Grand Culture Mod : (Cultures I'd like to see instated)

[Semi-Lobster]

Napoli isn't just Napoli, just read up on the historty of the bustling trade city of Amalfi on the prevous page. Salerno hadn't been under Greek control for 400 years, it was ruled by Italian Lombards.

The Carantanian provinces would be Steiermark, Karnten and Krain.

Finellach is Coratian himself and managed to produce An accurate map of the region himself. Just look at the previous gmc map for a more accurate Balkan and Oc layout.

 

[unmerged(42906)]

Yeah, Finellach is Croat... which means that he probably favours the Greater Croatia solution.

It's hard to find objective historical population data in the balkans.

I have done some checking and now agree with you on Napoli (optimally it would be split of course).

//Edit: can't see what you mean with Occitan being wrong... my borders are identical to Finnelach's last maps? (Or did I miss one?)

//Edit2: revised comment (came across wrong apparently)

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Yeah, Finellach is Croat... which means that he favours the Greater Croatia solution. There is no objective truth in the balkans.

Wow, what a bias and frankly, awful thing to say. So basically what you're saying is there's not much thing as an objective person in all of the Blakans and every single man, woman and child is a nationalist sociopath? The war did end years ago and because of the way this mod works with many people contributing to the map with their own information and sources, including the Balkans

 

[unmerged(42906)]

No, I mean that if you ask a Croat and a Serb what the borders were, you get two different answers. Please don't start with nationalism!

I can't find any non-Croat or non-Serb sources which are not influenced by/favouring one of the two factions (Russians seem to favour Serbs, Austrians Croats).

Map updated.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

No, I mean that if you ask a Croat and a Serb what the borders were, you get two different answers. Please don't start with nationalism!

I can't find any non-Croat or non-Serb sources which are not influenced by/favouring one of the two factions (Russians seem to favour Serbs, Austrians Croats).

Map updated.

Finding non-bas sources especially te Balkans is indeed, a headache! Even Finellach complains it's nearly impossible to find unbiased sources. That's generally why I stay away from it. But there's been a lot of input by other peoples with many sources and we try to balance out these sources and try to find any consensus on the issue

 

[unmerged(27913)]

I like a lot about it. Nice to see some Vlachs in Greece!

I think you may know already my opinion on a few things: including Sicily; including that I'd opt for Gaelic in Dublin, Cumberland (or Welsh), Galloway and the Isles; and, you also know my opinion on the Sards and the Canaries (the beauty of more general tags is that it frees up tags for obscure, but distinct cultures ).

Well if we would make this maps I would make Cumbria and posibbly Westmoreland Welsh. However it is my opinion that Carrick and Galloway should be Norse as they were, however they were adopting galiec name and language but they were still Norse which was recongized even by their Galiec neighbours....same for Isle of Man. Also Dublin would perhpas be acceppatable as Gaelic as it really encompasses much greater area than the the city and the small strip of coast placed with Norsemen.

Btw. I don't rememeber your suggestions for Sardinia and Canaries....

I'd ask why Norman remains though?

Beacause they were a separate specific culture. I was thinking about making them Franksih as well in this generalisation but that would give them names like Henri, Eduard, etc....no William. So you see it would ridiculous.

Oh yeah: are you comfortable with the Catalans? The poem of the Cid, after all, calls them Franks; although, to the Franks they were prolly Iberians.

The issue with Catalans is rather conroversive as they and Occitan were rather closely related....linguistically. It goes so to such lenghts that some claim it's the same culture. Thats why Catalans are best as Spanish/Iberians.

I'm not sure about Baltic .. the name just sounds too artificial, although the merger is prolly justified. I'd just miss the Lithuanians. It wouldn't be totally accurate, but would you consider dividing Baltic into Prussian and Lithuanian? This would represent the two linguistic poles of the Balts, whilst preserving the two most important groups. Alternatively, at the very least, rename "Baltic" "Balt"?

All Balts were very much the same people in 1066, they spoke similar languages and the only difference was that they were divided in various tribes: Lithuanins, Letts, Cours, Prussians, etc...

