Grading the Banks "buff" of Missiles

[Cordane]

# Components
* Missile cooldown reduced from 2.0-3.0 to 0.2-2.5
* Missile armor penetration changed to 0/15/30%
* Missile speed increased from 5 to 6
* Missiles now deal +10% damage vs. shields
* Missile HP have been adjusted slightly
* Weapon windup does not get cancelled when losing target during windup

Previous to the patch notes for Banks coming out, @Wiz had indicated that "Missiles are indeed being buffed." After seeing the patch notes, I will agree that yes, missiles have been buffed, but how much have they really improved, compared to the calls for changes?

The first issue of cooldown reduction was, at least to my knowledge, not a requested path for improvement but it does offer more damage per day without changing the actual damage equation per missile. It does increase the number of projectiles on screen (bad) and makes it easier to swamp PD zones (good) than before. I don't think it really helps with overkill in general, as the faster kill rate per target is offset by the larger number of missiles wasted when each target dies.

The only thing I'll say about armor penetration and bonus shield damage is 'Bout. Damn. Time.

Without knowing the extent of the hit point adjustments, I can't really give an assessment.

I'm leaving missile speed for last as this is an area that I think has had the clearest understanding of a problem and the simplest solution to it. When the patch was made that effectively doubled all weapon ranges, both missiles and strike craft maintained their original flight speeds. I don't know if this was intentional, but it effectively halved the speed of those weapons. A simple correction for this issue would have been to double the speed of these weapons to return them to their pre-patch ratios. I still don't think that even a flat +100% to those speeds would be enough to eliminate the issues that center on flight time, but it would get us a good way there.

Getting a flat +1 to (apparently just) missile flight speed is like getting a judge to rule in your favor against a big corporation, but only award you $1.00 in damages. By itself, I don't think it will help worth a damn; combined into the larger group of changes, I think it will be the (maybe second) least beneficial of the group, and I don't know at this point just how effective the whole thing will be in a vanilla game (been playing too much of heavily-modded games to keep my perspective at times). I appreciate the effort in trying to make some changes in advance of a more intensive combat overhaul, but I think there were some opportunities wasted here.

 

[Fourthspartan56]

Wiz literally called it a stop-gap measure, the intrinsic issues with missiles have not be addressed but that's the point. Banks was not focused on combat or warfare so actually addressing the issue is going to happen in a later patch/update.

 

[Ewoks_Must_Die]

Wiz mentioned in a stream that he wants to give missiles a proper makeover to make them useful.

The buffs in this expansion are just a small tweak to improve them a little bit better until they get a chance to look at at them properly and in detail.

EDIT - beaten by the above post.

 

[Cordane]

Wiz literally called it a stop-gap measure, ...

Fully understood - the increase in flight speed should have been an easy correction for IMO an earlier omission during the range increase. I stated my disappointment in the change being so small to this one thing, but I'm also not railing on about the lack of changes to PD systems, hangar regen, etc., in this patch.

 

[General Retreat]

Fully understood - the increase in flight speed should have been an easy correction for IMO an earlier omission during the range increase. I stated my disappointment in the change being so small to this one thing, but I'm also not railing on about the lack of changes to PD systems, hangar regen, etc., in this patch.

There are practical reasons for not just doubling the flight speed - for starters, modders have been tinkering with different options for improving missile performance and found that increasing speed too much leads to unforseen consequences. As an example, once projectile speed goes over a certain amount, they stop tracking and damage subsequently drops off a cliff. It wasn't entirely certain whether this was due to an engine limitation or some quirk of the way Stellaris specifically was programmed, but I imagine it'd be a non-trivial issue for the devs to fix. Given that the combat adjustments in Utopia were only ever going to be superficial, that's probably why the speed adjustments were fairly limited.

 

[Summin Cool]

If your so upset about missile balance then why not make your own mod fixing it?

Stellaris was my introduction to modding, I wasn't happy about the lack of different weapon types, fixed that for myself.

There are practical reasons for not just doubling the flight speed - for starters, modders have been tinkering with different options for improving missile performance and found that increasing speed too much leads to unforseen consequences. As an example, once projectile speed goes over a certain amount, they stop tracking and damage subsequently drops off a cliff. It wasn't entirely certain whether this was due to an engine limitation or some quirk of the way Stellaris specifically was programmed, but I imagine it'd be a non-trivial issue for the devs to fix. Given that the combat adjustments in Utopia were only ever going to be superficial, that's probably why the speed adjustments were fairly limited.

I do appreciate that the Devs are being cautious with this issue. As far as I am aware increasing missile speed to 12 has worked reasonably well - proven in Blades of Stellaris, but I don't like the affect on the missile trails that much.

 

[DarkFenX]

Does bonus shield damage make them focus different targets vs shielded fleet?

 

[The Founder]

Wiz literally called it a stop-gap measure, the intrinsic issues with missiles have not be addressed but that's the point. Banks was not focused on combat or warfare so actually addressing the issue is going to happen in a later patch/update.

That is what he said when asked about it lower down in the Thread:

It's a stopgap measure to give them some utility while we fix the more fundamental issues like retargeting and how PD works.

Regarding the Patchnotes for missiles
I was not even aware of the Windup bug. But for missiles it is fixed now too (primarily it affect XL slot weapons).
It is intersting that they finally get different HP. Thus far they always had 1, regardless of size. So larger ones might now need more shoots to kill.
The bonus to Anti-Armor and Anit-Shields finally makes them more practical. It also gives larger missiles a proper role (considering their targets lack Evasion to overcome).

It is definitely mostly a band aid, to aid the AI that is railroaded into picking Missiles. Players should propably still avoid them entirely. But the combination of changes might make the stronger then just looking at the pure values would indicate.

 

[henzington]

Let people run some sims on missles and the change to weapon spool up to see. I am hoping the change on spooling makes battleships beat out cruisers.

 

[Slynx]

I will agree that yes, missiles have been buffed, but how much have they really improved, compared to the calls for changes?

you probably will not even notice.
about week ago my friend suggested to play with some mods that buffs missiles. speed, damage, RoF, health and other parametrs. the buffs were quite high...(higher then in 1.5 patch) but after destroyers i stopped noticing missiles entirely. just like with unmodded vanilla

It does increase the number of projectiles on screen (bad)

no it doesn't. after mid game there is already max projectiles on a screen and it's less then actual missiles number

If your so upset about missile balance then why not make your own mod fixing it?

maybe you can name a mod thats changing missiles targeting ai?

 

[Cordane]

There are practical reasons for not just doubling the flight speed - for starters, modders have been tinkering with different options for improving missile performance and found that increasing speed too much leads to unforseen consequences. As an example, once projectile speed goes over a certain amount, they stop tracking and damage subsequently drops off a cliff. It wasn't entirely certain whether this was due to an engine limitation or some quirk of the way Stellaris specifically was programmed, but I imagine it'd be a non-trivial issue for the devs to fix. Given that the combat adjustments in Utopia were only ever going to be superficial, that's probably why the speed adjustments were fairly limited.

I'm fully aware of the thread that covered the effects of very high increases to missile flight speed, but the issues cropped up as speed was in the 30+ range, not in the 10-20 range. I don't see a change from base 5 speed to 10 being more than a long-overdue bug fix, but I do see a bump from 5 to 6 as being pointless in comparison.

It's a stopgap measure to give them some utility while we fix the more fundamental issues like retargeting and how PD works.

Definitely - the big issues have always been those two (along with overkill due to in-flight projectiles not being accounted for well enough by the targeting processes), as they're both huge changes, and I'm not concerned at all about those being missing from this patch.