Grand Culture Mod (Thread 2: Continuation of Finellach's)

[Zebedee]

It from the beta, the Republic of Cordoba ???

Yeah, confused the **** out of me. I thought Venice had paid a visit
:wacko:

 

[unmerged(27913)]

Sorry my mistake, I was just thinking about the Vlachs in Greece, forgot completely the Romanians and Moldavians, which haven't disappeared at all. o

Vlachs in Greece are still there...they are just not recognized as etnic minority because Greece doesn't admits ethnic minorities.

 

[Mad King James]

No. Hungarians should not be expanding. They had more than plenty of spreading in their core provinces. When Magyars came there people living there were manily Slavs...Magyars assimilated them and this assimilation went underway for most of the part. Other proinces such as Slovakia and Transylvania were "protected" due to geographic reasons(mountain area) and northern Croatia(Slavonia) due to historic reasons...Croats were and are people who are not easily assimilated.

Uh I'd like to point out that the Dacians were not Slavs, nor were they Greeks, rather they were part of the Thracian/Dacian/Vlach/"Romanian" family of languages.

 

[Calgacus]

Uh I'd like to point out that the Dacians were not Slavs, nor were they Greeks, rather they were part of the Thracian/Dacian/Vlach/"Romanian" family of languages.

Vlach and Romanian are Romance, dialects and derivations of the late antique lingua romana. The names Thracian and Dacian imply a connection with now dead strands of Indo-European, speculated by many (but denied by some including Finellach) to be most closely related to Albanian, primarily because Albanian is also loose strand and needs an origin theory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_Albanians

The only thing Romanian/Vlach has in common with Dacian is geographical location.

 

[Zebedee]

Albanian is indo-european but lack of records pre-C15th and the number of loan words makes any kind of link with other Indo-European languages impossible.

The Albanian link is very dubious - shared vocab doesn't mean shared source.

Thracian and Dacian are mad languages - you can link them to almost anything. IIRC latest theory put forward was some kind of link to Slavic but it's pure speculation. I mean, there's only one known inscription in Dacian - Someone son of Someone else IIRC.

Romanian does have a few hundred words which may be of Dacian origin, but this doesn't mean shared origin.

 

[Calgacus]

This is what I have for the Mari so far. I think I will have to plunder names from neighbouring Ugrians. In a few hours I will be able to consult a source book for medieval Russia, and two books on Siberia. None are likely to help. If I knew Finnish or Estonian, then obtaining Mari names would be much easier. I might also think be able to convert Finnish names to Mari by following the patterns of difference. But alas. A few are modern names, a few are deity names and a few are Mari words that I've just made a given name.

MALE

Boltush
Kete
Kol
Miklai
Nikonor
Obi
Sergej
Toj
Vaslin
Yuvan


FEMALE

Gena
Jokar
Ljudmila
Kaltashekva
Shunshochynava

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Sergej looks quite much like a Russian derivated name. I'd like to be of help, but I can't find good sites online and there's only comparison sample texts of Mari and Moksha available in the library, no names.

 

[Calgacus]

Sergej looks quite much like a Russian derivated name. .

Yeah, there's gonna be a few more of them too. We already have loads of Finnic names, it's just a question of converting them, like Henricus, Enrique, Enrico, Henri, Henry, Heinrich, Hendrik, Henrik, etc. Or Johannus, Juan, John, Jan, Jean, Iain, Iohanne, Johan, Joa, etc.

Can that be done with Finnic languages?

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Well, most Christian derivated names convert quite simply. For example:

Latin "Joannes", German "Johannes" is in Finnish also "Johannes"
Latin "Henricus", Swedish "Henrik" is in Finnish also "Henrik"
Latin "Paulus", Russian "Pavel" is in Finnish "Paavali", slightly altered.

But then we have these names like "Stefanos" -> "Tapani". Afaik "Tapani" as a name has pre-christian roots into a forest god, named "Tapio" in Kalevala, but that was recycled by christians to be equilevant of "Stefanos".

