Grand Culture Mod : (Cultures I'd like to see instated)

[unmerged(27913)]

----Ok, but later. Now i don't have time. I should say i have experience to make mods for CK. My mod was introduced in Snowball(partner of Paradox in Russia) forums and after some updates it was recognized as relatively hictorically accurate (mostly Eastern Europe and Byzantium were modded).

Ok, I'd really appreciate if you could send me the list of updates when you have time by PM. It would really be great.

----Votyaki? Not in game? I have original english version of CK and there is Votyaki province...

It's Votyaki godamnit....you made me look for a half an hour trying to find Voytaki....:rofl:

----But Khazars were also turkic origin! Now they do not exist. Avars? You mean avars of 6-8 centuries? But they also were partly turkic, partly ugric. Also i should say that mongols in 11 century do not simply exists as separate MONGOLIC ethnos. Mongols appeared on foundation of some altaic tribes in 12 century.

Turkic or Mongol it's the same thing.

----Yes, they were. But does it mean that they were very different peoples? Most historians thinks that not. In that times slavs had early phase of ethnogenesis, and they were not differentiated. Of course they were different tribes but in "culture" terms they were similar. And in 11 century their similarity AFAIK was kept

Actually incorrect. They were very dfferent....so different that Byznatine and Frankish sources made clear distinction between them...especially Byznatine sources who had extensive contacts with both. And no most historian don't think such thing....find me a one, just one who claims Croats and Serbs are one people and I'll pay a million bucks.

----In which sources?

There are accounts by daughter of Byznatine Emperor Anna Comnenas about troubles in region of Epirus and present day Albania during the time of her father Alexius. We also have records from Byznatine historian Michael Attaliates about Albanois as subjects of the Duke of Dyrrachion as they rebelled against Constantinopole in 1041.

----We, Russians ( ), did not call them tatars in 11 century, we called them "volzhskiye bulgary". Russians begin to call them tatars only after some centuries after they were conquered by tatars-mongols. In 13 an 14 centuries bolgars were called mostly bolgars. They "became" tatars in 15-16 centuries.

Now you say you didn't call them and then that you did....you are contradicting yourself in the same line....amazing.

Thanks to my Wend thread in the history forum and Karl Martell's excellent map, I'd suggest Altmark and Anhalt Wendish. Not because there where tons of Wends there, but because there where very, very few germans there yet. They where still in the process of migrating to those areas.

Noted. Thank you.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Should the Isle of Man really be Norwegian? I mean, yes, the Norsemen had dominated the island for quiet sometime, but I'm finding little evidence that the actual people on the Island took up speaking Norwegian and adopting their way of life. Then again I could be wrong. Does anybody have more info on the island?

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Rename "finnish" to "ugric" and make it a mix of finnish, lappish and other fenno-ugric names and it will look less bad. Claiming the Sami being finns is wrong, but claiming them both being urgic is right. As they both are generally "unplayable" cultures, it's not a big loss. Though similiar generalization could be used on some other "similiar" areas (like Finellach already pointed out Pechenegs -> Cumans and possibly some mergers in the Baltic pagan tribes).

Biggest problem with cultures are the sprites. You have just one or two "east slavic" looking sprites unused, while you have both "norse" and "iberian" looking culture free, while neither areas don't really need that much new cultures. Also teutonic, templar and hospitaler tags are practically unusable for the sprite reason.

Just keep in mind that don't use mongol tag to represent anyone, but the mongols themselves. It is a special culture and we really don't need any mongol rulers around before we get the Hordes.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

I am wondering...can one change the appearance of certain tag sprites? Like for example if I want to use the Abghazian tag and I want to use it for Wends for example and so I'd like it to look like Western Slavic sprite....could I achieve this by replacng or if not present putting the separate Abghazian sprites? Mr.T?

If that could be done then we would virtually have no problem and the issue with Finns and Lapps will solved....as I'd like nothing more than to have separate Finnish, Lappish and Ugric(Estonian, Livonian, Mordvin, etc) tags. Would that be ok?

 

[unmerged(1047)]

MrT, Johan, etcetera...

Although I respect your decision (however temporary or permanent that decision may be) to avoid the Balkan cultural forestorm by stating that no changes will be made, I'd like to appeal that decision in one particular case (outside of the Balkans).

I think a clear case can be made in favor of changing the six provinces of Brittany to a new Breton culture. Note the following facts:

- These six provinces are not part of any kingdom, and historically were not governed by an outside power during the period. A unique culture might help convince the human and AI players to stay away from it just as they did in reality. (At present it is invaded far too often.)

