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victimizer

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I think EU could use a better way of modelling the difficulties of governing large empires with pre-industrial technology. After all, in all of EU time-frame, communications moved at the speed of the horse or the boat. There were also no means to monitor people from great distances -- the ocean is one thing, and we have colonial nations now -- but this problem was by no means unique to the European seafaring empires. The Ottomans, Qing and Mughals suffered from similar problems. It would take weeks for information to travel and the emperor living comfortably in his capital would have no means to monitor his officials, who might be abusing his subjects with impunity.

Now with the new autonomy mechanism, I think government range could be made into a useful feature. This range would increase gradually --- VERY gradually --- with improved diplomacy technology, but it would never become a non-issue to a country. A truly global government should be essentially impossible, and most importantly, a complete economic disaster (which it would have been at the time).

Pqc4pCB.jpg


The government range would work, centered in the capital, spreading out in twin concentric circles. The first circle would embrace the region closest to the capital. This would be called the "government core" (or whatnot). Here, the central government would be at its strongest, monitoring officials and citizens with no difficulty.

The core would feature:
> conventional autonomy mechanism
> rapid autonomy decline
> cultures present in the core would be more likely to become accepted
> no autonomy limits
> smaller coring costs in provinces within reach
> cultures present in the core would also become settlers, making their appearance in colonial nations (


The second circle would embrace regions more distant from the capital, but not so distant as to enjoy no central government influence. This periphery would be where the lack of monitoring technology and the slow speed of communication already starts to limit what the administration can accomplish. In the peripheral provinces, minimum autonomy is set at 30 %. Going below this limit would be possible, but it would lead to corruption.

Corruption is the abuse of power by central government officials, who being neither monitored by the capital nor accountable to local authorities, would use their powers and lack of accountability to line their pockets at the expense of the locals. Lowering autonomy below this safe limit would give local authorities no leeway to serve as a check and balance, while the remote capital would be unable to ensure the honesty of their officials. So while lower autonomy would still give you more money and manpower from the provinces, it would also lead to intermittent destruction of development.


The periphery would feature:
> 50 % slower autonomy decline
> a 50 % to 30 % minimum autonomy limit (depending on diplo tech).
> like the core, peripheral cultures would appear in colonial nations, even if not accepted.

Outlying provinces

These provinces lay entirely outside the government range and as such pose significant difficulties to the government.

Outlying provinces would function very differently from the core, and quite differently even when compared to the periphery. Outliers would have a minimum autonomy limit set at much higher level than the periphery, at 75 % to 50 %. Likewise, going below this autonomy limit would destroy development, and the further below it you push it, the more rapid this destruction becomes.

However the outlying provinces have added difficulties. Increasing autonomy would no longer reduce revolt risk: instead any good will won by concessions would be offset by the additional, unchecked resources made available to local subversives and separatists. Leeway here is destabilizing. Below the minimum autonomy limit corruption and graft festers, but outliers would also have a maximum autonomy limit of 50 %, above which local rebels start to grow more powerful due to all the unchecked resources available to them. Therefore, owning outlying provinces would be problematic.

Closely related to my ideas on government range, is a system of corruption, which would work in a two-fold way.

Local corruption

Local corruption events would destroy local development, as explained above. Nonexistent in the core, the risk of local corruption would increase in the periphery and the outlying provinces when autonomy is set below the minimum level.

Global corruption

Every time a local corruption event is triggered, it adds points to your global corruption count. At higher levels, your global corruption begins to sap away at tax income, trade income and production income, not just in the outlying and peripheral provinces, but in the core of the country as well. Massive global corruption will lead to huge uprisings, which risks breaking your country.

Global corruption would be highly toxic to republican tradition.

Global corruption would also come with negative events, imagine nasty surprises like:

"merchants fold under corrupt tax men" (-50 dip)
"Ill-gotten gains from the provinces fund pretenders and usurpers" (-30 legitimacy)
etc.

Fighting global corruption would involve spending diplomacy points, perhaps similar to spending adm points to reduce inflation.
 
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Canute VII

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Agree!

