Grand Culture Mod (Thread 2: Continuation of Finellach's)

[Earl Uhtred]

Thanks Calgacus

Where did you get Dol as the start of Breton-tachd from? (The name Dol certainly sounds Breton I grant you.) Rennes itself was never a Breton-speaking community, I'm sure of that.

Are you planning to get 'Great Invasions' btw? I couldn't resist, though its division of Britain is hideous.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

In 1066, Dol was the start of Breton speaking lands. That makes it unlikely that Rennes province should be French/Norman in 1066. Dunno about Nantes province yet.

Well take a look at this map.

http://elec.enc.sorbonne.fr/document188.html#tocto1

 

[Calgacus]

Thanks Calgacus

Where did you get Dol as the start of Breton-tachd from? (The name Dol certainly sounds Breton I grant you.) Rennes itself was never a Breton-speaking community, I'm sure of that.

Are you planning to get 'Great Invasions' btw? I couldn't resist, though its division of Britain is hideous.

Breton-tachd :rofl:

I just remember vaguely from readings I did a few months ago, it might have been Henry of Huntingdon. I will try and get back.

Do you mean, BTW, Rennes the town, or the CK province?

 

[Calgacus]

Well take a look at this map.

http://elec.enc.sorbonne.fr/document188.html#tocto1

Do we have reason to believe Breton contracted behind the placename border before 1066?

It certainly rules out Nantes province for any scenario; the only matter would be Rennes province in 1066.

Otherwise, it's Rennes and Nantes province to Romance in 1187 and 1337.

 

[Zebedee]

meh! Either create new tags for Gallo, Angevin etc or reflect cultural differences.

Gallo was one of the two languages used by the court of the Dukes. Gallo is a oil language, and therefore a romance language. But it does not comfortably fit in with the 'Frankish' culture or variants of language - it is a distinct language. cf http://www.bertaeyn-galeizz.com/cadre1.htm

Gallo is a cross-over point. And while you could fit it in with the Franks if you were truly desperate, then you'd also have to change the culture of the Dukes of Brittany because otherwise they'd be a totally different culture from their people; which is definitely not true

Contemporary writers (eg Chronique de St.Denis from C13th refers to the inhabitants of Britanny being those who spoke the ancient language and those who spoke that language mixed with Latin; which isn't true re.origins of Gallo - but does imply that Gallo was not considered to be 'French') referred to a 'double Brittany' - a Brittany of two languages but united; much as Scotland was Pictish, Scottish and Welsh but 'united' under one crown. With France though, I don't think there are enough tags to represent the regional languages (which are in no way 'patois' as research into them is showing).

re. Devon. Earl seems to rely mainly on place names for most of his reading of Devon's linguistic status - this is at best flawed when 'cott' and 'worthy' (common in North Devon) could either come from Anglo-Saxon 'cot' and 'worthig' or Celtic 'coet' and 'wartha'. 64 placenames in Devon retain the celtic 'cwm' in Domesday, as opposed to a handful in each of the other counties in England (exceptions being Somerset with 30 something and Dorset with around 20). Eventually, there will be a revision of how we view the west-country Celts because the evidence on the ground (eg styles of farming matching Celtic norms not Anglo-Saxon) is starting to be matched with the linguistic evidence of people who know Celtic as well as Anglo-Saxon (eg local pronunciation of names matching more closely a Celtic origin for a place name than an Anglo-Saxon one), but it is contentious at the moment. I'm quite happy to mod this in myself; this project keeps being derailed by petty things, and my evidence on Celtic is likely to be viewed as biased

 

[gigau]

Tags:

Tags:

Italian

CULTURE_NORMAN;Norman
CULTURE_ITALIAN;Italian
CULTURE_LATIN;Occitan

This is a quote from one of the first post of the thread. I have read through the thread quickely, but didn't see anything. I have difficulties with this statement... I don't belive Norman should be italian. I mean, Norman culture, AKAIK, comes from the mixing of Vikings with local populations.

As for Occitan, it's a bit harder to say. But, in southern France, it is considered as a twin culture to Catalan....

 

[Riddermark]

can i interrupt quickly here and ask what the hell happened to the Romans? Of the west roman empire?

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Gigau, the Italian above them means that they use Italian army sprite. Not that they are merged with Italians or anything. Also which tag uses which army sprite is not moddable.

Riddermark, try either History forum, Wikipedia or Googling.

 

[gigau]

Gigau, the Italian above them means that they use Italian army sprite. Not that they are merged with Italians or anything. Also which tag uses which army sprite is not moddable.

Riddermark, try either History forum, Wikipedia or Googling.

Oh, ok... sorry

 

[Third Angel]

Gigau, the Italian above them means that they use Italian army sprite. Not that they are merged with Italians or anything. Also which tag uses which army sprite is not moddable.

