Grand Culture Mod : (Cultures I'd like to see instated)

[Veldmaarschalk]

The Dutch are just a German tribe

Aren't the Germans a Dutch tribe with a funny accent ? :rofl:

Can anyone tell me in which file I can change it.

You can change the name of a culture in the file world_names which is in the config folder.

Then you have to go to the scenario folder, open the 1066_scenario_provinces. And changes the culture names of the provinces you want changed.

In the 1066_scenario_characters you can change the culture of the characters.

But did the high and low german cultures use different surnames?
Are there names who are typical high german and names typical low german?
I am not aware of any major differences in the names. And since culture is mostly reflected in surnames there is no real need to split the germans in high and low.

 

[unmerged(42906)]

@Finellach: "High" and "Low" German isn't a "quality" distinction, but it simply refers to the Alps (high lands) vs the sea coasts (low lands). The colloquial "Platt" has a similar meaning: flat (from flat lands).

And I am not advocating a split of German culture per se (as Veldmaarschalk notes Germans tended to use similar names [and that included most parts of the modern Netherlands by the way]), but if another free tag is needed to add an important culture, or even just to split the Kelts up better, I would vote to use dutch for it.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

but since we're on the (original) topic, what should 'Frysk' be considered? Should be consider it German and make Frisia and Westfriesland German or should we consider it combined with Dutch and make Oldenburg and Ost-Friesland?

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Since there was no Dutch culture in 1066, it would be German.

Frysk/Frisian would be more logical to have as a culture then dutch. But then Frysk/Frisian isn't that different either from German (low) in that era.

@Finellach: "High" and "Low" German isn't a "quality" distinction, but it simply refers to the Alps (high lands) vs the sea coasts (low lands). The colloquial "Platt" has a similar meaning: flat (from flat lands).

But that doesn't count for dutch language. Since we don't have mountains here. But also have distincion between hoog nederlands (high dutch ?) and plat nederlands (low dutch? ). And plat (low) (is mostly spoken in the higher parts of the Netherlands.

 

[unmerged(42906)]

Okay, a little diversion into Germanic languages:

broadly speaking, all Germanic languages in the former HRE are West Germanic. We can define three main branches in this:
-Anglic: became English and Scots (before the Norman influences)
-Low German: Dutch (incl. Flemish), Low Saxon (Platt), East Low German (Prussian etc.)
-High German: Standard German, Luxembourgeois, Swiss German, Austro-Bavarian.

Depending on whom you ask, Frysian is either a fourth branch, or a Low German language.

High German is further split in Middle German and Upper German, Low German is further split in Low Saxon, Low Franconian, and East Low German.

Dutch, West Flemish, Limburgs, and Afrikaans are Low Franconian.
"Platt" and Plautdietsch (Mennonite) are Low Saxon
Prussian and Pommerisch (now mostly extinct) are/were East Low German.

Generally and confusingly, all of these are/were called "Platt".


Now on the High German side, standard German (confusingly called "Hochdeutsh"), is a Middle German language. The only other surviving Middle German language is Silesian (the Germanic one, not the Polish one).

A separate group inside Middle German are the West Middle German languages, which are Luxembourgeois, West Middle German (Lotharingisch [but not Alsatian, which is closer to Austro-Bavarian] and Pfalzisch), and Pennsylvania Deutsch.

The other High German languages are the Upper Germanic ones, which means the Swiss dialects, Austro-Bavarian, Swabian, and Yiddish.

With me this far?

Now because people like to be annoying, when a non-linguist speaks about 'High German' (Hochdeutsch), he means Standard German, which is a MIDDLE GERMAN language from the HIGH GERMAN branch of WEST GERMANIC.
When this person speaks about 'Low German' (Niederdeutsch) or 'Flat German' (Plattdeutsch), he means ALL dialects which are not Hochdeutsch. If you've been paying attention, you realize that this includes all LOW GERMAN languages, but also all WEST MIDDLE GERMAN languages (which are not Low German, but High German), as well as all UPPER GERMAN languages (which are also High German).


