Grand Culture Mod : (Cultures I'd like to see instated)

[Earl Uhtred]

I've looked at that site and I would be very wary of taking such axe-grinding at face value.

I don't need to post the links when the events are so well known.

Any evidence of some British language rights movement as a contributing factor to Cornish medieval unrest is news to me... sock it to me.

I mean there were more than half of dozen uprisings between 14th and 16th century that were based in Cornwall(as in Duchy not modern-day county). And yes they were Celtic...

Local rights would have been uppermost in rebel minds, and rebellions often have a cultural dimension, but Cornwall was hardly unique at that. Making out that those rebellions had 'Celtic roots' is a serious claim needing serious backing.

When all's said, we have Domesday, and that's as good a source as anyone could wish for. It bears me out - a society anglicised / normanised from top to visible bottom.

But I'll drop this for once and all now because I'm not getting anywhere with you.

 

[Calgacus]

I've looked at that site and I would be very wary of taking such axe-grinding at face value.

Yeah, I mean, that website is by no means authoritative. I was just interested in the pieces of evidence for Cornish survival it produces, which I very much doubt the author invented. It is highly unfortunate, as far as I'm concerned, that he didn't reference.

When all's said, we have Domesday, and that's as good a source as anyone could wish for. It bears me out - a society anglicised / normanised from top to visible bottom.

That's what I was wishing I had ... how extensively does it cover the Westcountry... and what sort of evidence are you gaining from it?

 

[unmerged(31117)]

I don't know if their was a substantial norweigian prescence in the Dublin area by the time of the game, I'm pretty sure the majority of the population of that area was Celtic even when the Viking actually ruled it and falling back into the control of Irish rulers by the CK era would have extinguished what Norweigian prescence remained in that area. No Munster should not be Norweigian. However their is justification for Danish prescence in northern england and at that time they were constantly rebelling against the Saxons.
According to what I've read on books on the Godwins the north England Danes appear to have been so anarchistic that the establishment of any kind of law and order in that area almost undoubtably led to chaos.

Why isn't Arta Albanian though? I never quite got why not? And the Croatian Coast should probably be Croatian not Italian, since I'm pretty sure Italians only got established during Venetian rule. The mega-cuman culture should be renamed to something more nuetral like Kipchak and the large Castillian province to the south of the basque block should probably be Basque aswell, given that it is part of Navarre (and I can't see any reason to take them out of that province anyway). I'd appreaciate Berber bieng renamed to Moorish as sounds better for the period. I'd like to see Finnish renamed Finno-Ugric simply beacause it's less culturally specific (though hyphonated culture names would be a new thing. What convinced you to extend Moorish rule eastwards, shouldn't Sicily now be Moorish. Overall a very good use of the tags, I may almost forgive you for murdering cultural diversity in the north east of the map, in the dog eat world of culture wars, there simply aren't enough tags for everyone. .

 

[Semi-Lobster]

And the Croatian Coast should probably be Croatian not Italian, since I'm pretty sure Italians only got established during Venetian rule.

They're not actually Italians it's representing but the Latin Dalmatians who in an ideal world would get their own tag but of course you know our situation

The mega-cuman culture should be renamed to something more nuetral like Kipchak

Agreed, Cuman is to specific considering it's also covering Bolgars and Pechenegs.

and the large Castillian province to the south of the basque block should probably be Basque aswell, given that it is part of Navarre (and I can't see any reason to take them out of that province anyway).

Rioja was never Basque, just because it was part of th kingdom of Navarre doesn't make it Basque, Finellach answered this question (by me ) on this page (or the last one, can't remeber)

I'd appreaciate Berber bieng renamed to Moorish as sounds better for the period.

What's in a name? A lot of things, 'Moorish' was really just a term for the Hybrid culture in Andalusia between Berbers, Arabs and native Iberians, the Berber kingdoms of North Africa where not one and the same with the Moors. Also Berber is also being used for the Canary Islands and Moorish would be very inappropriate for that.

I'd like to see Finnish renamed Finno-Ugric simply beacause it's less culturally specific (though hyphonated culture names would be a new thing.

Unless you want to refer to Hungarians as part of this mega culture then Finno-Ugric isn't a good idea sonce the only Ugric people would be the Magyars, also Finno-Ugric would also not make sense since the Samoyedic languages aren't within Finno-Ugric, the best name for such a varied group of peoples would be Uralic.

What convinced you to extend Moorish rule eastwards, shouldn't Sicily now be Moorish. Overall a very good use of the tags, I may almost forgive you for murdering cultural diversity in the north east of the map, in the dog eat world of culture wars, there simply aren't enough tags for everyone. .

Yah, I was going to mention that too, coastal Libya wasn't really inhabitated by Berbers anymore, most had adopted Arabic language and life style by then. The border between the two should be in modern day Tunisia.

 

[unmerged(31117)]

Uralic is a good term, I like it . I'm just going to smash the Uralics over there and grab their land :rofl:

 

[unmerged(27913)]

Ok Semi-Lobester already answered most of the questions but I'll adress it myself....

