Grand Culture Mod (Thread 2: Continuation of Finellach's)

[Veldmaarschalk]

Maybe time for a new discussion.

I am currently reading a new book called 'the Normans in Sicily' by John Julius Norwich.

According to this book, the Lombards (Longobards) in southern Italy were still very distinctive form the italian population, mostly in Apulia, Capua, Benevento and Salerno. f.e. Gisulf of Salerno and his sister the wife of Robert Guiscard de Hauteville, are all described as Lombards, also pope Gregory VII was of Lombard stock (before he became pope he was known as Hildeprand or Hildebrand).

Also all the rulers before the normans were all Lombards. (called Pandulf and Gaimar etc.)

Robert Guiscard married Sichelgaita to gain prestige and influence with the local Lombard nobility.

 

[Calgacus]

Lombard becomes a generic name for northern Italians in the CK period. The Kingdom of Pavia (=Kingdom of Italy) was also known as the Kingdom of the Lombards. In that way, Lombard was to the romance cultures of northern Italy what Frank was to the Romance cultures of northern France.

I wanna upload new maps. However, I'm not sure if everyone agrees about the Islamic cultures of the western Meditteranean. Are they staying as they are, getting merged as Moorish, or getting more enveloped by Berber? My preference is to have the whole area Moorish, but most people managed to avoid taking a preference on the issue.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Mine is to go with berber except for a few key areas where there were historically high amount of arabs (offhand i know cordoba and toledo would be so except in 1337) and in 1337 all of iberia that is muslim to be berber.

The problem is moorish is that its too fluid as to who or what is a moor. You can see what i mean at Wikipedia Moorish Discussion

 

[Calgacus]

Mine is to go with berber except for a few key areas where there were historically high amount of arabs (offhand i know cordoba and toledo would be so except in 1337) and in 1337 all of iberia that is muslim to be berber.

The problem is moorish is that its too fluid as to who or what is a moor. You can see what i mean at Wikipedia Moorish Discussion

Yeah. 'Though lots of that page is trash.

The main problem is that while core Latin Europeans distinguish between Moor and Saracen (one they fight in Spain, the other in the Holy Land), Iberians come to use the word for all moslems.

So yeah, Moor is problematic; but so is Berber. Since it can be a cultural term, and a linguistic term; and the Berbers of Spain are always identified with Arabic speech among Christians.

The other problem is that Berber just feels unhistorical as the dominant culture of Al-Andalus. Moorish feels more historical.

But if people don't like Moor, I'll just go with some version of your Berber envelopment idea (limiting Arabic to two provinces seems extreme).

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Yeah. 'Though lots of that page is trash.

The main problem is that while core Latin Europeans distinguish between Moor and Saracen (one they fight in Spain, the other in the Holy Land), Iberians come to use the word for all moslems.

So yeah, Moor is problematic; but so is Berber. Since it can be a cultural term, and a linguistic term; and the Berbers of Spain are always identified with Arabic speech among Christians.

The other problem is that Berber just feels unhistorical as the dominant culture of Al-Andalus. Moorish feels more historical.

But if people don't like Moor, I'll just go with some version of your Berber envelopment idea (limiting Arabic to two provinces seems extreme).

Moor might feel better in al-andalus, but what about in France or Egypt where it could easily spread given the new stock culture speading event in the betas?

And again, i'm not surprised you find no documentation from berbers as even today the berber language is spoken language only and like in most industrialized nations today as English is the language of dominace so arabic was and still is in the arabic world and their documentation reflects it, especially when your own language doesn't have its own alphabet. Their language is not the first nor only language in about this time to have no alphabet or system of writing attached to it.

However if utlimately your fine with the posibility of moorish france or moorish arabia, then go ahead and use moors.

 

[Calgacus]

Moor might feel better in al-andalus, but what about in France or Egypt where it could easily spread given the new stock culture speading event in the betas?

However if utlimately your fine with the posibility of moorish france or moorish arabia, then go ahead and use moors.

I don't get you here, I'm afraid. What difference would this make of Berber and Moor?

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Lombard becomes a generic name for northern Italians in the CK period. The Kingdom of Pavia (=Kingdom of Italy) was also known as the Kingdom of the Lombards. In that way, Lombard was to the romance cultures of northern Italy what Frank was to the Romance cultures of northern France.
.

I am not talking about the Lombards in northen Italy, I am talking about the Lombards in southern italy. The kingdom of Pavia was overrun by Charlemagne, but the princepalities in southern Italy, Spoleto and Beneventum being the most important at the start were not overrun and stayed independent.

The book makes a clear distinction between lombards, italians, greeks, saracens and normans who all live in southern Italy.

 

[Calgacus]

I am not talking about the Lombards in northen Italy, I am talking about the Lombards in southern italy. The kingdom of Pavia was overrun by Charlemagne, but the princepalities in southern Italy, Spoleto and Beneventum being the most important at the start were not overrun and stayed independent.

The book makes a clear distinction between lombards, italians, greeks, saracens and normans who all live in southern Italy.

I presume John Julius Norwich just means to refer to the aristocrat descent of these lords. The Kingdom of the Lombards (e.g. Pavia) was "overrun" by Charlemagne, but remained in existence. These Lombards of southern Italy are just descendents of the original Lombard warlords (as these principalities were originally Lombard); in general the word is just used to distinguish a Latin of Italy from one of France. It's no big deal.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

I presume John Julius Norwich just means to refer to the aristocrat decent of these lords. The Kingdom of the Lombards (e.g. Pavia) was "overrun" by Charlemagne, but remained in existence. These Lombards of southern Italy are just descendents of the original Lombard warlords (as these principalities were originally Lombard); in general the word is just used to distinguish a Latin of Italy from one of France. It's no big deal.

