Grand Culture Mod (Thread 2: Continuation of Finellach's)

[jordarkelf]

IIRC: Provencal is an Occitan language, and Occitan is also the name of one Occitan dialect, which happens to be a dialect of Provencal.

As for the merger name: what about lingua franca? Both Catalan and Occitan are descendants of it.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Since this is a mod for CK I don't think we have to bother how it looks in EUII.

The culture mod will never become a official mod, so if people don't like it, don't use it.

Maybe, maybe not. It depends on how much Johan likes it. He's incorperated mods for other games into offical patches.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Maybe, maybe not. It depends on how much Johan likes it. He's incorperated mods for other games into offical patches.

I based it on the comments of some of the moderators.If it is incorporated, great. If not, no big problem either.

Well at least there isn't going to be a change in the cultures in 1.05 patch.

As for the merger name: what about lingua franca? Both Catalan and Occitan are descendants of it.

Lingua Franca isn't a culture

EDITED by popular demand
http://www.answers.com/lingua franca

 

[jordarkelf]

Hmm, I must've been thinking of something else.
And of course it isn't the name of a culture, but it can serve as one.
"south franks" is another option (one I dislike, for the record).

Occitano-Roman is the scientific term for the spectrum.

By the way, you can just post a link to the Wikipedia. No need to clutter up the thread...

 

[yourworstnightm]

South franks sounds bad, the point is they weren't franks, we could call the culture either occitan or catalan, or something else, like my awful proposal catalo- occitan, just to make people understand is a merger.

 

[Quift]

Names,

It's not a merger actually, Catalan separated from main occitan group later, mainly due to different inputs on iberian peninsula. So name would be Occitan.

As for the provancale/occitan mixup. The words are synonumous in english, but only due to ignorance, not to fact. in french the groups are clearly distinct. Provancal is much closer to italian than other Occitan languages, and is also viable as a culture in northwestern italy. Basically the rhone would serve as the division line between the groups. and maybe the river Po in italy.

Btw, meant pavia, not padua. pavia is the one north of Genoa, right?

 

[yourworstnightm]

Okay, I'm for calling the merged occitan- catalan culture occitan, why not. But I still oppose splitting italian, and create provencal, we would not win anything on giving that area more tags when other areas really need them more.

 

[Quift]

Okay, I'm for calling the merged occitan- catalan culture occitan, why not. But I still oppose splitting italian, and create provencal, we would not win anything on giving that area more tags when other areas really need them more.

Provancale would include parts of italian, and parts of occitan. So the new culture would be rather large. Thus having a raison d'étre. There is also an issue about the uniform italian culture. Northern and southern italy is culturally separate even today. And I don't believe this is as a result from splitting since...

Besides, If it makes the map look pretty, why not?

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

IIRC: Provencal is an Occitan language, and Occitan is also the name of one Occitan dialect, which happens to be a dialect of Provencal.

:wacko:

This is confusing.

So both Provencal, Occitan are Occitan languages. So why then split Provencal from Occitan ? Just because it looks good on the map ?

Also Catalan is part of the Iberian-Romance languages and not of the Occitan languages.

It would make more sense to ad the Rhaetian culture since that is an different language group within the Romance languages.

Or otherwise Francoprovencal (not to be confused with provencal)

 

[Sera]

To take a cue from one of Riddermark's (many) threads; how about implementing the religious schism in islam and devide it into shiite and sunni (using the moslem and jewish religious tags)? Seems to me religion is the last remaining left unadressed in an otherwise holistic 'cultural mod'.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

If you want to mod the religions better use a new thread. It might be confusing to do it in a culture mod.

 

[jordarkelf]

A possible italian split is in lombard/neapolitan.
But splitting italian while keeping German unified is rather weird.

In both cases you have two or more distinct cultures which are unified because of historical and political reasons, but there remains a difference to this day.

As for Catalan: Catalan is far less an Iberic Romance language than are Castillian and other Spanish languages. There is considerable overlap between Catalan and Occitan dialects, and in many cases the only reason a certain dialect is called Occitan or Catalan is because of its relative position to the Pyrenees.
One official language of Andorra for example is Catalan, but the local Catalonese dialect is indistinguishable from the Occitan dialect spoken just across the French border, and there are large differences with the Catalan dialect spoken on the Catalonian side of the border.
The reason Andorra speaks Catalan and not Occitan is that Catalan (and Catalonia) has official recognition in Spain, whereas Occitan has been and still is oppressed by the French government.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

There is only one spare tag left, so we have to wait untill Calgalus comes back.

 

[Calgacus]

There is indeed only one tag left.

I'd perhaps suggest that people spend more time reading medieval sources and general literature on the middle ages than merely consulting popular language trees and encyclopedias. Language of course is not the only issue involved, and unless we wish to have but one culture for the whole Lingua Romana continuum, then linguistic details are not usually going to be the most important factor in dividing it up; it is and was, after all, with the exception of the Sards and Vlachs , a continuum. Pointing out that one specific group of LR areas (for instance, the Catalan-Occitan areas) has a continuum is quite frankly superfluous to useful analysis, since we already know this applies to all LR areas.


Anyways, I've been reading Helmold's Chronicle of the Slavs. On the one hand it confirmed that Finellach's division of the Slavs corresponded very well with reality; however, it made it pretty clear also that Holstein is German, not Danish. If Finellach would care to explain why I should disbelieve Helmold, then I'd be happy to listen, but otherwise it'll become German
again.