I hope this helps a bit.

 

[yourworstnightm]

Do not know much of the mari alnguage and the finnic versions of rus names. Living in Finland myself I say of course you can find finnic versions of for example Henry (Heinärikki from swedish Henrik, not used anymore but on the middle ages, another version is Eerikki from swedish Erik, another version of that is just Eerik). The problem with finnish is that most opf these names are finnic versions of swedish names. You had John as an example, that's in sweidsh Johan, and in finnish it's Juhanna, Juhani or just Juha. The mari and the finnic use of rus names probably did exist.

 

[yourworstnightm]

Well, most Christian derivated names convert quite simply. For example:

Latin "Joannes", German "Johannes" is in Finnish also "Johannes"
Latin "Henricus", Swedish "Henrik" is in Finnish also "Henrik"
Latin "Paulus", Russian "Pavel" is in Finnish "Paavali", slightly altered.

But then we have these names like "Stefanos" -> "Tapani". Afaik "Tapani" as a name has pre-christian roots into a forest god, named "Tapio" in Kalevala, but that was recycled by christians to be equilevant of "Stefanos".

I hope this helps a bit.

Medieval sources though are in swedish, and name most people with swedish names. Old songs and stuff reveal that many native finns would have said Juhanna or Juhani instead of Johannes and Heinärikki instead of Henrik. Although the latin version of the names were sure used, I can't see the swedish elite use Paavali or Tapani, they would have used the latin or swedih version, the same goes with the russian elite in the ugric areas in east. Probably used latin or rus versions.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Aye, it would be best to have just traditional names in the list, but it's probably next to impossible to separate traditional Mari names from foreign derivatives without being either Mari or having really studied Finno-Ugric languages.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Medieval sources though are in swedish, and name most people with swedish names. Old songs and stuff reveal that many native finns would have said Juhanna or Juhani instead of Johannes and Heinärikki instead of Henrik. Although the latin version of the names were sure used, I can't see the swedish elite use Paavali or Tapani, they would have used the latin or swedih version, the same goes with the russian elite in the ugric areas in east. Probably used latin or rus versions.

CK name lists generally use modern spellings already, for pratical reasons.

 

[Calgacus]

I was more after an understanding of the mutual relationships between proto-Finnic and Finnish, and Mari; in the same way as you can work out what a Spanish and Italian version of a Latin name will be by understanding their mutual relationship to Latin. It was just hopeful.

I do have access to a decent number of Ostyak (aka Khant) names in my book on the history of Siberian natives, and medieval Russia sourcebook. If I could get my hands on Medieval Russian Epics, Chronicles, and Tales by Serge A. Zenkovsky I'd probably be able to pull out a few names.

Oh, if anyone finds the Life of St. Stephan of Perm online, let me know. I know it's out there, I just can't locate it.

Perhaps if a Finn could isolate the pre-christian names in the Finnish and Lappish lists I could use them.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Latest patch Finnish name list is already dominantly (perhaps even fully) populated by pre-christian names.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

Uh I'd like to point out that the Dacians were not Slavs, nor were they Greeks, rather they were part of the Thracian/Dacian/Vlach/"Romanian" family of languages.

Where have I said otherwise? What is in my posts that you interpted as saying otherwise?

Besides I must note that Dacians/Thracians had a huge slavic influence on them....some even believe that Thracians/Dacians and Illyrians were actually romanized and hellenzied proto-Slavs...

 

[Zebedee]

Oh, if anyone finds the Life of St. Stephan of Perm online, let me know. I know it's out there, I just can't locate it.

Sure you don't mean Panegyric to St. Stephen of Perm
by Epiphanius the Wise? Will see if I can find the Panegyric just in case it's what you are after.

 

[Calgacus]

Sure you don't mean Panegyric to St. Stephen of Perm
by Epiphanius the Wise? Will see if I can find the Panegyric just in case it's what you are after.