Not that it matters so much but there are (at lest) two mistakes in the list on second post of this thread:
_ Normans look like French and English, not Italian and Occitan
_ Persians look like Turks, not Arabs.

 

[Riddermark]

And germans look like nazis but thats another point

Riddermark, try either History forum, Wikipedia or Googling.

Im asking what happend to them in CK ?

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Im asking what happend to them in CK ?

My "subtle" hint was to point out that there are far too many discussions in this thread that seem to have only tangential relevance to Culture Modfications. And that's bad, since if this thread turns into off-topic spamground, the spam-feelers of Moderators start tingling.

Romans are pretty much off-topic for CK era culture modifications, as Roman wasn't a term to be used from any CK era people. Except perhaps Byzantines occasionally or possibly Italians. And what exactly happened to western Roman Empire could give us a nice multi-page discussion, that has about nil relevance to the thread's topic.

 

[Riddermark]

"Except perhaps Byzantines occasionally"

afaik they adressed themselves as romans thus my point i was considering to bring up - if greek culture is the appropriate name here - maybe romans would be much more suitable?

 

[unmerged(21937)]

afaik they adressed themselves as romans thus my point i was considering to bring up - if greek culture is the appropriate name here - maybe romans would be much more suitable?

Ah, you should rather approach the point daringly and openly, instead of subtly sneaking about and giving hints.

I think Greek is better, just like I think Byzantium is better than Romania. Better understandability and recognizability. But Calgacus is the mod author, so he'll always make last call in this.

 

[Riddermark]

I absolutely agree that it should be Byzantium or Byzantia even as in Kinghts of Honor though historically i doubt its credibility. Im curious to see what the others thing about it.HOWEVER a very fresh history book that came out here with latest research of a very acclaimed bulgarian historian now says that it murch rather be called Roman Empire than anything esle.

I cant agree with you on the greek culture though, these people saw themselves as part of something bigger and descendents of and successors of the Roman empire.

I might as well dig into the matter later and bring up some historical material if my point is true of course.

EDIT:
To add a little evidence here - enough for me actually - When bulgarian kings won devastating victories over the romans they titled themselves "Tzar na bulgari i romei" = king of bulgarians and romans. Thus its obvious what they were called.

 

[Riddermark]

To support my claims: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire

The Byzantine Empire is the term conventionally used to describe the Greek-speaking Roman Empire during the Middle Ages, centred at its capital in Constantinople. In certain specific contexts, usually referring to the time before the fall of the Western Roman Empire, it is also often referred to as the Eastern Roman Empire.

The name Byzantine Empire is a modern term and would have been alien to its contemporaries. The Empire's native Greek name was Ῥωμανία Romanía or Βασιλεία Ῥωμαίων Basileía Romaíon, a direct translation of the Latin name of the Roman Empire, Imperium Romanorum. The term Byzantine Empire was invented in 1557, about a century after the fall of Constantinople by German historian Hieronymus Wolf

Hieronymus himself was influenced by the rift caused by the 9th century dispute between Romans (Byzantines as we render them today) and Franks, who, under Charlemagne's newly formed empire, and in concert with the Pope, attempted to legitimize their conquests by claiming inheritance of Roman rights in Italy thereby renouncing their eastern neighbours as true Romans.

Byzantines identified themselves as Romaioi (Ρωμαίοι - Romans) which had already become a synonym for a Hellene (Έλλην - Greek), and more than ever before were developing a national consciousness, as residents of Ρωμανία (Romania, as the Byzantine state and its world were called).

The official dissolution of the Byzantine state in the 15th century did not immediately undo Byzantine society. During the Ottoman occupation Greeks continued to identify themselves as both Ρωμαίοι (Romans) and Έλληνες (Hellenes), a trait that survived into the early 20th century and still persists today in modern Greece, albeit the former has now retreated to a secondary folkish name rather than a national synonym as in the past.

 

[Calgacus]

To support my claims: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire

You are correct Riddermark. And before the 4th Crusade, it would be accurate to say that the term Έλληνες meant ""pagan." In modern Turkish, Anatolian Greeks are still called Rum.

I don't know if all that matters though. Latins called them Greeks, and so do we. I'm not fussed either way. If there's a consensus for it I'll change it.

 

[Riddermark]

As it been said they were called greeks because the westerners saw themselves as the true roman emperors id go with suggesting - Romaioi or Romans as culturul name but we have to yet see what the others have to say about it.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Well considering CK is based more on perception of chrisitans, mostly of catholic perception when it conflicts with orthodox, greek should be used. Its not the only place where we aren't using what is the most accurate to what historically people in the local region would have liked.

 

[Riddermark]

Yeah i understand that.

I guess its just me who wants to be able to use CK as kind of historical reference at least in the starting "snapshots" of time.

)