Now to get back on topic: in the CK era, and VERY broadly speaking, since these languages formed a spectrum, you could say that all Low German speaking peoples understood eachother, and that all High German speakers did. And because the HRE was dominated by High German speakers as Germany is today, the better educated Low German speakers also understood High German.

So to summarize a bit:
Dutch = Low German = Low Saxon = Platt
High German = Standard German

And Frisian is either a close relative of Dutch/LG/LS/Platt, or a closely related cousin.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

This all would be a generalization of the culture map. This would go on track on what Calcagus proposed, but personally this is not what the Grand Culture mod is about.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

The West Germanic dialects can be divided according to tribe (Frisian, Saxon, Franconian, Bavarian and Swabian), and according to the extent of their participation in the Second Germanic sound shift (Low German against High German). The present Dutch standard language is largely derived from Low Franconian dialects spoken in the Low Countries that must have reached a separate identity no later than about AD 700.

An early Dutch recorded writing is: "Hebban olla vogala nestas hagunnan, hinase hic enda tu, wat unbidan we nu" ("All birds have started making nests, except me and you, what are we waiting for"), dating around the year 1100, written by a Flemish monk in a convent in Rochester, England. For a long time this sentence was considered to be the earliest in Dutch, but since its discovery even older fragments were found, such as "Visc flot aftar themo uuatare" ("A fish was swimming in the water") and "Gelobistu in got alamehtigan fadaer" ("Do you believe in God the almighty father"). The latter fragment was written as early as 900. Professor Luc De Grauwe from the University of Ghent disputes the language of these stretches of text, and actually believes them to be Old English, so there is still some controversy surrounding them.

The problem is 'Dutch' wasn't standardised until the late 15th century and it probably was still in it's embryonic stages of differentiating itself from other Germanic languages as of 1066. you have to remember to that the games goes into the mid 15th century and the cultures in the game have to reflect that 400 or so years and certainly by the 1400's we can agree the Dutch where becoming significantly different.

 

[unmerged(42906)]

No more so than German dialects in other nations. The Hansa for example standardized on Low Saxon (Platt) dialects, which were very different from the dialects spoken in the southern cities.

If the Dutch hadn't become separated from the rest of Germany because of the Spanish occupation and following 80 Years War, and later the republican independence, I highly doubt that the Dutch would have began seeing themselves as different. Before WW2 'Nederduits' or 'Diets' was a very common term used to refer to the Dutch-as-a-German-people (which was abused by nazi sympathisers, much like the Flemish revivalists also were falling into the nazi camp in Belgium).

Only after WW2 was the Dutch language reformed and degermanized.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

No more so than German dialects in other nations. The Hansa for example standardized on Low Saxon (Platt) dialects, which were very different from the dialects spoken in the southern cities.

If the Dutch hadn't become separated from the rest of Germany because of the Spanish occupation and following 80 Years War, and later the republican independence, I highly doubt that the Dutch would have began seeing themselves as different. Before WW2 'Nederduits' or 'Diets' was a very common term used to refer to the Dutch-as-a-German-people (which was abused by nazi sympathisers, much like the Flemish revivalists also were falling into the nazi camp in Belgium).

Only after WW2 was the Dutch language reformed and degermanized.

Well of course you'd be the bigger expert on this then me and you're right. Are Dutch names (Medieval ones) different from German ones?

 

[unmerged(42906)]

Well of course you'd be the bigger expert on this then me and you're right.

I'm no expert, I'm just an amateur with a big mouth and a large interest

Are Dutch names (Medieval ones) different from German ones?

If you allow for variants (Willem/Wilhelm, Boudewijn/Baldewin etc. -- in the case of Boudewijn you can find Boudewijn/Boudwyn/Baldewin/Baldwijn/Baldewinus which are all the same name), virtually all Dutch names could be Low German names, and vice versa. And these variants exist on both sides of the border, what you find is not a direct border but rather a shift all over northern Europe (a classical spectrum).