 

[unmerged(27913)]

The MODs totally ruined...

Nothing is ruined....don't be so pesimistic. This is just a test so the people's reaction on such culture setup. The original mod is going on as planned. However i might make one later with such general cultures so I am testing the reaction of the public. Funny though...

A nightmare

You could also go for just 3 cultures. Just like there are only 3 religions (4 if you include jewish).

:rofl:

 

[unmerged(27913)]

Woah woah woah! We don't want to go overboard with merging cultures here! f

It's just a test.

1: We can't and shouldn't merge cultures that have different names like really Carantainian, Serb, Croatian DALMATIAN!?! The naming system would be ridiculous!

Actually it would that bad....we would "cook" something up.

2: They should be relatively close, combing Oc and Frankish, who linguistically, come from different branches of the Romance language family.

Yes but Frankish does not stands here in this map for French, it stands for people of the 'Kingdom of France'.

3. Be consistent, merging Gaelic but retaining a separating Welsh and Breton is a bit... odd.

I don't see why since Gaelic is separate from Brythonic languages such as Welsh(and Cornish/Southern Welsh).

Spanish: A unified Spanish never existed. in fact this was the CK time period was when Portuguese was rapidly differentiating themselves from Castilian and even on official documents the languages where listed separately. Combing Catalan and Spanish are silly, different branch of the Romance language, much more in common with Oc then Castilian anyway.

Spanish is just a more fancy name for Iberian.

German: Dutch did not existing speratly at the beginning of the game but eventually drifted away and was showing a signifcant deal of difference (although nothing dramatic) from the late 1300's onwards.

Yes but the game starts in 1066...there is a long way until 1300s.

Gaelic: Naming disaster! You'll end up with Patrick's in the low lands and Duncan’s in Munster.

Actually quite the opposite, we'll end up with Donchad's and Mael's in Scotalnd....as it should be.

Norse: Not my area expertise, hopefully somebody else can't be more helpful, I'm not actually to against this except it will really hurt the chances of Johan putting this in the next patch!

:rofl:
Yes you are right.

Baltic: Once again, not my thing, hopefully somebody else can be more helpful. I wouldn't mind renaming it 'Balts' though, sounds more Mediveal-lish if we do choose to retain it (and free up more tags! )

Baltic, Baltish, etc....it's the same.

Slavonic: Isn't this something you where entirely against from the beginning and why you started this? Didn't you say they all had different names?... and what's with the Romance Dalmatians being combined in there?

Yes it was, btw. the romance speaking Dalamtians went on the vacation in Italy.

But kudos on the new Armenian, I was going to say something about that but I kept forgetting!

This setup will be introduced in the GCM(General Cultures Mod) as well.

Also, you didn't like my explanation by the Kurs province shouldn't be umm.. 'Baltic'

Ah yes.....glad you reminded me. I checked it and found you were speaking the truth but only the small coastal strip was Livonian/Finnish speaking....the rest was Baltic/Lettish so it will remain as such.

And I take it you don't like the suggestion of renaming 'Finnish' (which is way, way to specific due to what it has become) to Uralic?[7qutoe]

I don't like the name Uralic....it sounds...well un-european. Finnish is IMO the best as the people mainly knew them as Finnish/Finnic tribes. I mean even today Mordvins are called 'Volga Finns', Lapps/Saami 'Northern Finns', Estonians 'Baltic Finns', etc....Besides all these people are of the Finnish/Finnic branch of the Finno-Ugric languages. People must understand that the ethnic terms had a bit different meaning before than they do now.

 

[Calgacus]

All Balts were very much the same people in 1066, they spoke similar languages and the only difference was that they were divided in various tribes: Lithuanins, Letts, Cours, Prussians, etc...

Haha. You have a habit of turning these things into unnecessary lectures. In the case of the Balts, the languages of the time are largely unknown. Today, like Celtic, there are two branches ... Lithuanian and Latvian on one hand, Prussian on the other. I'm not suggesting the split for that reason ... more for later in the game. It's really no big deal, I'd be happy if you just renamed "Baltic" ... "Balt." "Baltic" seems - and I'm sure you agree - too artificial.