I don't know if their was a substantial norweigian prescence in the Dublin area by the time of the game, I'm pretty sure the majority of the population of that area was Celtic even when the Viking actually ruled it and falling back into the control of Irish rulers by the CK era would have extinguished what Norweigian prescence remained in that area.

This can be easily fixed. However I really find it strange that a town founded by Vikings would not be in a least Norse(Norwegian in this case)...

No Munster should not be Norweigian.

However their is justification for Danish prescence in northern england and at that time they were constantly rebelling against the Saxons.
According to what I've read on books on the Godwins the north England Danes appear to have been so anarchistic that the establishment of any kind of law and order in that area almost undoubtably led to chaos.

York is already Danish...should any other province be Danish? I must remind you that Durham was also made Danish but I was made known that they were present in York only...now you say otherwise...

Why isn't Arta Albanian though? I never quite got why not?

Because Albanians never were present so far to the South. Arta was always a Greek.

And the Croatian Coast should probably be Croatian not Italian, since I'm pretty sure Italians only got established during Venetian rule.

It's not Italian, only the tag is italian representing Dalmatian Romance cultural corpus. Also Italians did not established themselves even during the Venetian rule as well. It started much later...in nationalistic era when many Romance speaking people were assimilated and when many Italians started moving in...

The mega-cuman culture should be renamed to something more nuetral like Kipchak

You are aware that 'Kipchak' and 'Cuman' is the name for the same people?

and the large Castillian province to the south of the basque block should probably be Basque aswell, given that it is part of Navarre (and I can't see any reason to take them out of that province anyway).

As Semi-Lobster said and as I explained earlier La Rioja was never Basque, however it was part of Navarrese kingdom and as such it will remain.

I'd appreaciate Berber bieng renamed to Moorish as sounds better for the period.

I already explained this at least 20 times....
'Moorish' is a term for all Muslim invaders from North Africa. it did not designate certain people, but a group of people....Arabs and Berbers. Renaming Berbers to Moors would be wrong and I will not do it.

I'd like to see Finnish renamed Finno-Ugric simply beacause it's less culturally specific (though hyphonated culture names would be a new thing.

I already said the name 'Finno-ugric' is unacepptable for the period because
it sounds too scientific, not to mention that we have Hungarians who are Finno-Ugric as well so to have it would be anachronistic. In any case the tag represents more than Finns proper and it encompassed all Finnic branch speaking people + Samoyedic branch which is closer to Finnic branch than it is to Ugric(Hungarian).

What convinced you to extend Moorish rule eastwards, shouldn't Sicily now be Moorish.

People convinced me.
Sicily was Arab as Saracens were Arabs.

...there simply aren't enough tags for everyone. .

Tell me about it....

@Earl Uhtred - I researched your claims as I always do with any suggestion and I found only the opposite about Celts in Devon and Cornwall. All led me to the conclusion that Cornwall(as in Duchy) was dominantly Welsh(name for all Celts in Britain by the English/Saxons).
Also I welcome your descion to close this matters...as it's really getting tiresome...

 

[Calgacus]

Ok Semi-Lobester already answered most of the questions but I'll adress it myself....



This can be easily fixed. However I really find it strange that a town founded by Vikings would not be in a least Norse(Norwegian in this case)...

Just to give a comment here. The CK province "Dublin" is huge, covering most of "Leinster." To any one with a familiarity with Irish history in the period, it just looks dumb. The tiny town of Dublin was founded centuries before CK-time, and came under periodic control of native princes, as well as the (by our time) tiny population of Hibericized Norse.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

You are aware that 'Kipchak' and 'Cuman' is the name for the same people?

Not exactly, Kipchak is also used to group the Northwestern Turkic languages, Cuman included. We could call the other Turkic branch Oghuz to since 'Turkish' is rather specific.

People convinced me.
Sicily was Arab as Saracens were Arabs.

But wheren't they only recently (when the game starts in 1066, not 2005 ) part of the Kingdom of Zirids in Tunisia who where Berbers.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

Just to give a comment here. The CK province "Dublin" is huge, covering most of "Leinster." To any one with a familiarity with Irish history in the period, it just looks dumb. The tiny town of Dublin was founded centuries before CK-time, and came under periodic control of native princes, as well as the (by our time) tiny population of Hibericized Norse.

Well thats something I can't help you with. For comparison the Ragusa(Dubrovnik) province is also having the same problem. In addition of not only being huge(Ragusa/Dubrovnik was a small coastal county-city) it is also covering totally wrong area.

Not exactly, Kipchak is also used to group the Northwestern Turkic languages, Cuman included.

Sorry, but no. Kipchak and Cuman are one and the same thing. Kipchaks divided into Western branch and Eastern branch. The Europeans called the Kipchaks which migrated to Europe 'Cumans'(Rus' called them Polovtsy).
In any case I can rename it to 'Kipchaks', but as I said there really isn't any difference...

We could call the other Turkic branch Oghuz to since 'Turkish' is rather specific.

I would advise against such a thing since Turkish tag is used for Seljuks.

But wheren't they only recently (when the game starts in 1066, not 2005 ) part of the Kingdom of Zirids in Tunisia who where Berbers.

