Grand Culture Mod (Thread 2: Continuation of Finellach's)

[yourworstnightm]

Combine all italic cultures, if the other latin cultures around Italy is in the italian tag, so could sard be. Give us a free tag to use for something else. agree on carinthian, they should be carinthian/ slovene since the south slavic culture is split up. They should not be german or italian or anything else. And if we ditch all small cultures because they're small, we'd have to ditch basque, which is toally wrong, but sard is a latin culture around Italy, and could fit in the italian tag (would love to see italian culture ditched and have a lot of small cultures, but we don't have unlimited tags)

Otherwise this mod is starting to look good already!

 

[Calgacus]

Owing to the amnesia and wilful ignorance of otherwise intelligent and generally well-informed posters, I shall repost this ethnologue classification of Romance languages:

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=90058

Linguistic considerations are combined with historical cultural considerations; the distinctive culture and lifestyle of the Sards, and the fact that comtemporary writers call them barbarus would in any case, for me at least, be argument enough. Of course, these arguments have already been done; it's a little annoying I have to repeat them, but I suppose the threads are so large that we can't really expect new people to read it all. Probably I shall have to go through the whole thing again in a month's time, which will probably be a welcome break for Finellach, who'll probaly again have to convince some more newcomers that the Croats and Serbs really do need seperate tags.

Province number, as I've admitted, is a good argument for scrapping the Sards and the Carinthians. But as I see things currently, none of the potential replacements can make a better case.

EDIT: I see Semi-Lobster at least has a memory.

 

[Quift]

Italy

Well,
Regarding Sards and so forth, wouldn't the game benefit more from a souther/northern italian division? Since it also reflects a political/technological/economical division. It would then also have a better pattern on techspread, allow for a norman element to be implemented in the south (avoiding _every_ D'hauteville being named Giacometti).

I think the overall effects on gameplay/historicity would be desirable.

Or venetian culture. Quite separate from italian. And rulers therefrom would actually have that culture. Making it meaningfull.

Are there any intresting phonymes or like to separate along a souther/northern line?

Who does agree on this division?

What about merging catalan and occitan?

Other solution on the corsican, sards, guanche issue. Barbarous islandpeoples could be none culture. Would be quite historical...

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Well,
Regarding Sards and so forth, wouldn't the game benefit more from a souther/northern italian division? Since it also reflects a political/technological/economical division. It would then also have a better pattern on techspread, allow for a norman element to be implemented in the south (avoiding _every_ D'hauteville being named Giacometti).p

The whole north/south division was miniscule during this era, the whol reason there WAS a north/south difference in Italy was the asimiliation of Greek and Arabic peoples, and during this time the Greeks where still Greeks and the Arabs where still Arabs.

Or venetian culture. Quite separate from italian. And rulers therefrom would actually have that culture. Making it meaningfull.

I can't really see Venetian culture extended past Venice itself, Treviso and Aquileia where still mostly Friulian.

What about merging catalan and occitan?

I have to give this a gigantic NO

Other solution on the corsican, sards, guanche issue. Barbarous islandpeoples could be none culture. Would be quite historical...

Corsicans and Sards where HARDLY a 'barbarous' people, they where as civilised as any other peoples of the Mediterranean, and more so then some half pagan noremen or feuding Rus prince, politically Corsica was pretty much a pawn between and Genoa and Pisa and Sardinia was run by four powerful 'Giudicati', leftovers from the Byzantine pullout of the island and where also influenced by the Italian merchant republics, because of this they where on par with the Italian city states, arguably one of the most advanced peoples in Christendom.

 

[yourworstnightm]

As I understan the italian influence over Sardinia and Corsica was quite big, sure they spoke an own language (like rhaetians, friulians, venetians, istrians, dalmatians etc.) but having sard separate, while not having dalmatian or friulian separate is wrong, therefor I am for a merging of italian and sard culture. (Italian shoul be renamed italic )

And stop bitching about the carinthian culture, they were neither a germanic nor a latin people, so having them italian or german would be wrong. Having them croatians would also be wrong since the kingdom of Croatia did not have influence on most of the carinthian are. Carinthian culture should be in.

