I think we need to figure out our policy on 'Province name' vs. 'actual location of the province', Holstein in CK is (ironically) where Schlesvig/Shleswig, Flensburg/Flensborg and Haithabu are while Holstein should (probably) be German
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Does this include any of the berber stuff i did?Calgacus said:The maps on page 1 are quite up-to-date BTW.
Until people test the scenarios, I'll be in no rush to update. The spare tag, and culture division in general seems to spawn more debate than anything else. Well, there's plenty of time do this. The Perm, the Moravians and the Gall-Gaidheal seem to be the only candidates at the moment. Fire away with more suggestions. Obviously the spare tag can also be used for reordering, but any such proposal will need good and convincing arguments behind it.
Allso ibn Butata dynasty (from this post) should also be made to spawn from tangeirs.
Also I'd like to see in the 1337 scenario that Dyfed not be Welsh (and yes I know this leaves Glamorgan Welsh as it should be). Pembrokeshire was founded in 1282 by order of Edward I, has long been split between its anglicized south (known as "Little England beyond Wales") and its Welsh north. Despite its distance from England, it is one of the most anglicised areas of the principality.
The area first became distinct from the rest of Wales when it was settled by Vikings. This separation was reinforced after the Norman conquest of England, when the area was also settled by Normans, who built a string of castles known as the Landsker Line to defend the region. During the Middle Ages, a colony of Flemish weavers was also imported into the area.
The region has kept its anglicised culture and sense of separation ever since. Until the nineteenth century, the region was the only English-speaking area of Wales away from the English border.
(most of this is shamelessly stolen from Wikipedia because I'm not lazy to retype this )
The area first became distinct from the rest of Wales when it was settled by Vikings. This separation was reinforced after the Norman conquest of England, when the area was also settled by Normans, who built a string of castles known as the Landsker Line to defend the region. During the Middle Ages, a colony of Flemish weavers was also imported into the area.
The region has kept its anglicised culture and sense of separation ever since. Until the nineteenth century, the region was the only English-speaking area of Wales away from the English border.
(most of this is shamelessly stolen from Wikipedia because I'm not lazy to retype this
)
Holstein is in 1066 scenario at start still part of Denmark. Also there is the issue of the location of Holstein province. The thing is that Holstein should be made of three provinces: Luebeck, Holstein, Bremen.
As it is now there is no chance Holstein province can be German...
Btw. some may want to know that I finished implementing my own mod and that it all works.
I now have to play few campaigns to see if there are some additional problems and then I am off to make a custom CoA pack for this mod.
As it is now there is no chance Holstein province can be German...
Btw. some may want to know that I finished implementing my own mod and that it all works.
I now have to play few campaigns to see if there are some additional problems and then I am off to make a custom CoA pack for this mod.
You mean the duchy of Holstein ? With Lubeck, Holstein and Hamburg
Like other poster said already it is more Slesvig then Holstein and with this map in mind it would look like Holstein in CK is north of the Eider to.
Semi-Lobster said:
Agreed. A good case along the same lines could be made for the NE Welsh province (can't remember what name the game has for it right now - and too lazy too check
). It became the county palatine of Flint and I think that it should really be English in the later scenario due to the sheer volume of immigrants brought in to populate the castle towns. The encroachment in this area came from the Chester direction and there are still a few motte and bailey mounds to stumble over from the pre-Edward era.No linkage or precise dates due to 56k modem and unpacked cases of books (and this site takes ages to load using the internet superlayby :wacko: ).
Veldmaarschalk said:You mean the duchy of Holstein ? With Lubeck, Holstein and Hamburg
Yes, I meant duchy.
For Coptic culture, in 1187 Asyut and Quena should be Arab and by 1337 there should be no Coptic culture left on the map.
Also Vlach culture doesn't move at all in any of the maps? After the Pechenegs where utterly crushed by the Cumans and Byzatines the Pechenegs where absorbed into the Vlach population. Belograd, Olvia and Oleshye should be Vlach in the two later scenarios.
