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unmerged(6777)

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Per Finellach's request, thread moved and re-opened.

I've re-named the title as well, but let me know via PM if you would prefer a different working title for your mod.
 

Semi-Lobster

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I personally thought your joke was very funny MrT! :D

I guess some people get so wrapped up into things, they forget how to get loose! :) Like me! Who is geting loose by researching Mordvins while drinking some (or in my case, wholly to much) fine India Pale Ale and yelling at Jeopardy! :D

Does the move mean there is now absolutely no chance of this even being partially integrated?
 
Last edited:

unmerged(21937)

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Semi-Lobster said:
Does the move mean there is now absolutely no chance of this even being partially integrated?

I'm saying this based on gut feeling and speculation, not on knowledge.

I think there is still a chance that it might get integrated, just most likely smaller. As MrT said earlier in this thread, the end product of your work would most likely be just a great mod instead of official add-on, but if it's great enough mod, it just might convince Johan to allow it be integrated.

I feel the main reason for this move was that MrT didn't want to read stuff like that which caused this move. Now that you are "out-of-sight" here, instead of in Public Beta area, he most likely won't be reading this that often (or at all).

Then as a reminder, when moderator moderates, he always means what he says, so do read it.
 

unmerged(27913)

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Olaus Petrus said:
You seem to know a lot about cultural lines in Balkans, only thing I know that cultural line between Croats and Serbs go somewhere in Bosnia-Herzegovina. I trust that you can draw the cultural line correctly. :cool:

Years of being influenced by various biased media's I decided to look for myself what is the truth and the real situation. I am always guided by the quote in EU2 by Napoleon - to paraphrase it "to write history one must be more than a man, he must be deprived of vanity or any other alterior motive". I too guide myself with that as much as posibble. Of coure I am just a human being and so I make mistakes. So I ask for others to help and guide me in this as well because as they say two heads think better than one. ;)

Anyway the cultural line changed dramatically over the centuries and so judging by todays situation would be extremly wrong. We must look at things as they were not as they are.

Btw. I thank Mr.T once again that he allowed this thread to continue. I hope I will succeed what I imagined.
 

unmerged(1047)

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I'd just like to point out - although MrT and others were quite vague with their comments and may not have been reffering to me - that I was in no way being nationalist about my call for Breton culture; just trying to correct what I see as an illogical disparity between CK and EU2.

In fact, I've tried to keep a policy of avoiding discussions of my own (multiple) nationality-origin areas, (being an American of mixed European descents, that is actually rather difficult). If anyone is interested, my ancestry is West Country English, Irish, Alsatian, Norwegian and Provencal. (Along with a bit of Native American too... well mixed, as my Mom says.)
 

Olaus Petrus

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Bretagne is interesting Duchy, because it had it's own celtic culture, but in 10th century French influence in area grew. Dukes of Bretagne are beacause of marriages and other things Frankish. French influence can be seen in culture and religion. IMHO because Bretons originally came from Wales and South-Wales (Cornwall) we could use Welsh culture. (Yes, I know there are differences between Welsh and Bretons but still.) Rulers of the area should remain Frankish.
 

unmerged(27913)

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Welsh and Breton are two separate cutlures. Since we have a free celtic tag I don't see why should they be made separate.

Btw. thinking about Johan and Mr.T's words I have come to think that the smaller and simpler this mod is there is a greater chance of being better and in the end being proposed to get into the official mod. So I've come to tne next conclusions:

Some cultures I've at first planned to include need to abandoned. And these are:
Kurdish - they are too similar to Persians and in fact Kurds are Persian(Iranian) tribe and will thus be represented by Persian tag.

Albanian - although mentioned in 1081 as bein rebels in 1041 their similiraty with the Greeks in that early period is really too great. I mean their rulers had Greek names and the culture of areas of present day Albanians was undoubtably Greek.

Slovak - this tag and people could fit just fine within Bohemian tag. Now I now some will say they don't like that but the fact is:
1. Slovaks spoke the same language as Bohemians
2. If we make Slovaks separate in 1066 we also need to make Moravians separate
3. Slovak is a generic word for Slavs coming from Hungarian 'Szlavok' which was designation for all Slavs including Croats in Slavonia and Croatia. It is my opinion that if Slovaks weren't under Hungarian rule they would most likely be part of modern Czech or Polish nation.

