Grand Culture Mod (Thread 2: Continuation of Finellach's)

[unmerged(27913)]

Exeter should be Welsh in 1066 province. To make Devon Welsh and Exeter not is like making England English and London French.

 

[Calgacus]

Also for Cornwall, in 1187, it should be Exeter that was stil Celtic, not Devon, mainly because where the province is.

I'll leave the Gaelic question to Brian because, well, I tired of typing right now!

Can you give me some evidence for that?

The only reason I split it that way was because I've found references to Cornish in Devon on the north coast, and to represent the Anglo-British split in the whole area. It was a result of of a concession to which Earl Uthred agreed, who violently opposed with good reasoning the Britonization of the whole west country. So I'd like evidence before changing it.

I'll leave the Gaelic question to Brian because, well, I tired of typing right now!

The Gaelic decision for Scotland is as final as it's gonna get. I did my dissertation on language change in medieval Scotland, and I'm fairly pessimistic about the likelihood of anyone on these boards swaying me on this matter.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Name suggestions? Merge Cumans and Pechenegs with Turkish tag and leave it as Turkish...or if you insist rename it to Turkic.
There shouldn't be two Turkish-Turkic tags IMO.

Let's not get into this again

Well this is not popularity mod. And also everything can pass if you simply explain people that there is barely no difference between Norman and Frankish tag.

Also Saxons were already being "normanized" in 1066(after all game happens with William conquering England) and it would work perfectly if the new children would get more modern english names after 1066. As I said remove Saxon and replace it with English but keep Saxon names. The children will get more modern names and their parents will still have their anglo-saxon names. Also as pointed out you can rename English to Anglian to make it more medieval sounding...IMO Anglian sounds much better than English...but thats me.

Works for me!

OK, Turkish and Turkic it's gonna be.

Ugh, I don't like this one bit.

I don't see what would be so strange...we know that Normans were Frankish thus there is nothing to be strange.

I'm not talking about Nromans being French, they where, what I am talking about is that if we merged the two, who the hell would need a tag with a 'frankish' sprite? It wouldn't fit anywhere.

Nothing like that is needed.

Then what happens when the events start fireing then?

The names between Cumans, Pechenegs and Turkish tag are in 98% cases the same...if no 99%

But what about Islamic names?

If we would have enough tags....with merger of Turkic tribes this would be posibble. The 'none' tag should not IMO be used...there are too much problems with this and we need none tag.

I though you said you test it and nothing bad happened?

I'd advise against that. There is no point in doing this.

I do admit three cultures for the Turks is rather excessive. If we can address the name thing, then I'd be happy to see them merged

1. There is no such thing as Mordvin culture or names...this name is term devised for two distinct finno-ugric people living there
2. These people were called Volga Finns....I think that speaks for itself...

1.The difference only exists due to the effects of the introduction of turkic peoples into this region.
2.They where called Volga Finns by the Rus, they didn't really care about any difference between the two peoples. And like I said a bit earlier, it would be easier to lump Finnish. Estonian, Karelian, and Mordvin into one tag, and Lappish and Samoyed into another. A few additional 'Mordvin' names would only to balance out things a bit.

What would we call the culture?

Bohemian I guess, although that does belittle the achievements of the moravians, but there aren't a lot of candidates for a better name.

It is a big decision, coz anyone can throw in the argument "if we split them, then why not ... ." I will wait for more feedback, esp. from Scandinavians.

A very prudent move, but Hallsten was from Norway and he seemed to like the idea of a merger.

The name list would be equally problematic in either case.

I don't see how, Welsh and Cornish names where nearly identical other then for some spelling variations every once in a while Breton nobility though used French names.

That would be great, if you can do it.

I think bothering people at the embassy may be abit much, I'll just PM one of our Russian posters about the matter.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Exeter should be Welsh in 1066 province. To make Devon Welsh and Exeter not is like making England English and London French.

I said make Exeter Welsh and Devon not Welsh, by Devon i mean the Devon province, to the north of Exeter. But Calgacus' has a pretty godo reason to keep it as is. Perhaps all this typing is simply getting to my head, I've been on my feet all day because my computer chair is leeking black stuff, and i'm rather tired

 

[Calgacus]

Let's not get into this again

I do admit three cultures for the Turks is rather excessive. If we can address the name thing, then I'd be happy to see them merged

The name thing has been addressed as well as it can be. It is Turkic and Turkish for now.

2.They where called Volga Finns by the Rus, they didn't really care about any difference between the two peoples. And like I said a bit earlier, it would be easier to lump Finnish. Estonian, Karelian, and Mordvin into one tag, and Lappish and Samoyed into another. A few additional 'Mordvin' names would only to balance out things a bit.