However it is my opinion that Carrick and Galloway should be Norse as they were, however they were adopting galiec name and language but they were still Norse which was recongized even by their Galiec neighbours....same for Isle of Man. Also Dublin would perhpas be acceppatable as Gaelic as it really encompasses much greater area than the the city and the small strip of coast placed with Norsemen.

Carrick was never Norse. The area in jam-packed with "Kil" place names ... "Kil" place names representing pre-9th century Columban church foundations.. Carrick was Gaelicized before most of the rest of Scotland.

Beacause they were a separate specific culture. I was thinking about making them Franksih as well in this generalisation but that would give them names like Henri, Eduard, etc....no William. So you see it would ridiculous.

Not really. They were not much different from the rest of northern France. It's easy enough just to stick names like Guillaume and Etienne in the Frankish character list. In the case of my king of France, he rarely has an authentic name in any case.

Btw. I don't rememeber your suggestions for Sardinia and Canaries...

Just that the Canaries should have a one-province tag, and Sardinia and Corsica should have their own tag too.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

It's just a test.

*Phew* I think it was a good idea to test though, interesting way to get people's reactions! Also it's good to see that you know how ridiculous this map is

Actually it would that bad....we would "cook" something up.

:rofl:

Yes but Frankish does not stands here in this map for French, it stands for people of the 'Kingdom of France'.

I see

I don't see why since Gaelic is separate from Brythonic languages such as Welsh(and Cornish/Southern Welsh).

Brythonic was just an example. It's just that there should be cinistantcy, if we're to merge everything together like that, I don't see why Welsh isn't merged with Breton

Spanish is just a more fancy name for Iberian.

an Even fancier one would be Iberian Romance! Spanish is a bit too specific though and a bit anachornistic.

Yes but the game starts in 1066...there is a long way until 1300s.

It's either it starts of Dutvh or we get a string of events late in the game where suddenly a bunch of German provinces become Dutch. I'd like to see the name of the event that would do that, 'Congratulations! You're Dutch now!'

Actually quite the opposite, we'll end up with Donchad's and Mael's in Scotalnd....as it should be.

Could't this be solved with just having a better name list?

Baltic, Baltish, etc....it's the same.

Yah but I'm just wonder what sounds better. I wouldn't mind having them merged into one cultural with Political boundries and freeing 2 cultures! Any ideas what those would be?

Yes it was, btw. the romance speaking Dalamtians went on the vacation in Italy.

Who wouldn't want to go to Italy, it's rather nice this time of year!

This setup will be introduced in the GCM(General Cultures Mod) as well.

Good to see that there where a few serious changes in the new map

Ah yes.....glad you reminded me. I checked it and found you were speaking the truth but only the small coastal strip was Livonian/Finnish speaking....the rest was Baltic/Lettish so it will remain as such.

You're welcome!

I don't like the name Uralic....it sounds...well un-european. Finnish is IMO the best as the people mainly knew them as Finnish/Finnic tribes. I mean even today Mordvins are called 'Volga Finns', Lapps/Saami 'Northern Finns', Estonians 'Baltic Finns', etc....Besides all these people are of the Finnish/Finnic branch of the Finno-Ugric languages. People must understand that the ethnic terms had a bit different meaning before than they do now.

Well in that case I guess you're right. I actually didn't know this.

BTW I was researching Romanian cultureal boundaries and I stumbled along this site http://www.geocities.com/serban_marin/brezeanu2002.html it's rather long (took me nearly an hour to read it) but it's really interesting and may help with the way Vlach and Kipchak are currently set up

 

[Calgacus]

Finellach is Coratian himself and managed to produce .

Knew it! :rofl:

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Haha. You have a habit of turning these things into unnecessary lectures. In the case of the Balts, the languages of the time are largely unknown. Today, like Celtic, there are two branches ... Lithuanian and Latvian on one hand, Prussian on the other. I'm not suggesting the split for that reason ... more for later in the game. It's really no big deal, I'd be happy if you just renamed "Baltic" ... "Balt." "Baltic" seems - and I'm sure you agree - too artificial.