This mechanic would also lend itself to a new idea group, linked to development and your suggested goverment and corruption mechanic.

Now just brain-storming:
- admin idea group, giving reduced development cost, higher potential admin development (if a cap would be present in the game), lower local corruption, higher radius for the core region, ...

- diplo idea group, giving higher radius for the periphery, higher potential diplo development, lower global corruption, diplo annexing colonies, creating colonies from outlier provinces...

- mil idea group, giving higher potential mil development, one additional building space ("soldiers can build") in exchange for 100 mil monarch power, lower toxity of rebels, +10 colonist growth ("sending the soldiers"), lower sending time for generals (the concept of "sending time" would have to be introduced first)...
 
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victimizer

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Yes. Ideas should allow the player to expand government range. Townhalls should reduce corruption, not revolt chance, while townhalls built in the core would increase something else, like enhance trade income.

PS. I'd like to hear from the down voters as well. My idea is based on actual historical research and the EU4 definitely needs a feature to make mega-blobs less powerful.
 
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BrokenSky

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I disagree with the concentric circles thing; it fails to account for terrain and mode of transport; Government range shouldn't decay as quickly over plains as it does though woodland, and mountains would block it entirely (though it could go round). Therefore it ought to at the very least be based on the number of in between provinces, possibly with modifiers for different terrain (e.g. x0.5 for sea, x1 for plains, steppe, famrland etc., x1.2 for forest, marsh, x1.5 for hills, x2 for mountainous. or something.).

Aside from this, Very good idea!
 
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victimizer

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I disagree with the concentric circles thing; it fails to account for terrain and mode of transport; Government range shouldn't decay as quickly over plains as it does though woodland, and mountains would block it entirely (though it could go round). Therefore it ought to at the very least be based on the number of in between provinces, possibly with modifiers for different terrain (e.g. x0.5 for sea, x1 for plains, steppe, famrland etc., x1.2 for forest, marsh, x1.5 for hills, x2 for mountainous. or something.).

Aside from this, Very good idea!

I think these variables could be imposes by other means. E.g., coastlines would have a somewhat lower autonomy minimums, but the circles shouldn't be affected by terrain necessarily. I wouldn't want it to become over-complicated (which could mean un-moddable, un-intuitive) .
 

BrokenSky

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I think these variables could be imposes by other means. E.g., coastlines would have a somewhat lower autonomy minimums, but the circles shouldn't be affected by terrain necessarily. I wouldn't want it to become over-complicated (which could mean un-moddable, un-intuitive) .

Ok fair enough on most of the terrain things, but i do feel that it should decay far less over long distances by sea than by land. If you look at your map you'll notice that if you say core is within 2 provinces and periphery is between 3-5 with outlyers being in excess of this, it matches up quite well for the most part, even including most coastal provinces, though it makes it a lot easier for coastal provinces which would be outlyers to become periphery, which is what I intend with this suggestion.

Impassible wasteland / mountains still blocks it in this suggestion; you have to count going round, not over, the mountains.


Edit: Suggestion: government rank affects range and minimum autonomy such that duchies have lower range (say 0-1/2-4/5+ but also less minimum autonomy in each region, so a small nation which is very spread out (trade republic for example) gets a better deal at long range than larger ones. I'd also suggest giving merchant and possibly dutch republics (maybe others?) reduced minimum autonomy at long the longest range.

Edit2: I'm not sure about corruption destroying development being a good idea. It'd work better if it made it harder to increase development and reduced income and manpower from the provinces (i.e. hurting the bonuses you get, but not the province itself. You still get the trade power though).
 
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Imperial horses don't ride any faster than ducal horses, do they? The point is to model the concrete limitations of premodern technology. Diplo tech could be used to represent improved accounting practices, streamlined petition systems, which have some effect. But the main problem persists; there are no phones or cameras, etc.

Corruption destroying development is meant to model the lack of effective public goods; weak property rights among them. Tax farmers and officials take advantage of their position to ransack private businesses and neglect their duty guard public infrastructure. Hence development is damaged.
 