Berber or Moorish - these people spoke Arabic, had Arabic culture and Arabic names. To divide it would be extremly difficult and so it will remain within Arab tag

Carantanians/Slovenes - too small tag for something that could fit fine within Wendish tag as Germans called Slovenes Wends as they did to northern western slavic tribes(Polabians, Sorbs, Abodrites, Pomeranians, etc)

The cultures that will be added are:
Wendish(Mecklemburg, Pomerania, Brandenburg, Meissen, Krain, Karnten) - Western Slavic tag
Vlach/Romanian(Wallachia, Transylvania and Temes) - Iberian tag - I decided to use Iberian tag to represent their Romance latin origin. Some will find it strange but I think it is the best this way.
Croatian(Croatia, Slavonia, Bosnia) - South Slavic tag
Serbian(Serbia Bosnia, Belgrade, Vidin) - Eastern Slavic tag
Bulgarian(Dorostotum, Varna, Strymon, Ochrid, Philipos) - Byzantine tag - in absence of Slavic tags I decided that best would be Byznatine tag. After all Bulgarians were part of Byzantium very long and this way we could emphasize their rather non-slavic origins.
Breton(Brittany) - Celtic tag
Ugric(Estonia and Livonia, Northern Russia and Cheremisa) - Ugric Baltic

I am still thinking wheter to add Bolgars or to just put the under the Turkish tag which would be easier IMO rather than to add another tag for three-province-culture and a culture that we hardly know anything about really even today.

As you can see no culture was removed. I only added new ones.
 

Earl Uhtred

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Though Berber and Arab cultures were intimately linked, they were fairly distinct and sometimes hostile and I think separation is fair.

At least give us a 'Moorish' culture with its own name-list for the west.
 

Semi-Lobster

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Yes, Berber language is different from Arabic and there's always been a long history of hostility towards each other.

Wikipedia said:
Berbers and the Islamic invasion
Unlike the invasions of previous religions and cultures, the coming of Islam, which was spread by Arabs, was to have pervasive and long-lasting effects on the Maghrib. The new faith, in its various forms, would penetrate nearly all segments of society, bringing with it armies, learned men, and fervent mystics, and in large part replacing tribal practices and loyalties with new social norms and political idioms.

Nonetheless, the Islamization and Arabization of the region were complicated and lengthy processes. Whereas nomadic Berbers were quick to convert and assist the Arab invaders, not until the twelfth century under the Almohad Dynasty did the Christian and Jewish communities become totally marginalized.

The first Arab military expeditions into the Maghrib, between 642 and 669, resulted in the spread of Islam. These early forays from a base in Egypt occurred under local initiative rather than under orders from the central caliphate. When the seat of the caliphate moved from Medina to Damascus, however, the Umayyads (a Muslim dynasty ruling from 661 to 750) recognized that the strategic necessity of dominating the Mediterranean dictated a concerted military effort on the North African front. In 670, therefore, an Arab army under Uqba ibn Nafi established the town of Al Qayrawan about 160 kilometers south of present-day Tunis and used it as a base for further operations.

Abu al Muhajir Dinar, Uqba's successor, pushed westward into Algeria and eventually worked out a modus vivendi with Kusayla, the ruler of an extensive confederation of Christian Berbers. Kusayla, who had been based in Tilimsan (Tlemcen), became a Muslim and moved his headquarters to Takirwan, near Al Qayrawan.

This harmony was short-lived, however. Arab and Berber forces controlled the region in turn until 697. By 711 Umayyad forces helped by Berber converts to Islam had conquered all of North Africa. Governors appointed by the Umayyad caliphs ruled from Al Qayrawan, capital the new wilaya (province) of Ifriqiya, which covered Tripolitania (the western part of present-day Libya), Tunisia, and eastern Algeria.

Paradoxically, the spread of Islam among the Berbers did not guarantee their support for the Arab-dominated caliphate. The ruling Arabs alienated the Berbers by taxing them heavily; treating converts as second-class Muslims; and, at worst, by enslaving them. As a result, widespread opposition took the form of open revolt in 739-40 under the banner of Kharijite Islam. The Kharijites objected to Ali, the fourth caliph, making peace with the Umayyads in 657 and left Ali's camp (khariji means "those who leave"). The Kharijites had been fighting Umayyad rule in the East, and many Berbers were attracted by the sect's egalitarian precepts. For example, according to Kharijism, any suitable Muslim candidate could be elected caliph without regard to race, station, or descent from the Prophet Muhammad.

After the revolt, Kharijites established a number of theocratic tribal kingdoms, most of which had short and troubled histories. Others, however, like Sijilmasa and Tilimsan, which straddled the principal trade routes, proved more viable and prospered. In 750 the Abbasids, who succeeded the Umayyads as Muslim rulers, moved the caliphate to Baghdad and reestablished caliphal authority in Ifriqiya, appointing Ibrahim ibn al Aghlab as governor in Al Qayrawan. Although nominally serving at the caliph's pleasure, Al Aghlab and his successors, the Aghlabids, ruled independently until 909, presiding over a court that became a center for learning and culture.

