- Dec 14, 1999
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Ye God's!
I'm .. breathless..
Was it Valios' and mine constant moaning at the exclusion of these countries that did it, or what!?
I'm .. breathless..
Was it Valios' and mine constant moaning at the exclusion of these countries that did it, or what!?
That could be mighty fun !
I'm already planning (as Sigismund) to crush Duke Charles separatists in Sweden-Finland and then...
I'll crush the protestants in the Thirty years war and then...
Yes, Poland !
/Greven
I'm already planning (as Sigismund) to crush Duke Charles separatists in Sweden-Finland and then...
I'll crush the protestants in the Thirty years war and then...
Yes, Poland !
/Greven
Yeah, Playing Poland in a great campgain will be a major benefical change, even if France loose his main minor ally (I really don't sure that a human player will sacrifice his army just to help France).
But, try to give a chance to sweep to another country just in case (Prussia, Habsburg...)
But, try to give a chance to sweep to another country just in case (Prussia, Habsburg...)
Please Sapura, my name is Vaios not Valios. It seems that one of your greatest dreams have come true. It is good to see that Poland and Portugal made it. However there is something that bothers me. Poland lacked strong centralized government and sometimes the great noble houses where stronger than the king himself. Revolts and political instability occured quite often throughout the history of this country. I hope that there is a way to represent this. I surely think that Poland will be a very difficult country to run.
[This message has been edited by Vaios (edited 03-02-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Vaios (edited 03-02-2000).]
Hello, everybody!
News are great - Poland in Grand Campaign. My congratulations to Sapura. But what about Sweden. In such a case it would be fairly to include Sweden as well. I am not 'blonde scandinavian viking' , by the way.
Regards,
Nick
News are great - Poland in Grand Campaign. My congratulations to Sapura. But what about Sweden. In such a case it would be fairly to include Sweden as well. I am not 'blonde scandinavian viking' , by the way.
Regards,
Nick
If Portugal and Poland are now playable, Sweden must also be playable in the Grand Campaign as well. Otherwise, how can the designers claim to be self-respecting Swedes? .
Just let me stomp on Peter the Great as Charles XII and I'll be happy.
.Just let me stomp on Peter the Great as Charles XII and I'll be happy.
Just a question about Poland as I don't know well history of eastern europa...
You guys who wanted to see Poland added to the list of playable countries, do you consider that Poland (Or Sweden in fact), was able to have a out of europa colonization movement ?
I only wonder how Poland (or why not Sweden) could influence the colonization movement in the grand campaign.
Remember, just a question... I don't know eastern europa history so do not flame me
Pierre
You guys who wanted to see Poland added to the list of playable countries, do you consider that Poland (Or Sweden in fact), was able to have a out of europa colonization movement ?
I only wonder how Poland (or why not Sweden) could influence the colonization movement in the grand campaign.
Remember, just a question... I don't know eastern europa history so do not flame me
Pierre
Pierre may be right. This is ‘Europa Universalis’, ‘Europe over All’ (or words to that effect, I think). Who has hegemony over Europe is only part of the picture. Who is ‘top dog’ on a global scale is what counts to be a contender in the Grand Campaign. In this regard the effects of geography are key. Those nations trapped in the hinterland with only access to the Meditteranean or Baltic (e.g. Poland, Sweden, Venice etc.) are at a great disadvantage in the Campaign Game.
I have no objection to including these nations, but irrespective of who rules over them the peoples of the maritime west will have a natural advantage when it comes to exploration and colonial development. These peoples will naturally develop better and better naval technology and this social trend will be hardly effected by the decrees of monarchy.
I believe that geography gave the Basques, Bretons, Danes, Dutch, English, French, Galicians, Icelanders, Irish, Norwegians, Portuguese, Scots, Spanish and Welsh an advantage over other peoples. This advantage should be handed over to whoever rules them, e.g. Poland can only win globally if it controls either Russia (to spread east over the Urals), or it controls a western maritime province. I think provinces should have different levels of built-in seafaring populations that boost the naval technology level and income of their ruler’s nation.
Even if the criteria for Campaign Game victory changes the means to achieve power, money, will increasingly come from outside Europe toward the 1792 end point. This could lead to an interesting turn of events as a powerful, successful Poland-Lithuania has to battle against increasingly wealthy foes.