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Imperial horses don't ride any faster than ducal horses, do they? The point is to model the concrete limitations of premodern technology. Diplo tech could be used to represent improved accounting practices, streamlined petition systems, which have some effect. But the main problem persists; there are no phones or cameras, etc.

Corruption destroying development is meant to model the lack of effective public goods. Tax farmers and officials take advantage of their position to ransack private businesses and neglect their duty guard public infrastructure. Hence development is damaged.

I'd imagine a duchy would be smaller and more tightly run than a kingdom; it's not about how far the horses can run, its about how far you can get from the seat of power before actual power becomes theoretical power; how far the influence of the government can get within the nation. I'm suggesting this balance for duchies partially for game play purposes (as it stands the Italian merchant republic's overseas holdings would be all but worthless quite quickly, if i have understood the plan correctly) but also because i imagine that if you had a smaller realm it would be easier to administrate the lands you had with less room for corruption, but the authority of the government would drop off sooner.

Wrt destroying development this can be just as well modeled by reducing all the benefits of the development; if new management came in (for example if the region was conquered) it would take far less effort to get everything running again than building from scratch. Presumably the corruption wouldn't go away over night of course (it would probably leave an on province modifier which took some time to decay?). The other problem with this is that corruption doesn't endlessly degrade provinces. It declines somewhat, based on how developed the region is, until it reaches an equilibrium based on what the corrupt individuals think they can get away with.
 

ThePatriotOfDreumel

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Thanks for giving PDX ideas for how to nerf Hordes. Hordes have huge shitty provinces, and this would ruin their already non-existant economy.
 
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User4035

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I suggested a very similar thing way back when I suggested they introduce cover ment ranks.


I hope the new changes to regions will make stuff like this more doable.
 

AndrejK

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I would say that deciding which provinces are in periphery and outlying should be decided by the travel time for troops or fleets from capital to the province.
As with outlying provinces I guess they should be split into nearer and further outlying (making four not three)
Imagine Russia with Petersburg as capital. Novgorod would still be core, Kazan periphery and then whole of Siberia outlying? What? ? It made some difference between Omsk and Kamchatka, didn't it?

Yes I agree with the range based on ranks from duchies to kingdoms to empires. Empires should lose the negative effects a little bit.

As with communication on sea (e.g. Venice) it should be relative to strength of navy. If Venice loses its fleet the islands of Crete and Cyprus (if conquerred) will do what they want
 
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victimizer

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I think tying the government range to state rank is stupid. My idea is grounded in the real limitations of technology, which wasn't affected by whether you wore the crown of an emperor or the crownlet of a duke. The whole problem with Empires at the time was that as their aggragate population and territorial gains increased, their increasingly distracted states failed to stamp out abuses and corruption, which weakened intensive development and growth.

Imperial horses don't go any faster than a royal horses. Imperial courts are not any better at handling petitions: in fact, the sheer size of their realm meant they were usually overwhelmed.
 
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BrokenSky

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I think tying the government range to state rank is stupid. My idea is grounded in the real limitations of technology, which wasn't affected by whether you wore the crown of an emperor or the crownlet of a duke. The whole problem with Empires at the time was that as their aggragate population and territorial gains increased, their increasingly distracted states failed to stamp out abuses and corruption, which weakened intensive development and growth.

Imperial horses don't go any faster than a royal horses. Imperial courts are not any better at handling petitions: in fact, the sheer size of their realm meant they were usually overwhelmed.

You think that the main thing determining how well an empire is run is the speed of information travel? by that logic the modern western world would be perfectly run in a way which had no corruption at all.

The main purpose of my suggestions with regard to tying it to rank was so that small duchies weren't perfectly efficient, but also didn't suffer as harsh penalties for being a bit big, and so large world spanning empires (e.g. British, French, ottoman etc) didn't just instantly crumble, and so that provinces which were owned by for example large European empires in, say, india didn't become less developed that that of their native neighbors.
For example, as I understand, the way the English held overseas control here often was by proxy (vassals/protectorate/high local autonomy) while the Dutch and Portuguese took the route of staying small but spread out. Hence the suggestions I made were not designed to represent differing speeds of horses but different managerial styles, where capacity in one area was traded off for capacity in another. It has nothing to do with technology of horses or boats.
 

victimizer

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You think that the main thing determining how well an empire is run is the speed of information travel?