- There are some free culture tags, so no cannibalizing of existing cultures would be necessary. One of these, "Celtic", already uses the same sprites as Irish, Scottish and Welsh, which would accurately represent its cultural heritage. A similar process was already used to use "Latin" for Occitan.

- The Brittany area is currently - very erroneously - labeled as "frankish" (and thus in line with France), despite the fact that in EU2 it is "gaelic" (along with Ireland, Scotland and Wales). Certainly it should have the same culture in both games, since there is no evidence of a major historical shift within the game time periods. This is an important distinction, because no other proposed culture change in this thread would cause the culture to match with that in EU2; in fact, most of them would pull the status quo away from such matches. In short, such a change would be correcting a discrepancy which currently exists (without explanation) between the two games.

I will defer to your research as far as the culture of the nobility - it is possible that the provinces, while of Breton culture, did not have Breton rulers. I have no research to suggest in either direction, as I am not an expert in the period. Assuming, however, that we were simply changing the cultures of the provinces, and *not* of the nobility, the necessary changes could be made in a matter of a few minutes, with a few more to add in a character name list. (I did the province changes on my own in a previous patch, and it took less than ten minutes to find and edit the relevant provinces.)

 

[Zebedee]

Should the Isle of Man really be Norwegian? I mean, yes, the Norsemen had dominated the island for quiet sometime, but I'm finding little evidence that the actual people on the Island took up speaking Norwegian and adopting their way of life. Then again I could be wrong. Does anybody have more info on the island?

This is the seminal work on Mann history:

http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/fulltext/hist1900/index.htm

A new history is due out (at some point..) from the Centre of Manx Studies which ought to present the latest research.

http://dbweb.liv.ac.uk/manninagh/

IMHO I'd leave it as Norwegian. The influence was strong enough to justify it (especially upon the language).

 

[unmerged(21937)]

I am wondering...can one change the appearance of certain tag sprites? Like for example if I want to use the Abghazian tag and I want to use it for Wends for example and so I'd like it to look like Western Slavic sprite....could I achieve this by replacng or if not present putting the separate Abghazian sprites? Mr.T?

If that could be done then we would virtually have no problem and the issue with Finns and Lapps will solved....as I'd like nothing more than to have separate Finnish, Lappish and Ugric(Estonian, Livonian, Mordvin, etc) tags. Would that be ok?

I think (don't know for sure) that each culture tag has certain sprite attached to it in the exe. Each culture does not have unique sprite however, but instead for example Bohemian and Polish both use Western Slavic sprite. And for example Abghazian and Turkish both use Turkish sprite, so you can't change what sprite Abghazian uses without exe changes, unless you change all Turkish using cultures to use western slavic sprite. Same with portraits.

Also I'm certain new culture tags are out of the question, as has been apparent in this thread before.

 

[Olaus Petrus]

Originally Posted by Byakhiam
Rename "finnish" to "ugric" and make it a mix of finnish, lappish and other fenno-ugric names and it will look less bad. Claiming the Sami being finns is wrong, but claiming them both being urgic is right. As they both are generally "unplayable" cultures, it's not a big loss. Though similiar generalization could be used on some other "similiar" areas (like Finellach already pointed out Pechenegs -> Cumans and possibly some mergers in the Baltic pagan tribes).

Well, that's an acceptable solution. Finns, Estonians and Lappish are all already Ugric in EU2, so creating same situation to CK won't be problematic. One thing to keep in mind is that cultures should be convertable to EU2 cultures.

Originally Posted by Sheridan
Although I respect your decision (however temporary or permanent that decision may be) to avoid the Balkan cultural forestorm by stating that no changes will be made, I'd like to appeal that decision in one particular case (outside of the Balkans).

I was thinking which culture should Bosnia have, Serb or Croat. No matter which culture you give it, other will surely be insulted. So I too understand why Paradox hasn't been willing to create separate Serb and Croat cultures.

 

[Hogar]

I was thinking which culture should Bosnia have, Serb or Croat. No matter which culture you give it, other will surely be insulted. So I too understand why Paradox hasn't been willing to create separate Serb and Croat cultures.

I doubt bosnians would mind the division suggested here. I think the development of the bosnian nation starts after the period this games covers. I far as I know culturally (names, customs, etc) at the time bsonians were mix of Serb/Croat cultures. I think others will confirm this...
I think you are still looking for the case to support grouping all south slavs into one happy family...