In summary, I welcome Portugal and give a guarded welcome to Poland. I’m glad its in, but with over-mighty barons, no colonies and an old-style agrarian economy it’ll take some hard work to win – or to just fend off partition.
I have no objection to including these nations, but irrespective of who rules over them the peoples of the maritime west will have a natural advantage when it comes to exploration and colonial development. These peoples will naturally develop better and better naval technology and this social trend will be hardly effected by the decrees of monarchy.
I believe that geography gave the Basques, Bretons, Danes, Dutch, English, French, Galicians, Icelanders, Irish, Norwegians, Portuguese, Scots, Spanish and Welsh an advantage over other peoples. This advantage should be handed over to whoever rules them, e.g. Poland can only win globally if it controls either Russia (to spread east over the Urals), or it controls a western maritime province. I think provinces should have different levels of built-in seafaring populations that boost the naval technology level and income of their ruler’s nation.
Even if the criteria for Campaign Game victory changes the means to achieve power, money, will increasingly come from outside Europe toward the 1792 end point. This could lead to an interesting turn of events as a powerful, successful Poland-Lithuania has to battle against increasingly wealthy foes.
In summary, I welcome Portugal and give a guarded welcome to Poland. I’m glad its in, but with over-mighty barons, no colonies and an old-style agrarian economy it’ll take some hard work to win – or to just fend off partition.
Beside the possible ability for countries of east/north europa to have an influence in the world global colonization and exploitation, I also wonder what will be the victory conditions for, let's have an example, Poland...
I explain :
Countries with access to Atlantic Ocean can compete for the wealth of America/Africa/Asia.
Obviously, Poland will (and should) have difficulties to have a colony in India or South Africa, to conduct a trade war in south atlantic etc etc...
So, we have to consider a land based victory condition. Hmm... Conquest of Russian territories ? Why not...
But, if other countries will have several possibilities to achieve a victory, creating colonies where other powers are not, controling trade across oceans etc... Poland will have to be a land based eastern power. Something other players will quickly learn, so they will be able to see the goal behind each move of Poland, to understand that blocking the Polish player in his conquest will block his road to victory.
So I am afraid there is not a wide range of possibilities to concede a victory to Poland in the grand campaign.
Pierre
I explain :
Countries with access to Atlantic Ocean can compete for the wealth of America/Africa/Asia.
Obviously, Poland will (and should) have difficulties to have a colony in India or South Africa, to conduct a trade war in south atlantic etc etc...
So, we have to consider a land based victory condition. Hmm... Conquest of Russian territories ? Why not...
But, if other countries will have several possibilities to achieve a victory, creating colonies where other powers are not, controling trade across oceans etc... Poland will have to be a land based eastern power. Something other players will quickly learn, so they will be able to see the goal behind each move of Poland, to understand that blocking the Polish player in his conquest will block his road to victory.
So I am afraid there is not a wide range of possibilities to concede a victory to Poland in the grand campaign.
Pierre
Vaios: So sorry for misspelling your name. I was just over-excited at the news
On your note of Poland's lack of centralized govt, it would be quite difficult to implement these changes. However it could be a good balancer of the game in Poland. A country that has large resources of manpower can be hampered by anarchy / the magnets quarreling and therefore giving problems to defending the borders / reducing the effectivness of the army.
Matthew,
'In summary, I welcome Portugal and give a guarded welcome to Poland. I’m glad its in, but with over-mighty barons, no colonies and an old-style agrarian economy it’ll take some hard work to win – or to just fend off
partition.'
A> I'm sure there'll be a way to reform the government system of Poland in the game, as there is in Turkey.
B> Over mighty barons can be both positive and negative. When working together they can create massive land forces to attack/defend. When split, this can create problems like it did during the Polish deluge of 1655-1660. How this will be represented in the game I don't know.
C> the economic structure will be most probably able to change, especially during the mid 18th century and onwards.
D> colonies can be created through invasion of other countries. Russia can be made a Polish domain and you also forget that Poland has access to the Baltic _aswell_ as to the Black sea.
Sapura
On your note of Poland's lack of centralized govt, it would be quite difficult to implement these changes. However it could be a good balancer of the game in Poland. A country that has large resources of manpower can be hampered by anarchy / the magnets quarreling and therefore giving problems to defending the borders / reducing the effectivness of the army.
