Grand Culture Mod (Thread 2: Continuation of Finellach's)

[Zebedee]

Thanks for that Zebedee Don't worry, my fixation with Saxonising the marches ends at the Welsh border. 'Perfeddwlad' or whatever the game calls it should be Welsh without shadow of doubt in 1066..

haha. I'll restrain my urges on representing Mercia as both Saxon and Welsh then

Horses for courses and all that

 

[Semi-Lobster]

BTW, could you two reccomend any books on the subject of pre-Norman Britain?

 

[Zebedee]

BTW, could you two reccomend any books on the subject of pre-Norman Britain?

Eeeeee.... not really. There are a huge amount of books on Anglo-Saxon England (Richard Fletcher's Bloodfeud is interesting but I have 'issues' with the book). Problem is that there is so very little to go on - most information on the 'Dark Ages' is only found in academic papers and journals in my experience, and it takes an eternity for that to filter to the more mainstream historians. Almost every book I've seen on the period has focused almost entirely on the Anglo-Saxon angle, simply because of the source material available. Hence the over reliance on Domesday and place names even now.

I remember Earl saying that he read history (as opposed to linguistics like me) so hopefully he can recall some textbooks from his undergrad days.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

I know we don't want to talk about it and you probably discussed this earlier.... but why does Zeeland go Frisian, to Flemish, to German?

Also Avhaz should stay Arabic through the period and by 1337 Hendjan should be Arab to due to a large influx of settlers from modern day Kuwait.

And North Africa is way too static, Arab culture should be conistantly expanding at the expense of Berber.... I dunno where and when but it should, wish I was more knowledgable on the subject.

Lastly why would Kipchak expand into Turkmenistan and Caspian Kazakhstan?

 

[Calgacus]

I shouldn't matter where the borders are, it should be who lived there, and if you look at any map there are no major towns or cities south of the Eider other then Kiel (which wasn't built yet), north of the Eider, there is the cities of Schleswig and Hebedy/Haithabu. Lubeck has it's own province as does Hamburg .

Of course, cities are almost irrelevent, accounting in the cases of virtually all European regions outside of Russia and the Mediterranean for less than 1% of the population. In 1066, Scotland had no towns or cities. Ireland had a few, all Norse speaking (at least at first). Would Ireland have all Norse culture, and Scotland no culture in 1066?

More pertinently, perhaps the warriors raised by the local lord are an important consideration. Should the German lord of Holstein really be raising soldiers who have more in common (scandinavian sprite) with Icelanders and Northern Norwegians than his relative a few miles down in Hamburg, just because the northern & noth-eastern fringes of the CK drawn region were or once were in the possession of the Danish king?

 

[Calgacus]

I know we don't want to talk about it and you probably discussed this earlier.... but why does Zeeland go Frisian, to Flemish, to German?

Because Veldmaarschalk said so earlier, and I haven't found a reason to argue against him.

And North Africa is way too static, Arab culture should be conistantly expanding at the expense of Berber.... I dunno where and when but it should, wish I was more knowledgable on the subject.

Well, me too. In all cases where I didn't myself have much of an idea, I just followed either the default vanilla maps, the 1066 map or a combination of them both in certain cirtcumstances (i.e. new cultures, blantant absurdity, etc). Why would I change anything if I had no reason to? That would be irresponsible.

Lastly why would Kipchak expand into Turkmenistan and Caspian Kazakhstan?

Default maps. Like I said, I followed the vanilla maps unless I was immediately aware not to, or was otherwise motivated.

The justification as far as I can guess, was prolly by the strengthening of paganism upon the arrival of other eastern nomads, such as the Mongols. Remember that Kipchak doesn't represent Kipchak, it represents Turks with comparatively little islamicization. (Don't blame me for the name; I'd just have called it Turkic, but I got abusively harangued for that quite sensible suggestion!)

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Actually arab culture should not be constantly expanding at the expense of berber in NA until late in the game.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Actually arab culture should not be constantly expanding at the expense of berber in NA until late in the game.

Interesting Any ideas where and when?

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Originally Posted by Semi-Lobster
I know we don't want to talk about it and you probably discussed this earlier.... but why does Zeeland go Frisian, to Flemish, to German?

In 1066 the islands that then made up Zeeland were called the Frisian islands, and there lived free peasants and some small local lords. Of Frisian heritage.