About merging catalan and occitan, I thin it's unnecessary, but since they were closely related I guess it wouldn't be that wrong.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

That really just reveals your ignorance and culturally skewed viewpoint. There's nowhere to put the Sards; the only Italian thing about them is that they are in modern Italy. Do you have amnesia or something?

Thank you for your compliments...you are way too kind....
Sards and other Italians speak Latin based languages. Sardinian nobility was Italian(Tuscan) thus they fill in every aspect of being Italian. Even today they consider themselves Italian although they still speak their "dialect".

Yes we do. You're right about the comparison being ridicluous, Carinthians should go way before Sards. :rofl:

Go where? As I said at least you can merge the Sards with Italian and it won't appear ridiculous, you can't put Slovenes anywhere and yet not make it appear as pure stupidity.

And you're bringing up Serb-Croats issue only because you lack arguments...again. I find that rather smallminded and unfair at least. I've already proved that there was difference and that it was quite big. Now if it is so hard for you to look beyond the communist propaganda then by all means scrap them...

 

[Calgacus]

As I understan the italian influence over Sardinia and Corsica was quite big, sure they spoke an own language (like rhaetians, friulians, venetians, istrians, dalmatians etc.) but having sard separate, while not having dalmatian or friulian separate is wrong, therefor I am for a merging of italian and sard culture. (Italian shoul be renamed italic )

And stop bitching about the carinthian culture, they were neither a germanic nor a latin people, so having them italian or german would be wrong. Having them croatians would also be wrong since the kingdom of Croatia did not have influence on most of the carinthian are. Carinthian culture should be in.

Much as we'd love to take such orders from you, I don't think we'll do it on this occassion. :rofl:

You're still waffling ignorance of the fact that the Sards were neither Italian nor Italic (unlike the other people you've mentioned), and "merging" them with Italian (which amounts to pretending they didn't exist) makes less sense than merging the Carinthians with other southern slavs.

And no-one ever said that the Carinthians were Latin or Germanic You seem to be another one of those people who assume that no thought had ever went into this mod until you turned your own lofty mind to it. :wacko:

 

[Calgacus]

Thank you for your compliments...you are way too kind....
Sards and other Italians speak Latin based languages. Sardinian nobility was Italian(Tuscan) thus they fill in every aspect of being Italian. Even today they consider themselves Italian although they still speak their "dialect".

Yes, Vlachs speak Latin languages too, what's your point?

And modern state-induced national identities are irrelevant to medieval history, as your own Yugoslav experience ought to have taught you.

Go where? As I said at least you can merge the Sards with Italian and it won't appear ridiculous, you can't put Slovenes anywhere and yet not make it appear as pure stupidity.

Strong language Finellach, an argumentative device you seem very fond of, ain't gonna clothe the facts. Sardinian is not an Italian language. You may have ignored this in your own mind, but it remains a fact, and ignoring it is actually stupidity.

T

And you're bringing up Serb-Croats issue only because you lack arguments...again. I find that rather smallminded and unfair at least. I've already proved that there was difference and that it was quite big. Now if it is so hard for you to look beyond the communist propaganda then by all means scrap them...

LOL ... what are you talking about?

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Please tone down those personal attacks.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Wow! This is getting rather nasty! You guys better tone it down or this thread might get closed.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

Yes, Vlachs speak Latin languages too, what's your point?

Vlachs speak latin based language not latin language. Vlach languages are filled with Greek and especially Slavic words.

And modern state-induced national identities are irrelevant to medieval history, as your own Yugoslav experience ought to have taught you.

Exactly.

Strong language Finellach, an argumentative device you seem very fond of, ain't gonna clothe the facts. Sardinian is not an Italian language. You may have ignored this in your own mind, but it remains a fact, and ignoring it is actually stupidity.

No one said that it is Italian....you seem to read only what you want to read. Sardinian is not Italian but it is latin language and is very much infuenced by Italian and it's nobility was Italian. What more do you want....

LOL ... what are you talking about?