The maps on page 1 are quite up-to-date BTW.
Until people test the scenarios, I'll be in no rush to update. The spare tag, and culture division in general seems to spawn more debate than anything else. Well, there's plenty of time do this. The Perm, the Moravians and the Gall-Gaidheal seem to be the only candidates at the moment. Fire away with more suggestions. Obviously the spare tag can also be used for reordering, but any such proposal will need good and convincing arguments behind it.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

There is indeed only one tag left.

I'd perhaps suggest that people spend more time reading medieval sources and general literature on the middle ages than merely consulting popular language trees and encyclopedias. Language of course is not the only issue involved, and unless we wish to have but one culture for the whole Lingua Romana continuum, then linguistic details are not usually going to be the most important factor in dividing it up; it is and was, after all, with the exception of the Sards and Vlachs , a continuum. Pointing out that one specific group of LR areas (for instance, the Catalan-Occitan areas) has a continuum is quite frankly superfluous to useful analysis, since we already know this applies to all LR areas.


Anyways, I've been reading Helmold's Chronicle of the Slavs. On the one hand it confirmed that Finellach's division of the Slavs corresponded very well with reality; however, it made it pretty clear also that Holstein is German, not Danish. If Finellach would care to explain why I should disbelieve Helmold, then I'd be happy to listen, but otherwise it'll become German
again.

The maps on page 1 are quite up-to-date BTW.
Until people test the scenarios, I'll be in no rush to update. The spare tag, and culture division in general seems to spawn more debate than anything else. Well, there's plenty of time do this. The Perm, the Moravians and the Gall-Gaidheal seem to be the only candidates at the moment. Fire away with more suggestions. Obviously the spare tag can also be used for reordering, but any such proposal will need good and convincing arguments behind it.

Sorry I've been away, I'm had a lot of 'stuff' to deal with recently and therefore have no idea what happened the last few (dozen or so) pages.

For Holstein being Danish, if we're talking about 1066 the reason Finellach made it Danish because there where almost no Germans there, proof as such is buried somewhere in the old thread when I asked the question. I'm sorry I can't be of more help but the answer is somewhere in there One could even go furthur then simply Danish as well because the main city of Holstein, Haithabu, the biggest Nordic city during the Viking Age and is regarded as the oldest city of Denmark. It is first mentioned in the chronicles of Einhard (804) who was in the service of Charlemagne. The oldest town in modern Denmark is Ribe, first mentioned in 854. The reason I propose Holstein be Polabian/Wendish is that Haithabu had recently that year been burned to the ground by maurading Wends, most likely part of the anti-Christian rampage caused by the pagan insurrection against the Christian Grand Prince of Wendia Gottschalk, anyway, the city had only recently recovered from being previously razed by King Harold Hardrada of Norway in 1050. And after the2nd razing of Haithabu, the city was abaonded and the Danes left the city for Slesvig leaving only Wagrians (a tribe of Wends), Danes outside Haithabu and a few Germans.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

But dose Haithabu really lie in the county of Holstein of the CK map ?

If so it would have been very much in the north of it on the border with Slesvig.

Also the maps I have seen all have Holstein as part of the Kingdom of Germany/HRE. Not that, that is prove of who inhabitated the region, but it gives us a clue.

EDIT
Since Byakhiam wasn't able to find any names of Perm I guess it is out, unless someone else could come up with a list. A culture with no names that will be hard to put in to the game.

 

[Styrbiorn]

But dose Haithabu really lie in the county of Holstein of the CK map ?

If so it would have been very much in the north of it on the border with Slesvig.

Also the maps I have seen all have Holstein as part of the Kingdom of Germany/HRE.

Hedeby is in the Holstein province, although in the very north part. 80+% of the CK province Holstein lies in old Denmark. Compare with this map, where Danavirke marks the border with the HRE.
http://www.lysator.liu.se/nordic/ill/Slesvig7.jpg

If you go by geographical regions, you should have Holstein as Danish.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

The city of Slesvig is in CK province Holstein, rather in the middle of it, if you compare CK map and it's geography to real map. Slesvig was afaik a Danish city in CK era.

 

[Calgacus]

The CK map is very skewed, but using the map on p. 2 of the 1933 edition of Tschan's translation of Helmold, Schleswig lies in the CK province of Slesvig, after which the developers named it. Moreover, it lies clearly within that province, quite far across the northern banks of the river Eider, "the boundary between Danes and Saxons." Helmold was writing in the mid 12th century, he is quite clear on the Eider boundary, and on the Saxon-ness of Holstein. I'm afraid given the high quality of the evidence and the province-naming, it seems unreasonable to make Holstein Danish for at least the 1187 scenario, if not the other two.

You've also got to remember that Saxons and Jutes were essentially the same people, separated only in the 9th century by religion and by the boundaries of the Kingdom of Denmark. A Scandinavian source, the Völsunga Saga, lists Saxons amongst the Scandinavian peoples ... which is essentially what they were until their conversion; whilst on the other hand, Jutes were no less German than any other continental Germanic speaking people, until religion and the growth of two separate kingsdoms separated them.


But just bare in mind I have no agenda (I couldn't care less what the boundary was) ... I'm merely following Helmold.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Odd, since modern Schleswig in Germany is definetly in Holstein CK province. The border of CK provinces Holstein and Slesvig appears to be similiar to modern Germany-Denmark border to me.

Of course this is no argument for Holstein province being Danish, since people of Slesvig could have been closer to Saxons than Danish back then too.