 

[unmerged(6777)]

My suggestion:

• Remap all provinces to have the "generic_unhappy_people" culture
• Remap all characters to have culture = "evöl_overlord"

Then everyone will be pretty much satisfied.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

This is the seminal work on Mann history:

http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/fulltext/hist1900/index.htm

A new history is due out (at some point..) from the Centre of Manx Studies which ought to present the latest research.

http://dbweb.liv.ac.uk/manninagh/

IMHO I'd leave it as Norwegian. The influence was strong enough to justify it (especially upon the language).

Thanks Zebedee! Very indepth links! You've convinced me that Norwegian is very appropriate for the Isle of Man Was it also the same for the Western Isles to?

 

[Earl Uhtred]

If 'culture' in CK means the culture of the movers and shakers, and Iberia suggests it does, Norwegian definitely suits Man in 1066. I'd love it if 'Norse' culture was set aside for the insular Norse ('Galwegians'?) who could do with their own name-list. That culture only eclipses towards the end of the period.

I also support a Breton culture though perhaps only in the west.

 

[Zebedee]

Although it does cause some slight errors in the spelling of names, I'd have Bretons in with the Welsh culture. Modern Breton is still a hybrid language which is readibly understandable if you speak both French and a Brythonic tongue. Taking onboard that the revival of the Breton tongue was due to the mass migration in C6th from Dumnonia then it's not too ahistoric and looking at the rest of the thread, it would seem that any 'spare' tags should be used for cultures which really need them.

re. Western Isles, will check it up when I have a little more free time. I'm P-Celtic orientated so Q-Celtic is not something I have researched much into in the past.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

I'd love it if 'Norse' culture was set aside for the insular Norse ('Galwegians'?) who could do with their own name-list. That culture only eclipses towards the end of the period.

That is posibble since we do have free 'Norse' tag. We could edit it to represent 'Galwegians' as we did with 'Celtic' tag converting it to Breton.
BUt this leave us with what the hell is Galwegian?

I know they were "gaelicized" Norsemen, but do they really deserve a separate tag? And where would they be present...except Galoway of course...

I also support a Breton culture though perhaps only in the west.

Bretons were present in whole Brittany in 1066.

I was thinking which culture should Bosnia have, Serb or Croat. No matter which culture you give it, other will surely be insulted. So I too understand why Paradox hasn't been willing to create separate Serb and Croat cultures.

I don't see why would anyone be insulted....unless you mean the idiot nationalists? We have clear historic proofs that Bosnia was mainly Catholic and Croatian. Turkish travellers noted that people living in Bosnia were calling themselves by the name of the river that is flowing there(River Bosnia) and that they are a Croat tribe. So in short Rama should be Croatian as this is the core Bosnian province while Hum should be Serbian. Usora should also be part of Bosnia. Zachumlje should is though on the wrong position as Zahumlje and Hum are actually the same thing, but this way it is maybe good since Zahumlje could represent western Herzegovina which was always mainly Croatian and Hum which was always a Serbian county/principality.

 

[unmerged(16588)]

I think there might be a problem using celtic and norse tags. When I first got the game and was making an ASB mod, I used the norse tag, and was ending up not only with Zognar and Phexipotex of Rigel 7, but also Knut and Sigurd of Rigel 7 as well. I think Norse is (or was) some sort of meta-tag that uses norwegian, dutch, and swedish names. I imagine celtic may (have) be(en) the same.

I the used Basque and had no problems. I haven't tried since v. 1.01 though, so who knows.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

I think there might be a problem using celtic and norse tags. When I first got the game and was making an ASB mod, I used the norse tag, and was ending up not only with Zognar and Phexipotex of Rigel 7, but also Knut and Sigurd of Rigel 7 as well.

What the hell are you talking about? :rofl:

I think Norse is (or was) some sort of meta-tag that uses norwegian, dutch, and swedish names. I imagine celtic may (have) be(en) the same.

It does not. Unless you put the names in the character names file you will get the name like 'unnamed pup'...or something similar.

I the used Basque and had no problems. I haven't tried since v. 1.01 though, so who knows.

I don't know what you "used", but it certainly wasn't the "Norse tag"... :rofl:

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Norse is the culture given to the mercenaries you get from the Varangian Guard. Celtic and Iberian aren't even used for that!

 

[Olaus Petrus]

Originally Posted by Hogar
I think you are still looking for the case to support grouping all south slavs into one happy family...