Matthew,
'In summary, I welcome Portugal and give a guarded welcome to Poland. I’m glad its in, but with over-mighty barons, no colonies and an old-style agrarian economy it’ll take some hard work to win – or to just fend off
partition.'
A> I'm sure there'll be a way to reform the government system of Poland in the game, as there is in Turkey.
B> Over mighty barons can be both positive and negative. When working together they can create massive land forces to attack/defend. When split, this can create problems like it did during the Polish deluge of 1655-1660. How this will be represented in the game I don't know.
C> the economic structure will be most probably able to change, especially during the mid 18th century and onwards.
D> colonies can be created through invasion of other countries. Russia can be made a Polish domain and you also forget that Poland has access to the Baltic _aswell_ as to the Black sea.
Sapura
When I spoke of colonies, I meant colonies out of Europa. In fact, the game didn't seem, to me, european centered. I do not deny Poland played a role in politics but I doubt even his access to Baltic or Black Seas can be matched to the domination of countries bordering Atlantic.
If Europa Universalis victory conditions are based on a European domination, there is no problem to include Poland.
If they are based on successes all around the world, I don't consider the game is fair for a Polish player. I don't say 'Poland is unable to go out of Europa', I even do not discuss the fact that maybe Poland had the potential to do it.
You can consider that Poland has to crush Russia, that Russian objectives can fit to Poland ones but at the beginning Poland will be obliged to crush Russia to have a chance to win ! And if the player doesn't succeed ?
Tell me you are convinced that playing Poland in a game where victory conditions are based on successes in Europa but in America, Africa and Asia as well won't be boring and that you have the same chance like another to win.
Pierre
If Europa Universalis victory conditions are based on a European domination, there is no problem to include Poland.
If they are based on successes all around the world, I don't consider the game is fair for a Polish player. I don't say 'Poland is unable to go out of Europa', I even do not discuss the fact that maybe Poland had the potential to do it.
You can consider that Poland has to crush Russia, that Russian objectives can fit to Poland ones but at the beginning Poland will be obliged to crush Russia to have a chance to win ! And if the player doesn't succeed ?
Tell me you are convinced that playing Poland in a game where victory conditions are based on successes in Europa but in America, Africa and Asia as well won't be boring and that you have the same chance like another to win.
Pierre
'You can consider that Poland has to crush Russia, that Russian objectives can fit to Poland ones but at the beginning Poland will be obliged to crush Russia to have a chance to win ! And if the player doesn't succeed ?'
Annexing Russia is not the only possibility. Provinces of european Turkey can also be annexed giving it access to the Mediterranean.
For example, Poland may be given the job of freeing eastern Europe from the Turks, the countries there can then become vassals of Poland and this can allow the country to send out colonial fleets from staging areas in the Mediterrenean. Never mind that it has access to the Baltic/Black sea already. Whatever your ideas, that is still access to the coast and can potentially create a colonial player, no matter how small the chances of this succeeding versus say, Spain.
Perhaps, we should ask Johan to explain this to us. If he's allowed Poland to be 'in' then there must be some way of balancing it out.
Sapura
Annexing Russia is not the only possibility. Provinces of european Turkey can also be annexed giving it access to the Mediterranean.
For example, Poland may be given the job of freeing eastern Europe from the Turks, the countries there can then become vassals of Poland and this can allow the country to send out colonial fleets from staging areas in the Mediterrenean. Never mind that it has access to the Baltic/Black sea already. Whatever your ideas, that is still access to the coast and can potentially create a colonial player, no matter how small the chances of this succeeding versus say, Spain.
Perhaps, we should ask Johan to explain this to us. If he's allowed Poland to be 'in' then there must be some way of balancing it out.
Sapura
Defeating Turkey in europe maybe...but annexing parts of anatolia?! Hmmm I doubt that very much. Poland might have excellent manpower-but so does Turkey remember...anyway even though the Poles did have access to the Black sea and Baltic did they have a navy of any consequence?