Also Vlach culture doesn't move at all in any of the maps? After the Pechenegs where utterly crushed by the Cumans and Byzatines the Pechenegs where absorbed into the Vlach population. Belograd, Olvia and Oleshye should be Vlach in the two later scenarios.
Zebedee said:Agreed. A good case along the same lines could be made for the NE Welsh province (can't remember what name the game has for it right now - and too lazy too check
No linkage or precise dates due to 56k modem and unpacked cases of books (and this site takes ages to load using the internet superlayby :wacko: ).
Hey Zebedee long time no see!
(and that NE Welsh province you're talking about, are you talking about Perfeddwlad more to the north or Powys more to the East)BTW In the maps if Flemish shrinking? I know it lost ground in France but didn't the Flemish dialect spread north? Andy why in the later maps is Switzerland all German?
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Semi-Lobster said:Hey Zebedee long time no see!
BTW In the maps if Flemish shrinking? I know it lost ground in France but didn't the Flemish dialect spread north? Andy why in the later maps is Switzerland all German?
No Flemish didn't spread north, Flemish was dialect of the middle-netherlands language (or sometimes called Diets or Dietsch). Middle-netherlands came from old-netherlands or sometimes called old-low franconian/frankish.
But since there is no low-frankish or dietsch culture in the game, it would be wrong to have flemish spread north, since Flemish was the name of that language in Flanders. It would be wrong to have flemish culture outside Flanders I believe, but the current setup is a compromise
I believe this subject has been discussed a lot already in this thread and the previous thread, so should we really do it all over again ?
Ok then, the Low countries are a bigger hornet's nest then any other part of the map I'll just leave the issue
I'll just leave the issue
Semi-Lobster said:Ok then, the Low countries are a bigger hornet's nest then any other part of the map
A very wise decision my friend
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Zebedee said:Agreed. A good case along the same lines could be made for the NE Welsh province (can't remember what name the game has for it right now - and too lazy too check
No linkage or precise dates due to 56k modem and unpacked cases of books (and this site takes ages to load using the internet superlayby :wacko: ).
I wanted to mention that but didn't want to cement my reputation as an Taffophobe.
In fact that area - properly Tegeingl (as in 'Deceangli') to the Welsh and Englafeld and Exestan to the English - was settled at least in part much earlier on, perhaps round the end of the eighth century and the beginning of the ninth when Mercia more or less puppeted, then occupied Powys, sacked Degannwy and Bangor and repeatedly brought Gwynedd to its knees. Offa's Dyke was long thought to end at 'Basingwerk' (by Queensferry). That it turned out not to might suggest the west coast of the Dee was in Anglian hands and the frontier was not in fact the river but Pentre Halkyn with its lead mines dealing in part through the lost site of Hilbre on the Wirral.
As Mercia declined, then collapsed, Wales revived in spite of Viking activity. Even so, 'Cledemutha' (Clywd-mouth) became a burh of Edward the Elder's after Hingamund's Norsemen terrorised the region in 919. At some point after this, though, the site, Rhuddlan to the Welsh, came back to Gwynedd. Gruffydd ap Llywelyn made his court here, and though his reign was ultimately a failure, he reinforced a cultural frontier that was to hold until well into the Norman period. In the south, similarly, Caradeuch destroyed many English vills on both sides of the border and forced the abandonment of a Saxon lodge at Portskewett.
But pre-Norman English names survive far into Wales. An example is Prestatyn, Preostatun, settlement of priests.
The Flemish did spread to the north but today it is in spirit of political correctness bettwer to speak of Dutch then of Flemish spreading north. So basically Flemish did spread but when they arrived they were transformed into Dutch. :rofl:
The black dot is the town of Schleswig, the blue is the Eider. The lines are me using Zealand as a reference point. To me it doesn't look like Denmark takes up enough of Holstein to go against intuition and make Holstein Danish. And I was being favorable to the southerlyness of Schleswig. Schleswig is actually north of the cavity on the Western side of Jutland, which virtually puts in on the Slesvig side of the CK border.
Any problems?
Earl Uhtred said:
It's actually where I grew up (some interesting digs coming up in the area too with housing developments - should help place the Roman lead workings around Oakenholt a bit better if nothing else). Erm, yeah, I'm digressing.
