Superior, or is it the training or the organization of the army. Or is it because they were all still fit. One Austrian General being so fat he could not sit a horse and took the field in a carriage.
 

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I agree that Napolean should be very hard to defeat but I don't think he should lose powers until 1814 like in real life.I also like the idea that if Napolean starts winning wars and annexing countries then other countries should declare war on France at the same time.







-Justin
 

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To follow on Steph and Satan, was Arch Duke Charles much less than Nap. Could he have been better? He tried to reform the Army. But the Austrian army was still inflexable and the Generals so poor that even given brillant leadership the defeat of Nap was not posible.
 

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Originally posted by proudirishmick
I agree that Napolean should be very hard to defeat but I don't think he should lose powers until 1814 like in real life.I also like the idea that if Napolean starts winning wars and annexing countries then other countries should declare war on France at the same time.

-Justin

Napolean did not become less effective personnally. The Grand Armie of 180X can not be compiared to Armies of 1813, 1814 and even 1815. The officer Corp was in ruins, Generals that should have been comanding Brigades were comanding Corp. In 1813 and 14 the call ups were getting children. One General wrote you could smell the horse troops before you could see them, as the horses were so mistreated, by the poorly trianed troopers.
 

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Reducing Napoleon's abilities after 1813 (I think) was, as far as I know, introduced in EiA. This had been a game covering the Napoleonic period alone. I think that lowering the stats of Napoleon for a couple of years among the 400 game years is silly, for two reasons:

i. No matter how important Napoleon was, he was just a leader. Why not change with time the stats of all the commanders whose abilities fluctuated with time? Simply because it is practically impossible, and will create even more problems.

ii. The very point that Napoleon's abilities fluctuated with time is debatable, and there is no real need to get into details on that (I think).
 

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Originally posted by grallon
A thread about the greatest generals and no one mentioned Caesar !?!!!

Alesia, Alexandria, Pharsalos, Zama, Munda...

What makes a general great anyway ? The number of battles won or the way they were handled. Caesar was a propably the greatest tactician that ever lived. He could take what was a practical defeat and turn it into a victory (Munda is a good exemple - altough his bloodiest battle) because he knew instinctively how to use every opportunity available and how to adapt to changing circumstances as the battle was progressing. As opposed to Alexander, or Ghengis Khan who were using "unusual" tactics against their opponents, Caesar , during his most famous battles, was facing fellow romans under pretty good generals (Pompeius, Labienus) and he outsmarted them all.
G.

What about Sun Tzi? He was one of the best General in Chinese history? And its a known secret that the US Army conduct courses on him for their Generals. Never hear anything about courses conducted by US Army based on anyone mentioned in before the quoted thread.
 

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Originally posted by Cakravarti


Actually yes. I am talking about the 'tiger of Mysore'. I dont think that just because he lost mysore it means that he was a bad general. He was actually a pretty good general. He was also a very good statesman. In fact he actually was the first Indian ruler to take the diplomatic game to Europe itself. Previous rulers had dealed with the different company's when it came to diplomacy. They did not deal with directly with the governments of the European countries. Tipu however had led an expedition to Paris itself.

But good does not mean great-and he lost rather calamitously without making anywhere near the mark of someone like Napoleon who fell equally calamitously (at least for him.) As for his statesmanship and forays into the diplomatic field, it seems they merely further antagonised the British without providing him with the support he needed.

He died bravely-that's about all I'm willing to say about him.



As for any decline in Napoleon's abilities, it's clear that he still possessed them in his last years, but he was only able to exercise these talents erratically, whether due to illness or a more nebulous "fatigue" we'll never know-unfortunately.
 

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RE: I believe Fredrick is the greatest general of history

So Russian Emperor Peter III also thought like that... And me too. That's why I like Gen's scenario about Seven Years War... Prussia rules, you know!!!
 

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Originally posted by black_Hat
But are the Generals of France Superior, or is it the training or the organization of the army.

The French army won most of the first campaign not because the French were good fighters (although they were), but because they were formidable walkers.
The 1805 campaign against Russian and Austrian was one "easily" because Napoleon manage to bring all the French army from Boulogne to Ulm in a very short time, and beat Mack's Austrian army way before Russian reinforcement could arrive in Austria.
The French were also terrific in shock, but poor when it came to firing.

