Granada should start as a vassal of Castile

[Vityviktor]

Granada was a tributary state of Castile during this period, and this is how it should be in the game. Later on, after the events causing noble revolts in Granada (the whole thing between Boabdil and al-Zagal), Castile should receive the chance (via an event chain) to declare war on Granada and try to conquer it.

The current thing makes little sense from the historical point of view, and leads to very weird situations (alliance with the Ottomans, Portugal conquering parts of Granada, etc). I think it's a shame that this issue wasn't addressed in the (now infamous) Golden Century DLC.

 

[JKiller96]

There are a few tributary and vassal situations that are not portrayed in game (such as Arakan not being a vassal of Bengal). I think the Granada situation as it is is fine from both a gameplay and historical point of view. As far as I see it, it was more like a war reparations as opposed to actual tributary/vassal status, and thus wouldn't necessitate Granada being a vassal of Castile.

Similarly, the Byzantines paid tribute the the Ottomans since 1424; this did not make them a vassal.

 

[Aquamancer]

Athens was also a tributary of Byzantium, rather than its vassal. And historically, several states in the Caucasus were tributaries of Georgia. Not to mention all of the historical tributaries of the Ottoman Empire.

So perhaps it'd be a good idea to expand tributary mechanics to several states of Western Eurasia?

 

[Vityviktor]

Athens was also a tributary of Byzantium, rather than its vassal. And historically, several states in the Caucasus were tributaries of Georgia. Not to mention all of the historical tributaries of the Ottoman Empire.

So perhaps it'd be a good idea to expand tributary mechanics to several states of Western Eurasia?

In my opinion, this would be the best option.

 

[reivaj89]

I think this is somewhat represented already in the fact that Castile and Granada have a truce at game start. But yeah, expanding the tributary mechanic to Europe wouldn't be bad either.

 

[Sidolowka]

So perhaps it'd be a good idea to expand tributary mechanics to several states of Western Eurasia?

Small note that overlords will not attack their own tributary states, which could potentially cripple the Ottomans completely by letting Byzantium survive for the whole game. If a Ottoman-Byzantine tributary relation were to be added, there should probably be an additional event chain that automatically makes the Ottomans declare war on Byzantium, akin to the one currently in place for Delhi and Sirhind.

 

[Aquamancer]

Small note that overlords will not attack their own tributary states, which could potentially cripple the Ottomans completely by letting Byzantium survive for the whole game. If a Ottoman-Byzantine tributary relation were to be added, there should probably be an additional event chain that automatically makes the Ottomans declare war on Byzantium, akin to the one currently in place for Delhi and Sirhind.

Something along those lines could work. Alternatively, an event-chain could be made based on the peace-treaty proposed by Mehmed the Conqueror during the Siege of Constantinople: if Constantine XI surrendered the city to the Ottomans, he and the citizens of Constantinople were allowed to leave with their possessions, the remaining citizens' safety was guaranteed; in addition, the Emperor would be recognized as governor of the Peloponnese. Constantine XI, however, only agreed to pay higher tribute and recognize all the conquered lands in Ottoman hands as their possession (in game terms, war reparations and core revocation, probably), refusing to give up the city without a fight.

So perhaps this could be represented by an event, where the Ottomans offer a diplomatic approach to taking Constantinople from their tributary? If Byzantium refuses to cede Constantinople, they cease to be an Ottoman tributary and will likely be declared war upon, but if Byzantium concedes, it loses Constantinople but stays an Ottoman tributary.

 

[Vityviktor]

Small note that overlords will not attack their own tributary states, which could potentially cripple the Ottomans completely by letting Byzantium survive for the whole game. If a Ottoman-Byzantine tributary relation were to be added, there should probably be an additional event chain that automatically makes the Ottomans declare war on Byzantium, akin to the one currently in place for Delhi and Sirhind.

That would be the perfect solution for Castile and Granada too.

 

[JKiller96]

That all is too much work for a solution that already occurs in the game. Plus, I still think the tributary system does not properly explain the relationship. It's essentially just a "war reparations" relationship, not a tributary one, in game-sense.

 

[Aquamancer]

That all is too much work for a solution that already occurs in the game. Plus, I still think the tributary system does not properly explain the relationship. It's essentially just a "war reparations" relationship, not a tributary one, in game-sense.

Not necessarily. After all, work going to representing West Eurasian tributary relationships in 1444 could be used to model tributary relationships that can arise during the course of the game, like with the Ottomans or a resurgent Georgian Empire.

 

[JKiller96]

Not necessarily. After all, work going to representing West Eurasian tributary relationships in 1444 could be used to model tributary relationships that can arise during the course of the game, like with the Ottomans or a resurgent Georgian Empire.

I can't see tributaries happening in Europe. They just don't work that way. When a country makes another a tributary, that relationship is rarely broken in the game. This often leads to hordes and other Asian countries failing to conquer those lands. Widespread tributary use would lead to countries becoming tributaries and not being annexed even when they could have 100 years prior. This works for Ming and large Asian countries who don't need to conquer (and who often do not), but not for European and Middle Eastern countries.

 

[Vityviktor]

I can't see tributaries happening in Europe. They just don't work that way. When a country makes another a tributary, that relationship is rarely broken in the game. This often leads to hordes and other Asian countries failing to conquer those lands. Widespread tributary use would lead to countries becoming tributaries and not being annexed even when they could have 100 years prior. This works for Ming and large Asian countries who don't need to conquer (and who often do not), but not for European and Middle Eastern countries.

Of course this hypotetical new mode of tributaries should be different, and not simply copy the current East Asian Mandate of Heaven system. Maybe it should be more similar to the CK2 model.