I like this. I do need a believable collective name for the Lapps-Samoyed.

Bohemian I guess, although that does belittle the achievements of the moravians, but there aren't a lot of candidates for a better name.

OK.

I don't see how, Welsh and Cornish names where nearly identical other then for some spelling variations every once in a while Breton nobility though used French names.

No, my point was that a British list would have the same name problems as a Gaelic list. We'd have Diarmits and Conchobars as counts, dukes and kings in Scotland.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

The name thing has been addressed as well as it can be. It is Turkic and Turkish for now.

That'd be ok if we could find better names then Turkic and Turkish but we don't Maybe we should ask OHgamer, he's a Turk expert, maybe he would know.

I like this. I do need a believable collective name for the Lapps-Samoyed.

I propose Finnic/Finnish for Finnish, Karelian, Estonian and Mordvin and Uralic for Lapps and Samoyed.

No, my point was that a British list would have the same name problems as a Gaelic list. We'd have Diarmits and Conchobars as counts, dukes and kings in Scotland.

Now I have a hillarious image in my head of an English noble riding into Exter and embracing Cornish culture and speaking to the locals in Cornish. Assimiliation is not a unique problem though and there's nothing we can do about it.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Uralic sounds weird for a culture in Lappland. Lappish, in the sense of "people living in Lappland" (in Russian, Finnish and Swedish Lapplands) actually makes sense there.

Finnish should be renamed to Finnic however, since it's going to be including Mordvins, Estonians and Ingerians all.

 

[Calgacus]

I propose Finnic/Finnish for Finnish, Karelian, Estonian and Mordvin and Uralic for Lapps and Samoyed.

I don't like Uralic very much, but I'll go with Lappish (Byakhiam's suggestion) for now.

BTW everyone, if we get rid of Moravians, we have a free tag. I'll mention some contenders just to get started: Sards, Gall-Gaidheal, Guanche, Moravians, Frisians. Let's discuss this.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

Having both Turkic and Turkish culture will never pass...no offense.

 

[Calgacus]

Having both Turkic and Turkish culture will never pass...no offense.

Finellach, none taken. But that topic is over for now. It's gonna be Turkic and Turkish unless I hear a better idea (which I haven't so far).

 

[unmerged(27913)]

Let's not get into this again

Sorry but we must. There is no chance I can accept Turkish and Turkic co-existing on the map...it's ridiculous. Why don't we put German and Germanic as well....hillarious...

Then what happens when the events start fireing then?

Nothing, it won't trigger since the country already is English.
It will trigger correctly for Danish and other provinces if they are still there.

But what about Islamic names?

They are not "islamic" but Arabic/Turkish. Also I found three names that can be characterized as islamic....the chance in getting that name is quite big.

I though you said you test it and nothing bad happened?

There are events that use the none tag.

I do admit three cultures for the Turks is rather excessive. If we can address the name thing, then I'd be happy to see them merged

The names issue is too much emphesized. As I pointed out there are barely two-three names that can be characterized as "islamic"...there are at least 20-25 other names.

1.The difference only exists due to the effects of the introduction of turkic peoples into this region.

Indeed.

2.They where called Volga Finns by the Rus, they didn't really care about any difference between the two peoples. And like I said a bit earlier, it would be easier to lump Finnish. Estonian, Karelian, and Mordvin into one tag, and Lappish and Samoyed into another. A few additional 'Mordvin' names would only to balance out things a bit.

However it is a fact they were called as such and it is also a fact that they belong to Finnish branch of Finno-Ugric languages.

Bohemian I guess, although that does belittle the achievements of the moravians, but there aren't a lot of candidates for a better name.

I say if you are really so keen on uniting the tags....although if you can have Irish and Scottish then you can have Moravian and Bohemian...then name it Moravian since whole region was under Great Moravia.

I don't see how, Welsh and Cornish names where nearly identical other then for some spelling variations every once in a while Breton nobility though used French names.

Not to mention English kings refered to them as "South Welsh" which means they differentiated from Welsh proper very little.

 

[Calgacus]

FInellach, the conversation must move on. We have two Turkic tags only because of naming patterns. Hence names with similar meanings are fine. Honestly, I see the similar names as a good thing given the reason for the two cultures, not as a bad thing.

The decision is final under the conditions I already specified, and I'll give you note now that I'm not going to waste my time talking about it any more unless something new is said.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Uralic sounds weird for a culture in Lappland. Lappish, in the sense of "people living in Lappland" (in Russian, Finnish and Swedish Lapplands) actually makes sense there.

Finnish should be renamed to Finnic however, since it's going to be including Mordvins, Estonians and Ingerians all.

Agreed, I guess Uralic would never work and Lappish is just vague enough to apply to both Lapps and Samoyed.