Anyway the Portuguese are in so I am happy! Navigar e preciso or something like that
Anyway the Portuguese are in so I am happy! Navigar e preciso or something like that
Alexis, there's more possibilites than those that I have mentioned
Agreed, Poland never had a strong navy, it was predominantly a land power however they did have a navy but it was usually manned by privateers. Though the battles they did fight on water were generally successful aswell. Their privateers destroyed a teutonic fleet in the Polish/Teutonic war of 1520. A Polish fleet also destroyed a Swedish fleet in 1627.
Sapura
Agreed, Poland never had a strong navy, it was predominantly a land power however they did have a navy but it was usually manned by privateers. Though the battles they did fight on water were generally successful aswell. Their privateers destroyed a teutonic fleet in the Polish/Teutonic war of 1520. A Polish fleet also destroyed a Swedish fleet in 1627.
Sapura
Something about colonial agitations of European minors in the 17th century: Brandenburg 1681 founded Grossfriedrichsburg at the Gold Coast, Denmark possessed Serampur and Trankebar in India from 1616 and St. Thomas from 1666. Sweden founded a North-American colony in 1637.
Even the Knights of Malta possessed some Carribean Islands in the mid of the 17th century.
Colonies (or trading posts) weren't a good indicator for greatness: Habsburgian Austria was self-evident much more important than the Knights of Malta, though it lacks of any oversea's possessions and navy to mention about.
You didn't need to be a 'global player' to be powerful in Europe, but the oversea expansion gave some small European powers the possibility to play a great role in European history (p.e. the Netherlands).
In EU Poland has no need for navy and oversea territories. The Polish power is much more compareable to Austria than to England or France.
Johan: Do the EU minors (like Denmark and Brandenburg) gain trading posts and colonies in oversea, or is this engagement reserved to the great powers? I hope the minors take their piece of the cake, because I think of the great 'Pax Britannica' board game and its 'Minor Power's activity table' - always fun and anger for the great ones...
Heiko
Even the Knights of Malta possessed some Carribean Islands in the mid of the 17th century.
Colonies (or trading posts) weren't a good indicator for greatness: Habsburgian Austria was self-evident much more important than the Knights of Malta, though it lacks of any oversea's possessions and navy to mention about.
You didn't need to be a 'global player' to be powerful in Europe, but the oversea expansion gave some small European powers the possibility to play a great role in European history (p.e. the Netherlands).
In EU Poland has no need for navy and oversea territories. The Polish power is much more compareable to Austria than to England or France.
Johan: Do the EU minors (like Denmark and Brandenburg) gain trading posts and colonies in oversea, or is this engagement reserved to the great powers? I hope the minors take their piece of the cake, because I think of the great 'Pax Britannica' board game and its 'Minor Power's activity table' - always fun and anger for the great ones...
Heiko
Swedem did have colonies abroad in
North America , New Sweden and some small ones in Africa....So I can´t se any problems to include Sweden in tha grand campaigne, and it was just small country in th north it had impotant political
status and later in 1700 century it had
ther most respected sientist in Europe.
North America , New Sweden and some small ones in Africa....So I can´t se any problems to include Sweden in tha grand campaigne, and it was just small country in th north it had impotant political
status and later in 1700 century it had
ther most respected sientist in Europe.
Heiko,
'n EU Poland has no need for navy and oversea territories. The Polish power is much more compareable to Austria than to England or France.'
If only because both of them are basically land locked countries, however its not impossible for them to have colonies.
I agree with your post however,
Sapura
'n EU Poland has no need for navy and oversea territories. The Polish power is much more compareable to Austria than to England or France.'
If only because both of them are basically land locked countries, however its not impossible for them to have colonies.
I agree with your post however,
Sapura
I assume from the looks of the naval system that vassalization of Denmark and good relations with England are all that is really required of Poland to have a slightly awkward hand in the Atlantic world.
Jason
Who feels sorry for the designers, but also thinks Sweden should be included, and I'm definately not Scandinavian
Jason
Who feels sorry for the designers, but also thinks Sweden should be included, and I'm definately not Scandinavian
RESSURECTING
Yet another old thread. This was even before my time. Just kind thought you would like to know what the EU-talk was like so many moons ago. I don't even know who half of these people are.
Yet another old thread. This was even before my time. Just kind thought you would like to know what the EU-talk was like so many moons ago. I don't even know who half of these people are.