Gradual removement of arbitary religions

[AirikrStrife]

A progress which already slowly taking place with adding of more religions to the game. I suggest that gradually reworking all too arbitary religious stamples (i.e. shamanism and animism) to unique religions better representing their respective nations and cultures.

Suggestions would include

"Soumenusko", the pagan religion for finno-ugric people which is already popular in several mods, as religions in provinces with finno-ugric cultures which are as of now shamanistic.

Make tengriism the main religion in provinces with yakutsk, evenki, buryat or manchu culture if they already not a part of any of the major religions.

Include native african religions in west africa and congo.

Possibilities to create more religions for native americans.

The more EUIV progresses for every expansion and patch creating more in depths mechanics this would be a fitting and probably welcomed addition to the game.

 

[Franz Limit]

Didn't they say in one of the dev diaries that they will change a lot of the northern Asian nations to Tengri? (So maybe you will see this improvement in the next patch allready)

I would love them to whipe the Shamanism etc religions of the map and replace them with more fitting religions. I kind of think that Paradox will do this eventually. (since they also added the High American religions and now the Tengri one)
I also hope that we will see that sooner rather than later.
Colonial regions which are part of the Triangle-Trade could develope voodoo in some provinces.

 

[Chlodio]

"Soumenusko", the pagan religion for finno-ugric people which is already popular in several mods, as religions in provinces with finno-ugric cultures which are as of now shamanistic.

It is actually "Suomenusko", it is two words "Suomen" which means Finland's and "usko" which means faith, but it should't be called that, because there are better alternatives such as Finnic.

 

[Zehir]

Quality over quantity. I would rather have some religions given more flavour than bland religions with no mechanics, events or anything interesting.

 

[AirikrStrife]

It is actually "Suomenusko", it is two words "Suomen" which means Finland's and "usko" which means faith, but it should't be called that, because there are better alternatives such as Finnic.

I wrote the word without checking the spelling, sorry for that mistake.

I know Suomenusko is not a contemporary 15th century name but wht I like with it compared to calling it "finnic" is the fact that finnic as word is an exonym i.e. something they never called themselves but a name which the romans I think it was made up for tribes in this area. It's latin at least. Soumi as a root word is also found in the word Sami, and perhaps also for the Samoyed peoples.

 

[FleetingRain]

Where would Suomenusko be added? I can only think of that Shamanist province in Sweden but even that would be forced, as that's representing the Sami religion which admittedly was influenced by Finnish pagans but still wasn't Suomenusko.

I also made a suggestion for West Africa in the subforum, I particularly think it's great.

 

[Chlodio]

I wrote the word without checking the spelling, sorry for that mistake.

I know Suomenusko is not a contemporary 15th century name but wht I like with it compared to calling it "finnic" is the fact that finnic as word is an exonym i.e. something they never called themselves but a name which the romans I think it was made up for tribes in this area. It's latin at least. Soumi as a root word is also found in the word Sami, and perhaps also for the Samoyed peoples.

Suomenusko is a word used by neo-pagans, there is no no evidence that they ever used it and it is highly unlikely that did, because the Finnish language changed drastically in 16th, 19th centuries. Even if they did... Even if they would have called it that it would be odd because it wasn't only practiced by the Finnish people but Estonian, Sami, Karelians, Mordvins, Perminians and other Finnic people that are now almost extinct, all these people are Finnic, but not Finnish.

 

[AirikrStrife]

Where would Suomenusko be added? I can only think of that Shamanist province in Sweden but even that would be forced, as that's representing the Sami religion which admittedly was influenced by Finnish pagans but still wasn't Suomenusko.

I also made a suggestion for West Africa in the subforum, I particularly think it's great.

Lappland, possibly in Kola and Karelia aswell. Perm's provinces aswell as provinces with uralic, samoyedic or ostyak cultures which are off currently shamanistic.