The most spectacular trait of the French Marshal was courage. Murat used to order a charge shouting "Messieurs en selle, direction mon cul" (Mister, on the saddle, toward my arse), and he charged along in front of the cavalry.
Unfortunately for the French, Napoleon dit not like to delegate, and tried to do everything himself, so they sometime like autonomy. Moreover, they were a bit jealous of each other, and in some case they "forget" to help each other, in Spain for instance.
 

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Originally posted by black_Hat
To follow on Steph and Satan, was Arch Duke Charles much less than Nap. Could he have been better? He tried to reform the Army. But the Austrian army was still inflexable and the Generals so poor that even given brillant leadership the defeat of Nap was not posible.

The Austrian army was quite good. Their artillery was nice, and in 1805 one of the most famous cavalry unit was the Belgian Dragoons of Latour, that the Austrian always send first. But the Austrian generals were definitely outclassed by French.
 

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austrian generals

It might be an idea to make Archduke Charles 555 most of the time and 111 on occasions as his generalship was often interupted by epiletic fits. He wasn't the only decent Austrian general Melas was a good general, Radeztky was around at this time too, and Alvinci was the first general to beat Napoleon, at first Caldiero.
 

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Originally posted by sunzoner


What about Sun Tzi? He was one of the best General in Chinese history? And its a known secret that the US Army conduct courses on him for their Generals. Never hear anything about courses conducted by US Army based on anyone mentioned in before the quoted thread.

We know too little about what Sun Tzi did as general, though simply looking at his book you could tell he was way before his time. Funny where this game ends, because it ends 10 or 20 years before the US starts producing great generals. Maybe that was one of the reason it was ended here, because the Mexican War actually marked the beginning of the US rise.
 

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Much ado about Napoleon

Having just read every post in this entire conversation I have an important observation: You are all thinking of EUII as game that will follow history exactly as it was written. The problem with this way of thinking is that you've missed the point of the game. Playing EU and EUII is about creating alternative histories! Every time you play the game it is supposed to be different. It is extremely difficult to recreate each situation as it occured historically. For example: Historically, in 1588 the English were fighting the Spanish (you may recall the Spanish Armada) and since playing EU despite having all of the generals at their disposal I have never seen two large fleets collide in the English Channel at this exact moment in time.

All of you have assumed that Napoleon will fight for France. No one has mentioned that Napoleon was from (what I believe is correct) Corsica. Historically, France had recently acquired the island and this is the reason why Napoleon fought for the French. Let us assume that you are playing a Grand Campaign as Genoa in EUII and you control Corsica in throughout the entire game. Shouldn't Napoleon rise to power in Genoa and not France? Yes, I know this would never happen I'm just trying to illustrate a point.

However, continuing with this thread's chain of thought... why not just have Napoleon as a monarch (emperor of France) and give a special bonus to French armies during his reign? It could work like the cavalry bonus in EU. What do you think???
 

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Re: Much ado about Napoleon

Originally posted by Lord Schomberg
All of you have assumed that Napoleon will fight for France. No one has mentioned that Napoleon was from (what I believe is correct) Corsica. Historically, France had recently acquired the island and this is the reason why Napoleon fought for the French. Let us assume that you are playing a Grand Campaign as Genoa in EUII and you control Corsica in throughout the entire game. Shouldn't Napoleon rise to power in Genoa and not France? Yes, I know this would never happen I'm just trying to illustrate a point.

Given the original EU's system-it's quite possible he would fight for both!:D

As for the bonus idea, it sounds a good one, but I wouldn't apply it to the French generally (unless it was altered to some form of "Republican Fervour" bonus, but that shouldn't extend as far as Napoleon's last years.) It would have to be tied to Napoleon himself, in my opinion, so once again we have an "uber-general".
 

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Re: Much ado about Napoleon

All of you have assumed that Napoleon will fight for France. No one has mentioned that Napoleon was from (what I believe is correct) Corsica. Historically, France had recently acquired the island and this is the reason why Napoleon fought for the French.