Hey, hagiographies are both.

It does get called a Life/Vita in English and other W.European languages, but I dunno what it's called in Russian.

 

[Zebedee]

Hey, hagiographies are both.

Was lateral thinking and typed it in and got more resonses. Google work is slow though for me atm.

It does get called a Life/Vita in English and other W.European languages, but I dunno what it's called in Russian.

http://www.the-orb.net/ is what I use when desperate. Might have something hidden in one of the links, or another search site may have it linked (other search sites linked there). Author is called Epifany *sommat* in Russian.

 

[Calgacus]

OK, here are the lists. Added the Lappish names in the character file to the Permian list. Put half a dozen or so Finnish names in the Volga-Finn list, with some Khant, Mansi, Kipchak and Turkish names. I both cases the core names should predominate.


PERMIAN

saxon;female;Chyzh
saxon;female;Galina
saxon;female;Gribova
saxon;female;Hella
saxon;female;Hoketillin
saxon;female;Kaltashekva
saxon;femalemale;Kuóin
saxon;female;Kyldysin
saxon;female;Kyldysin
saxon;female;Mu-Kyldysin
saxon;female;Rauha
saxon;female;Vanamo
saxon;female;Vooišur
saxon;female;Zarnian
saxon;male;Aimo
saxon;male;Alangasar
saxon;male;Asiki
saxon;male;Bæivi
saxon;male;Bosi
saxon;male;Chöz-duck
saxon;male;Hoketill
saxon;male;Hoketill
saxon;male;Inmar
saxon;male;Inmar
saxon;male;Jen
saxon;male;Juri
saxon;male;Jomali
saxon;male;Jomali
saxon;male;Kuó
saxon;female;Kyldys
saxon;male;Kvasia
saxon;male;Mufti
saxon;male;Njuolla
saxon;male;Ob
saxon;male;Omöl
saxon;male;Pentti
saxon;male;Pera
saxon;male;Pera
saxon;male;Pamoi
saxon;male;Pamoi
saxon;male;Salym
saxon;male;Salym
saxon;male;Sarak
saxon;male;Tapani
saxon;male;Viotto

VOLGA FINNS


swedish;female;Aino
swedish;female;Boltushin
swedish;female;Fatma
swedish;female;Gena
swedish;female;Gena
swedish;female;Jokar
swedish;female;Jokar
swedish;female;Lempi
swedish;female;Ljudmila
swedish;female;Kaltashekva
swedish;female;Motya
swedish;female;Özgül
swedish;female;Rauha
swedish;female;Shunshochynava
swedish;female;Shunshochynava
swedish;female;Tyyne
swedish;male;Aimo
swedish;male;Amalyk
swedish;male;Boltush
swedish;male;Boltush
swedish;male;Boltush
swedish;male;Boltush
swedish;male;Boltush
swedish;male;Boltush
swedish;male;Boltush
swedish;male;Bului
swedish;male;Bura
swedish;male;Choriv
swedish;male;Haapa
swedish;male;Ihala
swedish;male;Ihala
swedish;male;Ihala
swedish;male;Kalevi
swedish;male;Kalyu
swedish;male;Kete
swedish;male;Kii
swedish;male;Kol
swedish;male;Mainio
swedish;male;Mainio
swedish;male;Mainio
swedish;male;Miemo
swedish;male;Miklai
swedish;male;Nikonor
swedish;male;Obi
swedish;male;Oiva
swedish;male;Oiva
swedish;male;Oiva
swedish;male;Okseit
swedish;male;Osman
swedish;male;Päiviö
swedish;male;Satyga
swedish;male;Sergej
swedish;male;Shchechek
swedish;male;Sokal
swedish;male;Togay
swedish;male;Toj
swedish;male;Uoti
swedish;male;Vaslin
swedish;male;Vavlo
swedish;male;Voitto
swedish;male;Yuvan
swedish;male;Yuvan