 

[AirikrStrife]

Suomenusko is a word used by neo-pagans, there is no no evidence that they ever used it and it is highly unlikely that did, because the Finnish language changed drastically in 16th, 19th centuries. Even if they did... Even if they would have called it that it would be odd because it wasn't only practiced by the Finnish people but Estonian, Sami, Karelians, Mordvins, Perminians and other Finnic people that are now almost extinct, all these people are Finnic, but not Finnish.

Finnic as a term is also a late construction. Especially when used in contrast to the word finnish. Both words are also used by other peoples to denote people of certain linguistic affiliation and never used by finnic peoples themself to describe themself. Finn as word were originally asigned to people living in the far north and there then settled to be an exonym for the ancestor of the modern finns. And then more people were discovered to be related to the finns they slapped that word on them such as "volga-finns" Mari and Mordvin groups, Finno-Permiac (Komi and udmurts). In contrast to the usage of the word "norse" as name for the norse paganism norse at least were a word in somewhat of usage to describe northern peoples, by others and by themself aswell as being based in their language aswell ("nordisk" in swedish).

The finnic peoples never had a united religion, and thus none mutual name for the differents faiths. But creating one arbitary finnish religion for all of them is at least less arbitary than to have them as shamanistic together with inuits and congolese peoples.Still the different finnish mythologies were related to each other.

A better term than Suomenusko might be Ukonusko, also that a neopagan term but more neutral than the previous.

 

[Chlodio]

@AirikrStrife

Why are you obsessed calling it by its historical/native name when all other religions have their English name? In-game Judaism isn't called Yehudah and Empire of the Romans is called by its anachronistic name.

 

[AirikrStrife]

Why are you obsessed with calling it finish? You proposed that as a better suggestion, I argue against that and suddenly I'm obsessed with an issue you're just as obsessed over.

Why having a name based on native language? In this case it sounds way better. It's already been established in several mods giving it some validity among players compared to finnic which sounds weird. Just like it sounds really weird then you're having a religion called "slavic" in the extended timeline mod. I also think it's a pretty dissent step to stop using more ore less arbitary exonyms.

In the end it's pretty arbitary since nothing is historicaly correct and we're all jus trying to find video-game simple solutions to complicated real world situations.

 

[Zelius]

What exactly are we suggesting here?

If it's just a name change after which we shove it in with the rest of the Pagan religions, then meh, I could do without.

If you want an actual religion with actual mechanics, not sure when other priorities will be done and we get around to the small corners of the world, if ever.

 

[AirikrStrife]

What exactly are we suggesting here?

If it's just a name change after which we shove it in with the rest of the Pagan religions, then meh, I could do without.

If you want an actual religion with actual mechanics, not sure when other priorities will be done and we get around to the small corners of the world, if ever.

Yes I'm talking about something like an actual religion with actual mechanics. My original post were a call for more religions around the world but the conversation got tangled in just the finnish pagan religions.

As a lot of mods already offers exactly what I'm asking the main game for it can't be too hard to handle as well as it's already in progress considering the introduction of tengriism, zoroastrism and three new native american relgions in the recent expansion. I only want to encourage this progress.

As I'm a history nerd and very anal on details this is something I car for because it creates a richer experiance of the game. It gives more flavour which could actually become playable. And I know a lot of people who play EUIV are like me, history nerds who like details, or like fliped out concepts.

Inclusion of more religions would also create more possibilities for custom nations as well as making it easier for private modding.

 

[War_lord]

Why are you obsessed with calling it finish? You proposed that as a better suggestion, I argue against that and suddenly I'm obsessed with an issue you're just as obsessed over.

Why having a name based on native language? In this case it sounds way better. It's already been established in several mods giving it some validity among players compared to finnic which sounds weird. Just like it sounds really weird then you're having a religion called "slavic" in the extended timeline mod. I also think it's a pretty dissent step to stop using more ore less arbitary exonyms.

In the end it's pretty arbitary since nothing is historicaly correct and we're all jus trying to find video-game simple solutions to complicated real world situations.