BTW everyone, if we get rid of Moravians, we have a free tag. I'll mention some contenders just to get started: Sards, Gall-Gaidheal, Guanche, Moravians, Frisians. Let's discuss this.

The Sards would be a nice addition, Manx (Gall-Gaidheal)... really wouldn't cover much other then Man, Guanche? NO, that would mean we'd have to give ever Berber tribe their own culture, Moravian? Maybe, if we can find anything to use for it, Frisian, I guess that could work.

I have also sent OHGamer an e-mail about our 'Turk' problem, if anybody could come up with a solution to this, it would be him

 

[unmerged(21937)]

However it is a fact they were called as such and it is also a fact that they belong to Finnish branch of Finno-Ugric languages.

Being part of Finnic branch of Finno-Ugric languages is like being part of Southern branch of Slavic languages. Proto-Finnic was already divided to the various Finnic groups by 1000 BC.

Actually comparing that kind of difference to this from Wiki's Slavic languages page:

In the opinion of linguists, probably even in the 10th–12th centuries all Slavs spoke generally Common Slavonic: the same language, with very slight differences.

Linguistic differentiation received impetus from the dispersion of the Slavic peoples over large territory - which in Central Europe exceeded the current extent of Slavic-speaking majorities. Written documents of the 9th, 10th and 11th centuries already have some local linguistic features. For example the Freising monuments show a language which contains some phonetic and lexical elements peculiar to Slovenian dialects (e.g. rhotacism, the word krilatec).

it kinda seems "ridiclous" to have Slavics divided to every small subset possible, but with one huge Finnish blob... :wacko:

 

[Calgacus]

Agreed, I guess Uralic would never work and Lappish is just vague enough to apply to both Lapps and Samoyed.

Great.

The Sards would be a nice addition, Manx (Gall-Gaidheal)... really wouldn't cover much other then Man, Guanche? NO, that would mean we'd have to give ever Berber tribe their own culture, Moravian? Maybe, if we can find anything to use for it, Frisian, I guess that could work.

Gall-Gaidheal do not equal Manx, they are the Gaelic-speaking descendents of Viking who inhabited Galloway, Dublin, the Isles, parts of Argyll and Cumberland-Westmorland.

Guanche? NO, that would mean we'd have to give ever Berber tribe their own culture,

I hardly think so. Berber connection is just a theory based on a few words pertaining to only one of the island-chain's many languages. The connection, if there actually was one, could be as vague as Tocharian to English.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Single province culture in a pagan province about as reclused as Iceland isn't exactly gameplay priority though imo.

 

[Calgacus]

Single province culture in a pagan province about as reclused as Iceland isn't exactly gameplay priority though imo.

I kinda agree, but only, of course, given the scarcity of tags.

I'm assigning the spare tag to the Sards.

I think the initial review of Finellach's cultures is now over, I'll start editing the 3 maps, and we can spend the most of the rest of the thread discussing cultural borders. The tags and cultures used will be those on the 2nd post of this thread.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

I kinda agree, but only, of course, given the scarcity of tags.

If there would be enough tags, I'd argue for separate Sámi, Permic, Samoyedic and Mordvin cultures at least.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Sorry but we must. There is no chance I can accept Turkish and Turkic co-existing on the map...it's ridiculous. Why don't we put German and Germanic as well....hillarious...

Indeed, I am confident though, a better name exists.

Nothing, it won't trigger since the country already is English.
It will trigger correctly for Danish and other provinces if they are still there.

Didn't know that, thanks

They are not "islamic" but Arabic/Turkish. Also I found three names that can be characterized as islamic....the chance in getting that name is quite big.

I'm not on my home computer so I can't look through the name list but the following names are 'Islamic':

Adem, Ahmet, Ayse, Banu (Persian), anything with 'Gul' at the beginning of the name (Persian), Hava, Ibrahim, Iskender (Alexander), Mehmed, Mehmet, Melek, Meryem, Musa, Nilufer (Persian), Omer, Osman, Selim, Suleyman, Usman, Yusuf, Zeki

There are events that use the none tag.

I'm willing to look through all of them and change them to something more appropriate, even if it takes days.... I have a lot of free time on my hands.

Indeed.

But the difference hadn't arisen yet.

However it is a fact they were called as such and it is also a fact that they belong to Finnish branch of Finno-Ugric languages.

Indeed but Spanish and Catalan are both Iberian Romance languages but they both have unique names.

I say if you are really so keen on uniting the tags....although if you can have Irish and Scottish then you can have Moravian and Bohemian...then name it Moravian since whole region was under Great Moravia.

Naming Bohemian Moravian is a possibility but wait until we see our tag situation, we don't HAVE to merge the two.

 

[Mad King James]

Low Germanic culture division.