High German names however are seldom seen in the Netherlands (no dutch nobles called Ordulf, Sigfried, Lothar etc.).

 

[unmerged(42726)]

I think that there must be special culture for those who was born in the Levant(children of crusaders). it can be named 'polein' and perhaps can have special portraits. Now children crusaders can get an arab culture with well known consequences(Ishaq Capet).

 

[Olaus Petrus]

To avoid any confusions between modern and medieval meaning of these terms, I made few observations:

Originally Posted by jordik
-Anglic: became English and Scots (before the Norman influences)

When you say Scots, you must mean language of descendants of the English settlers in lowland Scotland. Original Scottish language is usually called Gaelic and it's celtic language. The term Scots can referr to both languages. In CK timeframe Scots (up to 15th century) meaned Scots Gaelic language. After that Scots means also English dialect of Lowland Scotland. Today it normally means Scottish English.

Originally Posted by jordik
Prussian and Pommerisch (now mostly extinct) are/were East Low German.

I know that both of these are also German dialects, but to avoid confusions. In CK timeframe Pommeranian is West Slavic language, closely related to Polish. Also in CK timeframe Prussian is West Baltic language. Prussian language died out end of the 17th century. All West Baltic languages Galindan, Prussian and Sudovian have died out.

 

[unmerged(42906)]

Yeah, I was referring to the German languages. Scots is the Anglo-Saxon language of Scotland, which coexists with Scottish English (a dialect of English) and Gaelic as a language of Scotland.

With Prussian and Pommerisch I refer to the German languages of the region, which existed until the mass deportations of 1945, and now are either dead or moribund. Not to the Slavic or Baltic languages, which had died out centuries before.

 

[Olaus Petrus]

I should have been more specific, when speaking about Scots and Scottish English. Scots is original English dialect speaken by Scots. There has been some discussion is Scots separate language or dialect of English. Today it's minority language in Great Britain. There are 1.5 million Scots speakers and Scots is teached in schools, but practically now one of the younger generation uses it as their primary language. Scots has mostly historical value, because older literacy is written in Scots.

Scottish English is English dialect spoken with Scottish accent. It is closer to English grammary standards than Scots. It is the dialect most Scots speak today.

But this diversion between different modern Scottish dialects isn't really relevant, because only Gaelic and Scots were spoken in Scotland during CK timeframe.

BTW: If we consider linguistic and cultural traditions culture of Southern Lowland Scotland is more closer to Northumbria than Highlands Scotland and Isles. That's because of Anglosaxon settlers to South and Middle Scotland. Historically many parts of Southern Scotland were long under Northumbrian rule. So if it won't piss off too many Scots, could we consider chancing some of the South Scottish provinces culturally Saxon.

Also culture of Cumbria should be Welsh, after all they were native population there. There are some documents written in Welsh in that region. I know that Welsh language died out in Cumbria in 13th or 14th century and people of Cumbria were mix of Celts, Anglosaxons and Scandinavians, but I think that Northern Cumbria could be made culturally Welsh (Best southern lowlands were conquered by Anglosaxons and later Vikings. .

 

[yourworstnightm]

No more so than German dialects in other nations. The Hansa for example standardized on Low Saxon (Platt) dialects, which were very different from the dialects spoken in the southern cities.

If the Dutch hadn't become separated from the rest of Germany because of the Spanish occupation and following 80 Years War, and later the republican independence, I highly doubt that the Dutch would have began seeing themselves as different. Before WW2 'Nederduits' or 'Diets' was a very common term used to refer to the Dutch-as-a-German-people (which was abused by nazi sympathisers, much like the Flemish revivalists also were falling into the nazi camp in Belgium).

Only after WW2 was the Dutch language reformed and degermanized.