It's a consistency issue, in EU 4 everything is localised to modern English, so "Russia" instead of "Russkoye","Austrian" instead of "Österreicher" and "Judaism" instead of "Yahadut".

Using "Suomenusko" is terrible on multiple levels. It's a neo-pagan term with zero historical provenance, it breaks the consistent use of English localisation.

Most importantly, it literally translates to "Finnish Faith" in modern finnish. So it's equally as "bad" as simply calling it Finnic paganism. The trouble is, that unlike the Abramic faiths, the Northern Pagans had an oral tradition, which was actively suppressed. And also unlike the Abramic faiths, the Northern pagans didn't have a strict belief system for easy categorization by group.

Which is also the problem with creating special mechanics, we don't actually know much about the internal workings of now dead Religions that relied on oral traditions, and what we do have was usually written down by their enemies.

 

[FleetingRain]

Well, if not even Judaism has special mechanics, I'd not have a problem with those European pagans just getting nice bonuses and 1-2 special decisions and such.


The only real problem is justifying their existence. Slavic, as an example, has no way to exist in any province in the 1444 start.

 

[AirikrStrife]

Well, if not even Judaism has special mechanics, I'd not have a problem with those European pagans just getting nice bonuses and 1-2 special decisions and such.


The only real problem is justifying their existence. Slavic, as an example, has no way to exist in any province in the 1444 start.

This thread very much got stuck on anly uralic/finnic paganism. My original post were about removing shamanism and animism over the world, creating more religions. A more major and relevant change would be the introduction of african religions, adding more value to that region. Finnish paganism would be of lesser importance to the game, and at the moment the only paganism to be justified in europe (there were more pagan religions alive but they're so small they don't even have representation within the game in any way (such as paganism in the caucasus which were still alive but were by 1444 being rapidly replaced by islam or christianity) Also the native lithuanian religion wasn't extict by then (lithuania didn't convert till christianity until 1387) but by 1444 it would be on it's last sig among isolated communities and odler populations.

 

[chrnno]

A progress which already slowly taking place with adding of more religions to the game. I suggest that gradually reworking all too arbitary religious stamples (i.e. shamanism and animism) to unique religions better representing their respective nations and cultures.

Suggestions would include

"Soumenusko", the pagan religion for finno-ugric people which is already popular in several mods, as religions in provinces with finno-ugric cultures which are as of now shamanistic.

Make tengriism the main religion in provinces with yakutsk, evenki, buryat or manchu culture if they already not a part of any of the major religions.

Include native african religions in west africa and congo.

Possibilities to create more religions for native americans.

The more EUIV progresses for every expansion and patch creating more in depths mechanics this would be a fitting and probably welcomed addition to the game.

Look how many religions were added to the game since release, I don't expect the pace from here on be faster. It will be slower if anything as the most encompassing and/or easiest religions are added.

 

[Willem IV]

I agree on using the West African religion from CK2 in EU4 for the african pagans. If implemented, there are only a few provinces left.

 

[AirikrStrife]

Looking at the Religions in CK2 (a game I do not have but I'm looking on it's wiki) I see that both west african and Suomenusko is included in that game. It's probably therefrom that Suomenusko as term has been popularized in mods. I would argue convertion of these religions into EUIV as it also adds better convertion form CK2.

 

[War_lord]

Looking at the Religions in CK2 (a game I do not have but I'm looking on it's wiki) I see that both west african and Suomenusko is included in that game. It's probably therefrom that Suomenusko as term has been popularized in mods. I would argue convertion of these religions into EUIV as it also adds better convertion form CK2.

I doubt it has anything to do with mods, they just needed a name for Finnic Paganism, and as stupid a term as "Suomenusko" is, it does the job. Suomenusko does exist in EU4 if you convert a game where the religion was reformed. (Pagan religions in CK II have to be reformed to be on par with Christianity and Islam. Otherwise it converts to Pagan. Which makes sense since the Pagan category in EU4 covers every Religion that lacks a codified belief system.