I am talking about you bringing up the same thing every time you lack valid arguments.

 

[Calgacus]

Vlachs speak latin based language not latin language. Vlach languages are filled with Greek and especially Slavic words.
.

There's little difference Finellach, word intake differs from language to language only by degree. Besides, Vlach is only the most extreme example.

With Sard, word intake comes from more exotic languages than most other Romance languages. Moreover, Sard is the only Romance language that takes its definite article not from ille but from ipsus (e.g. Sardinian so, sa = the). Sardinian and Corsican are the only members of the third group of a three-fold division of Romance languages. Linguistically it makes more sense to group French with Italian and Spanish than medieval Sard with Italian.

No one said that it is Italian....y

Yes they did. Read the thread.

Originally Posted by Mad King James

Uh I think you'd best just keep Italians all one culture, that's a can of worms right there. If you're introducing Sard then what about Venetian, Neapolitan, etc?

Originally Posted by Finellach

Indeed. Venetian, Rhaetian-Friulian, Istriot, Dalmatian, Napolitan, Tuscan, Umbrian, Lombardian etc, etc, etc, etc......

want more? :rofl:

I am talking about you bringing up the same thing every time you lack valid arguments.

Really? Well I'm glad you revealed that part of your mindset so openly. Of course, the page is full of valid arguments; you just choose to ignore them.

 

[Calgacus]

Wow! This is getting rather nasty! You guys better tone it down or this thread might get closed.

Yeah, and to no good either. :wacko: I knew when I woke up the morning I'd have to repeat all this stuff, go over all this old ground, leading to same conclusion.

Well, moving on, here's a waiting list, in no particular order:

* Aragonese
* Gall-Gaidheil
* German +1 (=3)
* Guanche
* Italian +1 (=2)
* Lappish
* Moravians/Slovaks
* Rhaetian
* Scandinavian +1 (=2)
* Scandinavian +2 (=3)
* Turkic +1 (=3)

I want to put this in order. So perhaps the regular posters would like to come up with their own prioritized waiting lists.

This is in case more tags emerge through future patches, or in case any tags get freed up by any mergers. At the moment, the Normans are the least worthy of a tag, then because of province size the Carinthians, Sards, and Albanians (in that order); none of the latter are likely to be scrapped while I'm here, because none of the cultures on the waiting list seem to me worthier of a place. That of course can change in the event of new arguments (and not old rantings).

Anyways, I'm also thinking about the High German/Low German split which never seems to go away. This can already be done using the Flemish tag. My biggest concerns about this are that it foists an artificial disunity on the German higher aristocracy, and it would take a prohibitively long commitment of time to change the character cultures in all three scenarios for every new patch.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

I'm not sure what what those numbers, brackets and plus' and minus' are supposed to mean. Can you please explain what's it's supposed to mean?

 

[Calgacus]

I'm not sure what what those numbers, brackets and plus' and minus' are supposed to mean. Can you please explain what's it's supposed to mean?

I should have explained, it means that the number of cultures represented by the culture mentioned will increase (ignoring other specific cultures on the list).

So for instance, Italian +1 (=2) could mean a north-south division of Italy (perhaps along the Gallo-Romance, Italo-Dalmatian division in ethnologue). Scandinavian +2 would mean Norse becomes Norwegian, Danish (+1) and Swedish (+2); and so forth.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

My suggestion would be to put the mod on hold for a while.

Give you some time to look in to the latest betapatch and make the necessary changes in that one, which is alot of work.

And when that is done, then everyone has had time to cool down and think the cultural setup over again, and then start a discussion again about which culture should be added/removed/changed etc.

 

[Calgacus]

Give you some time to look in to the latest betapatch and make the necessary changes in that one, which is alot of work.
.

I'm not releasing a new beta until the next official beta comes out anyway, which will be later in the week.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

I'm not releasing a new beta until the next official beta comes out anyway, which will be later in the week.

No, it has come out today

 

[Calgacus]

No, it has come out today

LOL ... I'd never have known. :rofl:

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Yes, Paradox always suprises us, you think friday is patchday and then they post one on monday.