Just to the west of Aghlabid lands, Abd ar Rahman ibn Rustam ruled most of the central Maghrib from Tahert, southwest of Algiers. The rulers of the Rustamid imamate, which lasted from 761 to 909, each an Ibadi Kharijite imam, were elected by leading citizens. The imams gained a reputation for honesty, piety, and justice. The court at Tahert was noted for its support of scholarship in mathematics, astronomy, and astrology, as well as theology and law. The Rustamid imams, however, failed, by choice or by neglect, to organize a reliable standing army. This important factor, accompanied by the dynasty's eventual collapse into decadence, opened the way for Tahert's demise under the assault of the Fatimids.

Also note that different cultures affect tech spread and I don't think it's a good idea for Berbers and Arabs to have the same tech
 

Andrzej I

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From what I know, the Danish, Norwegian, and Sweedish people all spoke Old Norse, and they probably had similar traditions. And, again, from what I know, culture in CK can be largely based on language. So, I'd appriciate knowing why this modification plans to keep these cultures separate. Well, thanks in advance :) .
 

Olaus Petrus

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Originally Posted by Finellach
Welsh and Breton are two separate cutlures. Since we have a free celtic tag I don't see why should they be made separate.

Sorry, I didn't notice that there were free celtic tag.
 

unmerged(27913)

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Semi-Lobster said:
Yes, Berber language is different from Arabic and there's always been a long history of hostility towards each other.

Also note that different cultures affect tech spread and I don't think it's a good idea for Berbers and Arabs to have the same tech

Well to separate them would be extremly difficult. Perhaps I should just mode it based on Solmyr's bugfix since he already did the separation with the same(Abghazian) tag.

Earl Uhtred said:
At least give us a 'Moorish' culture with its own name-list for the west.

How many times need I repeat? Moorish is a name for Arab and Berber Muslim invaders into Visigothic Spain and into Frankish Empire(France). They were not a distinct culture.
 

unmerged(27913)

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Semi-Lobster said:
Solmyr's 1066 bugfix represents the Berbers very well, if you ask him I'm sure you can cooperate on it.

I will. I planned to ask his permission to use it since I want to make two version. One for original non-mod CK and one with his bufix mod for those who want to use both....like me. :)
 

Semi-Lobster

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I was going to suggest that. :D Paradox is going to be given a more stripped down version of what we've compiled which is all well and good considering the scale of what we are doing but I would like to see this carried over later for a future mod of some sort where everything goes into a bit more detail. Then we can come up with a snappy acronym like the other mods ;)

Also, I'm reassured by MrT's dedication to Crusader Kings and the Beta patches :) , sometimes suggestions like these are simply thrown out as something that 'a mod can do'
 

yourworstnightm

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Andrzej I said:
From what I know, the Danish, Norwegian, and Sweedish people all spoke Old Norse, and they probably had similar traditions. And, again, from what I know, culture in CK can be largely based on language. So, I'd appriciate knowing why this modification plans to keep these cultures separate. Well, thanks in advance :) .

Something I have been nagging about a long time, there were no different norwegian, swedish and danish cultures yet. Sure there were a differnce huge differnce between people in northern Sweden and people on Sjaelland, but it had nothing to do with politcal borders. Norwegian and swedish people who lived near the borders had more things in common than people in the same kingdom who lived far away from it, and they probably even saw eachother as the same, even if there were a border between them, when they again did not see people who lived in the same kingdom, but far awy from them as the saem.

There was not really a separate swedish, danish or norwegian langauge in 1066 neither. People spoke different dialects in different parts of scandinavia, which later became nationa languages. And south swedes probably identified themselves as götar (göts) in 1066, as well as people on Jutland probably identified rhemselves as jutes, not danes.

my point is if Scandinavia is split up in separate cultures (which truly is a nationalist's wet dream by the way) german culture and rus culture should be further split up as well, since there were much clearer differnces between people in different parts of Russia and Germany than between people in Scandinvia.
 

unmerged(27913)

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The thing with uniting the Norse culture is that it's just too complicated. Add to that further division of Germans in the South and you have a mess. That would be an extremly complicated job for developers not to mention me who is just an amateur.

You will have to go to Paradox and ask them, not me. ;)
 

Earl Uhtred

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Finellach said:
How many times need I repeat? Moorish is a name for Arab and Berber Muslim invaders into Visigothic Spain and into Frankish Empire(France). They were not a distinct culture.

Pfff, have it your way. I could argue it's as valid a division as any in CK but past experience suggests there's no point.
 

Semi-Lobster

Tàishǒu of Rìnán Commandery
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Earl Uhtred said:
Pfff, have it your way. I could argue it's as valid a division as any in CK but past experience suggests there's no point.

Please continue Earl, if you you can find historical sources to support a seperate Moorish culture, then by all means argue your case! The last thing we need are porposals being shot down before they're even elaborated on!
 

unmerged(27913)

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Apr 16, 2004
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I've already petitioned for that more than once and even in this thread but Johan and other devs definately dismissed it. I can't do nothing about nor do I really find that important anyway....