All historical sources speak of Arabs....not even Moors, but specifically Arabs.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Sorry, but no. Kipchak and Cuman are one and the same thing. Kipchaks divided into Western branch and Eastern branch. The Europeans called the Kipchaks which migrated to Europe 'Cumans'(Rus' called them Polovtsy).
In any case I can rename it to 'Kipchaks', but as I said there really isn't any difference...

We can go on and on but frankly, I'm really lazy so perhaps we can call them West and East Turkic or something Just a different name then Cuman since it refers to just the Cumans rather then the Northwestern Turkic tribes in general. How about we cal the Caspian or something?

I would advise against such a thing since Turkish tag is used for Seljuks.

Well it was just a (bad) iea. Also what else would Oghuz culture represent? Azerbaijani don't even exist yet.

All historical sources speak of Arabs....not even Moors, but specifically Arabs.

Sicily was a huge melting pot of cultures but the Berber Aghlabids of Tunis first conquered it from the Byzantines, afterwards they where overthrown by the Fatamids who at the time where centered around Berber Tunisia and the Maghreb, after a short while they granted Hassan al-Kalbi the title as Emir of Sicily, where these Arabs you say that lived in Sicily came from I have no idea but Sicily had been in Berber hands for over 200 years.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

We can go on and on but frankly, I'm really lazy so perhaps we can call them West and East Turkic or something Just a different name then Cuman since it refers to just the Cumans rather then the Northwestern Turkic tribes in general. How about we cal the Caspian or something?

I don't know....Kipchak sounds better...

Well it was just a (bad) iea. Also what else would Oghuz culture represent? Azerbaijani don't even exist yet.

I don't know....as far as I am familiar Oghuz Turks were assimilated into Cumans in 1060s.

Sicily was a huge melting pot of cultures but the Berber Aghlabids of Tunis first conquered it from the Byzantines, afterwards they where overthrown by the Fatamids who at the time where centered around Berber Tunisia and the Maghreb, after a short while they granted Hassan al-Kalbi the title as Emir of Sicily, where these Arabs you say that lived in Sicily came from I have no idea but Sicily had been in Berber hands for over 200 years.

Well every essey on the subject talks off Sicilian Muslims as Arabs.

 

[Havard]

Sicily was a huge melting pot of cultures but the Berber Aghlabids of Tunis first conquered it from the Byzantines, afterwards they where overthrown by the Fatamids who at the time where centered around Berber Tunisia and the Maghreb, after a short while they granted Hassan al-Kalbi the title as Emir of Sicily, where these Arabs you say that lived in Sicily came from I have no idea but Sicily had been in Berber hands for over 200 years.

Both the Aghlabids and the Fatimids were, AFAIK, Arab dynasties.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Both the Aghlabids and the Fatimids were, AFAIK, Arab dynasties.

Yes but they where both based in Ifriqiya and the Maghreb which was inhabited by Berbers, of course the Aghlabids where Emirs on behalf of the Abbasid Caliph. This loyalty was nominal though and generally they could be seen as simply independant by some. Generally the Aghlabids relied on their own manpower after establishing themselves in North Africa. It really depends who went to live there, initially yes Arabs did the invading but afterwards it would be more likely Berber settlers would move in.

 

[Havard]

Yes but they where both based in Ifriqiya and the Maghreb which was inhabited by Berbers, of course the Aghlabids where Emirs on behalf of the Abbasid Caliph. This loyalty was nominal though and generally they could be seen as simply independant by some. Generally the Aghlabids relied on their own manpower after establishing themselves in North Africa. It really depends who went to live there, initially yes Arabs did the invading but afterwards it would be more likely Berber settlers would move in.

The Aghlabids fought agains several Berber uprisings. Calling them berber would be very wrong.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

The Aghlabids fought agains several Berber uprisings. Calling them berber would be very wrong.

I never did I'm saying that we should not dismiss the possibilities that after the initial invasion of the island by Arabs the Aghlabids may have sent Berbers from The Maghreb and Ifriqiya. If it later proves I may be wrong then so bit it but I don't want to have what I say be misinterpreted.

 

[Havard]

I never did

Eh...

(...) the Berber Aghlabids of Tunis (...)

Sure you did

I'm saying that we should not dismiss the possibilities that after the initial invasion of the island by Arabs the Aghlabids may have sent Berbers from The Maghreb and Ifriqiya. If it later proves I may be wrong then so bit it but I don't want to have what I say be misinterpreted.

I can not remember to never seen mention of any a significant Berber influence in Sicily...

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Sure you did

D'oh, typo! o

I can not remember to never seen mention of any a significant Berber influence in Sicily...

Well since both you and Finellach seem to have rather concrete evidence of an Arab majoirty I concede defeat and bring an end to this rather pointless and forth banter! (also I assume Malta should also remain Arabic)

 

[Enravota]

Vidin and maybe Naisos should be changed from Serbian to Bulgarian.

btw the mod is becoming more and more finnished

 

[unmerged(21937)]

btw the mod is becoming more and more finnished

The more finnish the better.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

The more finnish the better.

Well considering that 'Finnish' is now +40 provinces...

I'm no expert on Scandanavia but was Holstein actually Danish?