During the 12th and 13th century, there were a lot of wars between Flanders and Holland about the area and at some point, Flanders held the upperhand there.

In the 14t century Holland got the upperhand in most of Zeeland, the region was divided in Zeeland East of the Scheldt (which is the north part ) and Zeeland west of the Scheldt (which is the south part ). Zeeland west of the Scheldt is part of Brugge in CK map.

Since Holland by then didn't have Frisian culture anymore (The Frisian culture lost more and more terrain in the middle ages) but a culture that would have the name Middle-Netherlands or Middle-Dutcht or Dietsch, take your pick. The Dietsch culture was a mix of frisian and low-frankish (low-frankish is a german culture) cultures (Flemish was a low-frankish culture to).

Since we don't have Low-frankish or Dietsch culture in the game, the only real option is German. Since Flemish was the name of the culture and language in Flanders. And it would be silly to have Flemish culture outside Flanders, it would be just as weird to give the scandinavian cultures the name Danish or all gaelic cultures the name Irish. Or all the south-slavic cultures the name Serbian.

Hopefully this has been the last time the subject has been brought up.

The current setup isn't ideal but that best that can be achieved with the tags we have.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

More pertinently, perhaps the warriors raised by the local lord are an important consideration. Should the German lord of Holstein really be raising soldiers who have more in common (scandinavian sprite) with Icelanders and Northern Norwegians than his relative a few miles down in Hamburg, just because the northern & noth-eastern fringes of the CK drawn region were or once were in the possession of the Danish king?

Holstein is owned by Danes in 1066 at least, so would the Danish lord of Holstein raise soldiers that have more in common with people of Bavaria than with his kinsmen in the Jutland peninsula?

 

[Calgacus]

Holstein is owned by Danes in 1066 at least, so would the Danish lord of Holstein raise soldiers that have more in common with people of Bavaria than with his kinsmen in the Jutland peninsula?

Well, Holstein didn't exist until 1111. Who is the default lord in the 1066 scenario?

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Well, Holstein didn't exist until 1111. Who is the default lord in the 1066 scenario?

Currently Bjorn Svendson, duke of Slesvig and son and vassal of the king of Denmark.

 

[Calgacus]

Currently Bjorn Svendson, duke of Slesvig and son and vassal of the king of Denmark.

OK. Well I suppose then the most reasonable solution is to have Holstein Danish for 1066, but German for 1187 and 1337.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

In 1337, I don't think Abghazia should be Kipchak in the 1337 scenario, I assume this is another left over from the Vanilla map?

 

[unmerged(21937)]

OK. Well I suppose then the most reasonable solution is to have Holstein Danish for 1066, but German for 1187 and 1337.

What if Holstein is owned by Danes in other scenarios too?

 

[Calgacus]

What if Holstein is owned by Danes in other scenarios too?

Is it? It shouldn't be. At any rate, Holstein in part of the Kingdom of Germany from 1111 thereafter, no matter who owns it.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Interesting Any ideas where and when?

mostly in the west and mostly do to supression. Somewhat also in Granada, but this would be more akin to a merging of berber and arab culture.

Anyway both of these would happen after 1337 scenero would start.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

Is it? It shouldn't be. At any rate, Holstein in part of the Kingdom of Germany from 1111 thereafter, no matter who owns it.

Actually it shouldn't be. You are talking of Duchy of Holstein, what is a province of Holstein should be Danish for all that period...both politically and culturally. In fact when we speak of political setup it's good to know that Danes actually even held whole Duchy/County of Holstein by middle-late 14th century until 19th century.

 

[Calgacus]

Actually it shouldn't be. You are talking of Duchy of Holstein, what is a province of Holstein should be Danish for all that period...both politically and culturally. In fact when we speak of political setup it's good to know that Danes actually even held whole Duchy/County of Holstein by middle-late 14th century until 19th century.

According to my intepretation of the maps, most of CK Holstein is in fact German, not Danish.

Holstein was never part of the Kingdom of Denmark. The attempt of the Danish kings to make it so in the 19th century, cost them possession of it.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

I don't with what you could justify such interpretation....

Also I suggested you look at the maps and see for yourself that part of Holstein(Holstein province in CK) was always part of Denamrk all the way up until 19th century. Luebeck and most of what is Hamburg proince from 14th - 19th century also.