This entire thread is a huge lecture Research into Baltic languages can get a bit difficult, especially for the sake of specifics. I would mind having only 1 or 2 Baltics cultures, but three is a bit much. A West Baltic culture (Prussian, Sudovian/Yotvingian, Galindan culture) and an East Baltic culture (Curonian, Lithuanian, Samogitian, Selonian, Semigallian). Either way, we'rve wrung out at least 1 free tag!

Just that the Canaries should have a one-province tag, and Sardinia and Corsica should have their own tag too.

I'd really like to see a two (or 3 if research shows that Corsica was also part of it) province Sardinian tag btu there's a lot of other pressing areas, I'd think the game would benefeit from a Mozarabic culture or Samoyed or Mordvin culture first.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

Better:

Any Romance: latin
Any Germanic: german
Any Slavic: slavic
Any other: heathen

Happy?

:rofl:

First on naming:
Norse -> Scandinavian

Norse is the actual name of the language and people group living in Scandinavia.

Gaelic: represents the Irish/Highlander Gaelic I presume, so should stay apart from Welsh and Breton

It does.

Saxon -> Anglosaxon

Anglo-Saxon is modern term designed to emphasize the difference between the Britain Saxons and the ones in northern Germany.

Finnish -> Uralic

I already explained why is this unacceptable to me above.

Spanish -> Iberian (but see below)

Spanish and Iberian are the same thing.

Bohemian: represents Czech and Moravian

And Slovak.

Russian: Rus', so it can also represent Byelorussian and Ukrainian

Russian and Rus are the same thing, however as the Finns "usurped" the name of the entire language/people branch so did the Muscovites(modern day Russians) "usupred" the Russian name for themselves.

Lappish -> Saamish

Saamish? Such term never existed prior to late 20th century.

1) Liège/Luik: should be German. Conversion to French started only in middle sixteenth century, and even today there exists a remnant Flemish (= Dutch ie German) population

I was asking about this before and most people said on the matter that it should be Frankish/French.

2) Artois/Artrecht: ditto. This country was even a leader of a (failed) southern Dutch union! (Unie van Atrecht, the main opposer to the Unie van Utrecht, which ultimately won)

Interesting...I was wondering about that too. Ok both Liege and Artois will be Dutch...this is the info I was askign before and no one said anything. Thx.

3) Schleswig should be German (Holstein is Scandinavian)

You surely meant the other way around?! :wacko:
Anyway I disagree, Holstein was raided by the Germans often but it was still by majority Danish/Norse and under their rule in 1066.

4) Frankish: why is Occitan removed? This culture is arguably more distinct from French than southern German is from northern German...

I removed it because they were all part of 'Frankish' culture.

5) South-west France should be Catalan (or whatever culture this is merged into), not Frankish/French

I am rather sceptical about this. In any case Rosello/Roussillon is already Catalan so making other Oc provinces Catalan would be rather strange as it is really hard to draw the line bewteen Oc and Catalan culture.

6) Scotland: south-east Lothian should be (Anglo-)Saxon (province just above the Norse/Scandinavian blob)

Carrick? No way....actually it is my opinion that it should be Norse/Norwegian. Cumberland and posibbly Westmoreland should be Welsh and province of Lothian should perhaps be Saxon/English, but Carrick no way.

7) Spanish: we need at least catalan as distinct (could also represent Aragonese). Portuguese is also needed. Otherwise, merge into Iberian

Argonense is Castilian dialect. Catalan and Portuguese are Iberic/Spanish dialects.

8) Muslims in Spain should include arabs as well

I am still working on this.

9) Southern italy should be Norman in at least Apulia and Calabria

I would like some factual confirmation. As far as I knew Normans did rule but as they didn't left any trace in cultural sense so didn't any other foregin ruler including the Frankish Angevin's and Catalan d'Aragon's. However I would be inclined to do it if you provide me with some sources.