No, It's okay to me create Serbian and Croatian cultures, I was just wondering how Bosnia should be treated.

Originally Posted by Finellach
I don't see why would anyone be insulted....unless you mean the idiot nationalists? We have clear historic proofs that Bosnia was mainly Catholic and Croatian. Turkish travellers noted that people living in Bosnia were calling themselves by the name of the river that is flowing there(River Bosnia) and that they are a Croat tribe. So in short Rama should be Croatian as this is the core Bosnian province while Hum should be Serbian. Usora should also be part of Bosnia. Zachumlje should is though on the wrong position as Zahumlje and Hum are actually the same thing, but this way it is maybe good since Zahumlje could represent western Herzegovina which was always mainly Croatian and Hum which was always a Serbian county/principality.

Yeah, I meant those people who have strong nationalistic feelings, Bosnia AFAIK is today problematic area, because people can't live together. But that shouldn't affect how cultures are treated, because all we want is as historical situation as possible. You seem to know a lot about cultural lines in Balkans, only thing I know that cultural line between Croats and Serbs go somewhere in Bosnia-Herzegovina. I trust that you can draw the cultural line correctly.

 

[Mishko]

My suggestion:

• Remap all provinces to have the "generic_unhappy_people" culture
• Remap all characters to have culture = "evöl_overlord"

Then everyone will be pretty much satisfied.

I can't be satisfied while the "forums overlords" are patronising us like this. We are not a bunch of 14-year olds trying to prove that our country was bigger than the country next door. If Paradox is concerned about being politically correct, then they should come out and say it, everyone will understand. If they think that changing the cultures would be too much work, then they should come out and say that, and, again, everyone would understand. Making sarcastic remarks does NOT help.

As far as Finellach's work is concerned, I think he has been extremely objective. Since he's a Croat, and I'm a Serb, I think that should tell you something. The game has a lot to gain if you listen to his suggestions. If you decide to do otherwise, at least treat him with respect. He invested his own time to make YOUR product better.
Cheers,
Milos

 

[unmerged(6777)]

I can't be satisfied while the "forums overlords" are patronising us like this. We are not a bunch of 14-year olds trying to prove that our country was bigger than the country next door. If Paradox is concerned about being politically correct, then they should come out and say it, everyone will understand. If they think that changing the cultures would be too much work, then they should come out and say that, and, again, everyone would understand. Making sarcastic remarks does NOT help.

As far as Finellach's work is concerned, I think he has been extremely objective. Since he's a Croat, and I'm a Serb, I think that should tell you something. The game has a lot to gain if you listen to his suggestions. If you decide to do otherwise, at least treat him with respect. He invested his own time to make YOUR product better.
Cheers,
Milos

As indicated by the emoticon that I used, my post was intended as a little bit of humour. If I had wanted to be sarcastic then I would have posted something entirely different, and I would have used the or :wacko: emoticon instead.

Read back and read through this thread and then tell me just how unsupportive and patronising I'm being. Read the posts where I outline the issues from a PI perspective, and then read the one where I indicate that in spite of Johan's expressed statement I am willing to go to bat for you guys if you complete the project and have a really great end result. Too bad. Your post has now made me utterly disinclined to do so.

So...I'm a patronising forum overlord am I? Then I guess I should begin to act the part...

[Moderator Mode]

Johan has stated categorically that there will be no culture changes made to the official CK patch. This thread is therefore OT for the CK public beta forum. The subject is closed and we will permit no further discussion of changes to culture in the public beta forum.

Thread closed.

You should also have a look at the Forum Rules.

You will not argue with, comment on or question the actions/authority of the Paradox staff (Administrators, Moderators, etc.) in a public forum. Should you wish to do so you are directed to contact the Paradox staff via PM (the private messaging system - see “Violations and Penalties” below).

If you have a problem with my actions then PM me or contact an admin. You risk a ban for questioning it in public.

[/Moderator Mode]

Oh...by the way...it's not MY product. I am an unpaid volunteer who donates his time and effort to working on the beta patches and moderating the forums. I am not an employee or representative of Paradox beyond my function on their forums. I invest MY time to make the product more enjoyable for all and, as a side-effect, a better product for Paradox.



Out of consideration for the other people who have been participating in this thread, I will give Finellach the choice of whether he would like this thread moved to the CK Scenario & Modifications forum and re-opened; or whether he would prefer to start a new one. He may PM me with his decision.