All good points Earl - at some point the ferry at Flint may prove to have survived post-Roman times (that point being when they find it and if anything has survived). But I'd say that apart from that very narrow coastal strip (say from Queensferry to Greenfield/Shotton in length, up to Halkyn in width) the area remained culturally Celtic even at the height of Saxon power - the Clwydians were one of the North Welsh strongholds. There is a putative Welsh Prince's estate near Bagillt (although some have argued it could be Saxon - dig needed, but may not prove anything) - can't think of anything further east than that though.
The call is really do the castle towns' inhabitants (ie 'English') outweigh the hill dwellers ('Welsh'). The coastal strip is the traditional invasion route and easy to control, a few miles inland is a totally different story. Tough one to decide, especially in an era when a Welsh holiday was a day trip to Chester to see what was flammable
I'm fine with it being English (balance of populations etc) in the last scenario but dubious about it any earlier. The English towns were not that big at that stage and if we take Flint as an example were constantly refortified indicating that there was definitely contested land.IIRC Offa's Dyke is meant to have been somewhere near Prestatyn - western extent in North Wales. Can't doublecheck though atm.
Hello to the aquatic one
I shouldn't matter where the borders are, it should be who lived there, and if you look at any map there are no major towns or cities south of the Eider other then Kiel (which wasn't built yet), north of the Eider, there is the cities of Schleswig and Hebedy/Haithabu. Lubeck has it's own province as does Hamburg .
Zebedee said:It's actually where I grew up (some interesting digs coming up in the area too with housing developments - should help place the Roman lead workings around Oakenholt a bit better if nothing else). Erm, yeah, I'm digressing.
All good points Earl - at some point the ferry at Flint may prove to have survived post-Roman times (that point being when they find it and if anything has survived). But I'd say that apart from that very narrow coastal strip (say from Queensferry to Greenfield/Shotton in length, up to Halkyn in width) the area remained culturally Celtic even at the height of Saxon power - the Clwydians were one of the North Welsh strongholds. There is a putative Welsh Prince's estate near Bagillt (although some have argued it could be Saxon - dig needed, but may not prove anything) - can't think of anything further east than that though.
The call is really do the castle towns' inhabitants (ie 'English') outweigh the hill dwellers ('Welsh'). The coastal strip is the traditional invasion route and easy to control, a few miles inland is a totally different story. Tough one to decide, especially in an era when a Welsh holiday was a day trip to Chester to see what was flammable
IIRC Offa's Dyke is meant to have been somewhere near Prestatyn - western extent in North Wales. Can't doublecheck though atm.
Hello to the aquatic one
I was wondering, my knowledge of Great Britain gets poorer and poorer the more North and East you go. But is there any chance Westmoreland still being Brythonic? I really need to get some more books on pre-Norman Britain...
Semi-Lobster said:
Nah. Not unless you want to argue that the North Welsh held on in Cumbria beyond the migrations to North Wales. The language probably lingered in isolated hamlets and farmsteads but the migrations were pretty massive if the cultural impact on North Wales is any indication.
My personal theory is that the migration helped to secure North Wales as far as the outskirts of Chester as Welsh until Norman times. Total hypothesis based on very insecure grounds but it seems to fit and I've not seen anything better proposed.
Thanks for that Zebedee Don't worry, my fixation with Saxonising the marches ends at the Welsh border. 'Perfeddwlad' or whatever the game calls it should be Welsh without shadow of doubt in 1066.
Hard to prove. A page or two further up Calgacus and yours truly discussed this briefly. Frankly there's too little evidence. Toponymy suggests quite heavy Norse and Hiberno-Norse settlement but many places and most natural features kept their older names.
Don't worry, my fixation with Saxonising the marches ends at the Welsh border. 'Perfeddwlad' or whatever the game calls it should be Welsh without shadow of doubt in 1066.Semi-Lobster said:
Hard to prove. A page or two further up Calgacus and yours truly discussed this briefly. Frankly there's too little evidence. Toponymy suggests quite heavy Norse and Hiberno-Norse settlement but many places and most natural features kept their older names.