Slovenes: I don't want one province cultures. I'd merge Slovenes either with Germans or Serbs... or make them Wends. Not sure which is better.

Merging Slovenes with Serbs?!?!? :wacko:
And I've already tried making them Wends....people opposed....heavily.
Personally I think they deserve a separate culture.

My version of the map (shamelessly stolen and edited in Gimp):

http://members.chello.nl/b.kroonspecker/ck-cultures.jpg

(too large to be inline, sorry)

OK here are my comments:
1. Carrick cannot be Saxon, it looks ridiculous and is unhistorical. This province was in plan to make it Norwegian while Lothian would become Saxon. Cumberland(and posibbly Westmoreland) Welsh.
2. Occitan is WAY, WAY TOO BIG. It was never spread so much. The difference was from medieval times to this very day by the line Bordeaux-Perigord-Limousin-Auvergne-Forez-Dauphiny-Forcalquier
3.Compostela should also be Portuguese
4. Catalan culture in Foix and Narbonne is rather controversial, but it may be a good guess.
5. Slovene should be also present in Karnten, I know the province is wrong but in place it's been made it should be Slovene withouth one doubt.
6. Krirzevci can in no case be Serbian. Serbs never spread so far to the west and to the north. Krizevci are classic Croatian province....representing moder-day Slavonia. Rama was also Catholic and in no way Serbian.

Yeah, Finellach is Croat... which means that he probably favours the Greater Croatia solution.

Excuse me!?!?!?!?!
I favour no such thing...I am trying to find the most objectie setup here buddy. Not only that I have to fight with the wrongly drawn provinces, lack of tags....now and then comes someone who calls me a fascist and a nationalist?! Nice to know my effort is appreciated...

btw. I apologize for making so many simulatious replies but if I put it all in one post it would be too big and too difficult to read it all up so I replied each person individually.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

OK here is what I want to know:

Carrick - Saxon/English, Scottish/Gaelic or Nowegian/Norse...that is the question.
Cumberland and(??) Westmoreland - Welsh? Yes or no?
Narbonne and Foix, posibbly Bearn - Catalan?
Lecce and Bari(and posibbly Apulia) - Norman? Normans at all in S.Italy?
Artois, Liege and posibbly Hainuaut - Dutch?

Btw. I was thinking and I decided to make Ragusa Serbian and Orthodox. The proinvce is just too big and in the wrong place. Also I can't ignore that the city itself was Latin and Western Slavonic(Croatian) but outdside of the city the medieval documents talk about large Orthodox Vlachich/Serbian population. So Ragusa should IMO have Serbian and Orthodox culture but should be separate republic with Catholic rulers.

 

[unmerged(42906)]

Good to hear it was only a test ^.^

Carrick/Cumberland/Westmoreland: I'll leave that to the experts on Britain...

Narbonne/Foix: Local variants of Occitan are genetically Catalan

Béarn is in the Gascon region, which is actually Occitan, but this dialect is far closer to Catalan than to French. If Occitan is out, Béarn should be Catalan

Lecce/Bari/Apulia: I'd make them Norman. After all the Normans had a major influence on (the early history of) the area, and otherwise we'll end up with only italians there conquering Sicily.

Artois (Atrecht)/Liége (Luik): dutch, as above

As for Hainaut (Henegouwen): this province was originally also dutch, but became francophone (for the most part) a lot earlier than the rest. It was separated from Flanders in 1278, and by the time of the Burgundians (1433) it had become almost completely francophone. I'd keep that french.

On another note, I really like the dutch/german unification in your test map. It makes more sense to split Occitan and french than it does to split dutch and german -- in the CK timeframe.


On "my map" (really just a quick "fix"): you are probably right about the Occitan split and Britain. I took the Occitan from the map earlier in this thread, Britain was probably just carelessness (I wasn't paying too much attention). Since Galician is best represented as Portuguese, Santiago should indeed be Port.

 

[unmerged(42906)]

Excuse me!?!?!?!?!
I favour no such thing...I am trying to find the most objectie setup here buddy. Not only that I have to fight with the wrongly drawn provinces, lack of tags....now and then comes someone who calls me a fascist and a nationalist?! Nice to know my effort is appreciated...