Yes, as a studend was wrote in an history essay : "France bought Corsica to Genoa 2 years before Napoelon was born, to be sure he will be French

However, continuing with this thread's chain of thought... why not just have Napoleon as a monarch (emperor of France) and give a special bonus to French armies during his reign? It could work like the cavalry bonus in EU. What do you think???

Because Napoleon was not only the emperor, he was himself at a lot of battles. Henry IV is also a general and a monarch.
 

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Maybe I wasn't clear enough on my last point. The "Napoleon Bonus" would last as long as he was emperor of France. This would keep Napoleon off the battlefield preventing some freak accident from taking him out early. The way the bonus would work would be similar to a situation like this one in EU: Louis XIV of France chooses Colbert as minister (various infastructure bonuses until Colbert dies). Just change this around so it's Napoleon as monarch/emperor and give him a military bonus. When he dies then the bonus dies with him. Thus he lived and died a "uber-general." This also takes into account his unique charismatic ability that helped to create nationalist fervor.

Instead of having his powers fade at the end of his reign have "War Exhaustion" actually mean something in EUII :D
 

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Re: Much ado about Napoleon

Originally posted by Lord Schomberg
Having just read every post in this entire conversation I have an important observation: You are all thinking of EUII as game that will follow history exactly as it was written. The problem with this way of thinking is that you've missed the point of the game. Playing EU and EUII is about creating alternative histories! Every time you play the game it is supposed to be different. It is extremely difficult to recreate each situation as it occured historically. For example: Historically, in 1588 the English were fighting the Spanish (you may recall the Spanish Armada) and since playing EU despite having all of the generals at their disposal I have never seen two large fleets collide in the English Channel at this exact moment in time.

All of you have assumed that Napoleon will fight for France. No one has mentioned that Napoleon was from (what I believe is correct) Corsica. Historically, France had recently acquired the island and this is the reason why Napoleon fought for the French. Let us assume that you are playing a Grand Campaign as Genoa in EUII and you control Corsica in throughout the entire game. Shouldn't Napoleon rise to power in Genoa and not France? Yes, I know this would never happen I'm just trying to illustrate a point.

However, continuing with this thread's chain of thought... why not just have Napoleon as a monarch (emperor of France) and give a special bonus to French armies during his reign? It could work like the cavalry bonus in EU. What do you think???

I agree. But you go to far when you say all of you. I'm one of the ones who said balance is best. We need history after all, that's what the game was originally supposed to be, and we need to have our own paths to find and follow which the first game also achieved.

Don't generalize. I hate it when people do that. History is important, fun is important. A balance is the best way, just like the force. Like yoda says.

Anyway, The circumstanes of the early 19th century are vastly important. The changes in Europe were big.

Also Napolean is in himself important, in part because of his code of laws that almost every constitution follows. Also his organizational skills are more than most leaders could manage. He worked 20 hours days, practically managed his empire single handidly with little help.

One of his main accomplishment was his organizational skills. Whatever nation he appears for should recieve bonuses of Morale, Stability, Industry, etc.

He shouldn't just be another invincible General.
 

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Stromprophet, what is your point?

One of his main accomplishment was his organizational skills. Whatever nation he appears for should recieve bonuses of Morale, Stability, Industry, etc.

I disagree with you here for the most part. Have you ever heard of a great general with poor organizational skills? Didn't think so. Napoleon was not always the most popular person in France. He starts with poor stability and chaos throughout the realm, temporarily fixes it, and then leaves a void that his to this day never been adequitely filled. I wonder how high the morale was when he was getting his butt kicked by a harsh Russian winter? And what exactly did he himself do for "industry"? Try not to buy into the myth of Napoleon. You yourself could use some balance in your approach to Napoleon.

Don't generalize. I hate it when people do that.

Sorry oh omnipotent one! Let us all bow down to you knower of all things!

PS - You yourself generalize constantly. :eek:
 

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>The French army won most of the first campaign not because the French were good fighters (although they were), but because they were formidable walkers.

Napoleon also said that the French were greater than men in victory and less than women in defeat...

Roger