Talking about the population of the Apulian towns he says the following.

The population needed carefull handling by the Catapan (the local Byzantine governor) who was compelled to allow a considerable degree of freedom. Thus the Lombard system of government was largely retained, Lombard judges and officials administered Lombard law.

Such generous measure of autonomy was unparalled anywhere else in the Byzantine empire, yet the Lombards of Apulia were never content to live under Greek rule. They always had maintained a strong sense of nationality, after 500 years they were still quite unassimilated into the italian population. And this nationalist flame was ever being fanned by the great princepalities to the north and west (Beneventum, Capua, Salerno).

So in this books Lombard is not used to describe latin speaking Italians, those are referred to as Italians. But is used to describe a population with it own laws and rules and naming patterns. Names like Pandulf, Atenulf, Gaimar, Hildeprand and Gisulf and so on.

The only problem is that are not that many sources about it on the internet. I haven't found one yet.

So, it is not a big deal if you not put them in. When I have found some more information I will come back and try to convince you again

 

[Calgacus]

Talking about the population of the Apulian towns he says the following.



So in this books Lombard is not used to describe latin speaking Italians, those are referred to as Italians. But is used to describe a population with it own laws and rules and naming patterns. Names like Pandulf, Atenulf, Gaimar, Hildeprand and Gisulf and so on.

The only problem is that are not that many sources about it on the internet. I haven't found one yet.

So, it is not a big deal if you not put them in. When I have found some more information I will come back and try to convince you again

I guess I never did investigate when exactly the Lombards gave up their Germanic language for Latin. I'll see if any of my books say anything on the matter. I wouldn't use names as any guide, latins everywhere (Spain, France, Italy) abandon Latinate names for Germanic ones (e.g. Louis, William, Roderick, etc). I'd need more and better sources than Norwich to believe the Lombard-Italian distinction is one of actual language in the CK period, and not one invented by modern historians.

It'd be helpful if you outlined the context in which Norwich is discussing this. I mean, how late are we talking about here?

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Early 11th century, shortly before the 1018 uprising of the Lombards against the Byzantines which brought the Normans to that area.

EDIT
I have to admit that he doesn't speak of the Lombard language.

 

[Calgacus]

Yes, OK. I think then it's just a reference to the aristocratic culture of these Lombard-descended dukes and counts.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Well I was hoping for some more discussion on this subject. A discussion between 2 persons isn't really that much fun.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

I don't get you here, I'm afraid. What difference would this make of Berber and Moor?

Well berber is a very eefined culture by either generic, ethic or linguistic type, whatever you want but pretty stable from era to era. Moorish is much more general term, that even in this era is quite fluid, mostly because its still being formed. However, figuring out which provinces are berber and which are arab in al-Andalus is quite difficult, unless i can get a detailed map or chart, so it would be easier to make them all moorish for that reason. Thus without that knowledge, neither one is the best solution because Moorish Egypt doesn't sound exactly right, plus Moorish culture, if you want to call it that, was mostly tied to religion as much as skin-color, in some ways even more to religion.

So bottom line is there is no right answer given the lack of data on the location of berber and arab cultures in Al-Andalus.

 

[Calgacus]

Well berber is a very eefined culture by either generic, ethic or linguistic type, whatever you want but pretty stable from era to era. Moorish is much more general term, that even in this era is quite fluid, mostly because its still being formed. However, figuring out which provinces are berber and which are arab in al-Andalus is quite difficult, unless i can get a detailed map or chart, so it would be easier to make them all moorish for that reason. Thus without that knowledge, neither one is the best solution because Moorish Egypt doesn't sound exactly right, plus Moorish culture, if you want to call it that, was mostly tied to religion as much as skin-color, in some ways even more to religion.

So bottom line is there is no right answer given the lack of data on the location of berber and arab cultures in Al-Andalus.

Erm ... the Moors weren't defined by skin color, although many Almoravid armies did contain large numbers of "Ethiopians" (i.e. Blacks brought from south of the Sahara), as well as Moors.

A Moorish Egypt sounds no worse than the Hungarian Egypt which I encountered in one game.

But there are a few possibilities.

1) Easiest: Merge west med arabs and berbers into "Moorish."
2) Do not merge then. Scrap either Kurdish or Coptic/Nubia, replacing it with a "Moorish" culture for Al-Andalus.
3) Berber envelopment of all but a few places

 

[Calgacus]

Well I was hoping for some more discussion on this subject. A discussion between 2 persons isn't really that much fun.

Well, if the rest think there's anything to it, you can be sure you'll hear about it.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

1 or 3.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

About the moorish

I say, option 1.

 

[Calgacus]

OK, I've followed option one. The new maps are up. I apologize if I've forgotten any suggestions. It's been a while, I went through the thread, but I still could have missed something. Well, whinge away!

The modified maps are now on post #1 of the thread, to alleviate any confusion.

I can put the new files up soon too; I just have do the annoying job of diversifying the southern slavs in the character files and such like.

 

[Calgacus]

OK, new files out: updated to latest beta patch

http://upl.silentwhisper.net/uplfolders/upload3/GrandCultureMod_Beta_Sept07.zip