It was not my intent to mark you as such at all, that couldn't be farther from what I think of you!
If I offended you, I apologize. I have a really hard time expressing myself in English some times and unfortunately tend to state things rather incorrectly as you've noticed.

All I really wanted to say was that I find the Balkan region extremely difficult to split in cultures historically, and that invariably there will be some bias depending on the source. This is no more than logical! If a contested region has both population A and population B, popA will state the region is primarily popA, and popB will do the reverse. This does not mean nationalism and certainly not fascism! Again, I apologize if you felt offended by my (no doubt incorrectly stated) post.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

Narbonne/Foix: Local variants of Occitan are genetically Catalan

So should it be Occitan or Catalan?

Béarn is in the Gascon region, which is actually Occitan, but this dialect is far closer to Catalan than to French. If Occitan is out, Béarn should be Catalan

Occitan is not out...I was asking wheter it should be Occitan or Catalan.

Lecce/Bari/Apulia: I'd make them Norman. After all the Normans had a major influence on (the early history of) the area, and otherwise we'll end up with only italians there conquering Sicily.

Yes they had a major influence but they hardly had any influence on the speaking language and traditions of the common people living in those parts. Culture should not be only the culture of the elite but all of people living in the province....as the descritpion in game says.

Artois (Atrecht)/Liége (Luik): dutch, as above

Acknowledged.

As for Hainaut (Henegouwen): this province was originally also dutch, but became francophone (for the most part) a lot earlier than the rest. It was separated from Flanders in 1278, and by the time of the Burgundians (1433) it had become almost completely francophone. I'd keep that french.

Yes I understand it was romanized but was it Frankish or Dutch in 1066, thats what is important not what it became later and what it is today.

On another note, I really like the dutch/german unification in your test map. It makes more sense to split Occitan and french than it does to split dutch and german -- in the CK timeframe.

Yes but I can bet not all, especially Dutch would share your ethusiasm with it.

It was not my intent to mark you as such at all, that couldn't be farther from what I think of you!
If I offended you, I apologize. I have a really hard time expressing myself in English some times and unfortunately tend to state things rather incorrectly as you've noticed.

Apology accepted.

All I really wanted to say was that I find the Balkan region extremely difficult to split in cultures historically, and that invariably there will be some bias depending on the source. This is no more than logical! If a contested region has both population A and population B, popA will state the region is primarily popA, and popB will do the reverse. This does not mean nationalism and certainly not fascism! Again, I apologize if you felt offended by my (no doubt incorrectly stated) post.

I understand that. It may be awfully difficult for a foreigner to see what is factual and what is propaganda. Even I sometimes have a hard time, but thats why I am checking everything two, three and sometimes even more times. I am also reading up on all sources and then I just try to come up with the most neutral solution.

 

[unmerged(42906)]

So should it be Occitan or Catalan?

A case could be made for both. My personal preference is Catalan, as it has more in common with Catalan dialects than with other Occitan dialects like Gascon.


(On Hainaut):

Yes I understand it was romanized but was it Frankish or Dutch in 1066, thats what is important not what it became later and what it is today.

It was most likely dutch. It was created out of Lothier in the late 9th C, became a part of Flanders in 1036, and with the exception of the period 1070-1191 was ruled over by the counts of Flanders until 1278. (From 1070 to 1191 it had a native, dutch-speaking nobility ruling over it.) Baldwin I of Constantinople (4th Crusade) spoke flemish (=dutch) at his court while he was the count of Hainaut (as Baldwin VI).

 

[unmerged(27913)]

Ok then Hainuaut would be Dutch. I still need to think about Narbonne and Foix being reverted to Catalan. Also Bearn too. Thx.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Actually, I know there's a lot of resistance to having Dutch in the game but not so much towards Flemish which emerged much sooner then in the Netherlands. Especially in cities such as Antwerp which spread their dialect to the Netherlands from Flanders and Brabant after 1585 when the city fell to the Spanish.