I don't just think so. The evidence we have from the study Ottoman and Qing empires is pretty convincing that the problem they had was the lack of state capacity combined with vast holdings -- and also a tendency to centralize power in order to more easily realize their aggregate gains.

by that logic the modern western world would be perfectly run in a way which had no corruption at all.

The modern western world has fairly little corruption compared to the ex-ottoman holdings, India, Russia and China -- regions which were consolidated by the gunpowder empires before communication and monitoring technology became available.
 

BrokenSky

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The modern western world has fairly little corruption compared to the ex-ottoman holdings, India, Russia and China -- regions which were consolidated by the gunpowder empires before communication and monitoring technology became available.

Comparatively perhaps, but if the only factor for corruption were travel time for information, we would expect corruption to tend to zero as information conveyance time reached zero. This we do not observe and hence we are force to conclude that it isn't the only factor.

Similarly we would expect nations of similar technological progress and size to have similar rate of change of corruption. Again this is not the case. Both those empires you mentioned had large inland areas - perhaps then the solution is that ship travel replaced horse in other, more maritime empires of the period? I don't actually know. Maybe this is the actual reason.

Either way the main reasons for the difference in penalties for different ranks is to represent the effects of being large compared to being spread out; spread out nations have less corruption than large ones. The reason for the differing ranges is partially for balance and partially to represent the drop off in authority, which I think is also a significant part of corruption. If travel time represents the probability of getting caught, then authority represents how bad getting caught would be in the theoretical cost benefit equation anyone who is able to balance being corrupt with being not a big enough of a problem to deal with will be subconsciously making.
 

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I like this suggestion. A great way to make this balance would to add administrative capitals. For example, the Ottomans had a client state in Eygpt before their collapse.
 
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FatHippo

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I like this suggestion. A great way to make this balance would to add administrative capitals. For example, the Ottomans had a client state in Eygpt before their collapse.

But isn't a client state simply a kind of vassal? This change would make vassals far more valuable however! Previously, I only created vassals to feed them, or to avoid the unaccepted cultures penalty. But with this kind of system, creating vassals would be almost unavoidable due to the range constraints of your administration.

For the actual implementation, I would also give my support to using the number of provinces from your capitol, rather than physical room on the map, as the measure of administrative range, as BrokenSky previously suggested. So as an example, let's say at diplomatic tech 3, you have a range of 5, and different province-types require more points than others.

Sea: 0.5
Plains/Farmland/etc.:1
Woods/Hills:1.5
Marshes/Mountains:2

So every province tries to find the shortest path to your capitol, and if the distance reaches over 5, it is considered part of the "periphery". Everything over the range of 10 would then be in the "outliers". This would also make coastal provinces valuable. Taking a look at the Ottomans, many of their provinces in Anatolia and Greece would actually be connected via their sea tiles, enabling efficient administration of large swathes of land. Provinces in places like the Caucasus and the Balkans would become part of the periphery. If the Ottomans try to extend furth south into the Arabian Peninsula and Persia, these would probably become part of the outliers. (Though I'd have to count the provinces and check for type to be sure of anything.) Other countries, such as Russia, would experience far greater difficulties with this, though it seems appropriate for Russia.

As your tech advances, your range also increases, up to 10 for the periphery, 20 for the outliers, perhaps. Or maybe the range should be decreased in general, this would require testing.
 
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victimizer

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Provinces in places like the Caucasus and the Balkans would become part of the periphery. If the Ottomans try to extend furth south into the Arabian Peninsula and Persia, these would probably become part of the outliers.

I think you're are making it rather too easy. These distances are simply massive.

Still, I agree that instead of arbitrary lines, geography should account for more.
 
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BrokenSky

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I think you're are making it rather too easy. These distances are simply massive.

Still, I agree that instead of arbitrary lines, geography should account for more.

Yeah I think 0-2/3-5/6+ for tech level 3. That would cover most of the region in the circle without, for example, screwing over the hordes as was commented on.