I agree about the dutch probably concidered themselves as germans during the CK timeline, but for example the flemish, even though their language were low german, they concidered themselves flemish (probably because they for a long time were a part of France, not the HRE). Then again we have the frisian question. The frisians had a own language related to german and dutch, which could be symbolized by either one of the two cultures.

I prefer flemish to be an own culture, while the rest of the dutch are concidered germans (also the frisians because of the lack of tags).

 

[unmerged(27913)]

As I said if we make Dutch part of German tag then we have clear justification for what calcagus proposed. So we would then need to unite Scottish and Irish into one Gaelic tag, we could then proceed with uniting all Scandinavian tags into one Norse, Prussian, Lithuanian and Lettish would be one Baltic tag, Castilian, Portuguese, Catalan would all be just Iberians or Spanish.

Basically the question is - is this mod about that?
I would say no. The other question is - Is there enough interest for such a mod that would rather unite tags like that and would that be good since we all know that culture influeces the naming of the characters.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Well this mod definitely shouldn't result in lesser cultures. That would be the wrong way.

A few pages back you had a list of the tags you wanted changed. I think most people here can live with that list.

Discussions about a the right culture in a single border province in Cornwall, are interesting , but lead to almost nothing.

 

[Brian Bóruma]

I don't agree with you guys who want to destroy Scottish or Dutch cultures. They serve a purpose, they're just being used incorrectly.

Scottish culture should be a late game occurance, or only in the south of the country where there are a lot of germanic names.

Dutch culture should be broadened to include all of Northern Germany and renamed "Low German", while the existing German can become "High German".

Yes, this mod was stated to be about ADDING cultures, but why keep ones that only screw up the game and buck history? it's not good to have cultures just to have them. Keep in mind the function of culture is mainly for naming purposes. When you have kids in 1068 being named Edward in the Scottish Highlands, you know something is wrong.

Let the Scandinavians keep their cultures. Let the Balts keep their cultures. Let the Dutch remain, as well. Their names are represented fine. It's the Scots who have been screwed in the game. Fixing it by Gaelicizing their names would only make the later game ahistorical. The best option is to rename Irish to "Gaelic". It solves the Isle of Man problem, and it keeps Scottish around as a late game language to simulate "Scots".

Today, Scotsmen call the native language "Gàidhlig", Manx call it "Gaelg", and the Irish call theirs "Gaeilge". 1,000 years ago, we can safely say it's alright to call it the same language. Modern Irish Gaelic is different from Scottish Gaelic because of colonization. It's based mainly out of the Connaught dialect, while Scottish language originated in Ulster.

 

[Calgacus]

Let the Scandinavians keep their cultures. Let the Balts keep their cultures. Let the Dutch remain, as well. Their names are represented fine. It's the Scots who have been screwed in the game. Fixing it by Gaelicizing their names would only make the later game ahistorical. The best option is to rename Irish to "Gaelic". It solves the Isle of Man problem, and it keeps Scottish around as a late game language to simulate "Scots".

Today, Scotsmen call the native language "Gàidhlig", Manx call it "Gaelg", and the Irish call theirs "Gaeilge". 1,000 years ago, we can safely say it's alright to call it the same language. Modern Irish Gaelic is different from Scottish Gaelic because of colonization. It's based mainly out of the Connaught dialect, while Scottish language originated in Ulster.

I do agree that the Gaels should be merged. But "Scots" should be abolished. There is no coherent Anglo-Scottish culture in the CK period that can be said to be distinguishable from English. The English in Ireland or Wales prolly deserve their own tag more.

 

[Brian Bóruma]

I do agree that the Gaels should be merged. But "Scots" should be abolished. There is no coherent Anglo-Scottish culture in the CK period that can be said to be distinguishable from English. The English in Ireland or Wales prolly deserve their own tag more.

The English in Ireland during CK were always Normans... They don't need a culture.

I guess my thinking that Scottish culture shouldn't be "killed" stems from the fact that I hate the late game in EU2 where they call Scottish provinces "Anglosaxon". The idea that Scotland is no different from England troubles me, but maybe you're right.