Government Ethical (Dis)Attraction

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Alblaka

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Alright, time for round 2.
Simple premise: Go for Psionic Ascension, and have a 100% unified Spiritual-Authroritarian Population. Sounds easy enough, right?

Now, I did ensure that a Temple was the first thing to be built in each Colony. Additionally, the Information Quarantine edict was active from the start of the game and I stacked every other possible Governmental Ethic Attractiveness stat I could find.
How did my empire's ethics turn out?
contraruler.jpg
Why is it, that a spiritualist empire focussed on uniting goverment ethics (including ConfirmistsTrait), ends up with % all over the place, including MATERIALISTS, and 5 different factions?!
To put things into context, and to debunk the people saying "You're not supposed to have no factions";
why is it that my Spiritualist-Control empire has this many (contradicting) attractions, whilst my previous-run egalitarian 'everyone go do whatever' empire had exactly 2, later 3, all intentionally wanted and supported, factions over the entire game.

Read: +155% Governmental Attraction causes wide ethical variations, -25% Governmental Attraction (from the Open Mind Edict in the mentioned 'other playthrough') ensures conformity.
I feel like either there's a severe glitch with Governmental Attraction CAUSING Ethical Divergence, Governmental Attraction being worth nothing, or some other hilarious design oversight.


Now, some beef with Imperialism:
Didn't some dev diary state that a player should have some form of intervening with Heirs & Heritage?
Because opposed to all other government forms, where you pick a leader and can therefore affect his skill, I kept getting new level-1 rulers.
CrapEmperor.jpg
And, to make things worse, isn't Imperial government the Authoritarian thing. Where you are supposed to have a strong, unified guiding hand.
Then why is it that this is the only goverment where you'll have RANDOM FACTIONS promoted by your randomly generated Heirs becoming Ruler?
Shouldn't they at the very least pick their faction from the governmening ones?

Somehow, this all doesn't add up. Democratic multi-species-cultural empires have super-uniform ethics, but a single (well, dual with the 3 uplifted pops) Spiritualist Confirmist Authoritarian empire ends up with countless factions? Shouldn't it be EXACTLY the opposite way?



Anyways, here are some other impressions from my game:

Why is Influence Production from Planets still a thing in the interface?
0InfluenceAlways.jpg
There literallyis nothing in the game anymore that can produce Influence planet-side. Yes, even the Galactic Complex (which afaik was the only building to ever produce Influence in first place) generates Unity instead.


At some point, I colonized a planet with some Pre-Sentients. Nice little ape's, I would go and englighten them at some point.
AlienSlaves2.jpg
By the time I had the tech for that, I had a Xenophile faction.
Now, in respect of the religious foundation of my empire, I decided to give aliens the same default rights as my own species.Which are, Caste System and otherwise normal Authoritarian rights.
After uplifting the Pre-Sentients,it turned out that the Xenophile faction strongly disapproved of that logic:
AlienSlaves.jpg
So, apparently, Caste System on Xenos is intolerable, even if it is the default for your primary species as well?
I strongly feel that Xenophiles should only complain about Caste System 'Slaves' if your primary species has better living standards/citizen rights.


As well, didn't they claim to have added a bandaid against same-colored empires, by making each new empire that uses the same color a different shade?
Pretty sure these are the same shades of dark teal:
same color.jpg


And why is it that, still, Genetic Modification is a mess that doesn't seem intuitive or reasonable at all:
geneticstupidity.jpg geneticstupidity2.jpg
After unlocking it, I naturally went ahead and started adopting my species to the various sub-planet-types it livedon.
And I was once again reminded that it is still cheaper to modify the habitaton AND REMOVE A NEGATIVE trait, than just altering former.
I mean, this is old news for anyone who ever played Stellaris, but I kinda expected them to check and fix this whilst adding Genetic Ascension.
(Note, I obviously did not have Genetic Ascension here, but that doesn't matter for the existence of this oversight.)


A hilarious note on slave rebellions:
Throughout the entire game, my 10 built Psy Armies rocked anything I threw them at. The only thing even remotely an obstacle was a particular custom-made species (aka, one of my former playthroughs) with Resilent+VeryStrong.
However, cruising about, leading 1-3 wars at once, at one point I dropped my Psi-Armies on the FULLY BOMBARDED planet of a 1-planet-minor.
forfreedome.jpg
A few days after landing, I suddenly got a report of my general dieing and I managed to take a screen of it. Apparently, this 1-planet former-slave-rebellion is the only planetin the entire galaxy able to defend against my elite psychic assault armies (15er stack with PSI Commando upgrade)
Because they're an absurd boatload of former slaves with +80% army damage for magical reasons.
Sidenote, shouldn't the maxcap of armies on a planet equal the planet's size?


Now, as I ended up capping out Unity anyways, finishing my 6th Tradition around 140 years in, I ended up picking Discovery (intentionally late, because, duh, that's Materialism).
I feel like, maybe, someone didn't think that 'Survey to get Bonus Tech Points' mechanic through:
sciencestack.jpg
Then again, eventually I will have surveyed the whole galaxy and then the points will start decreasing.
I hope.


But turns out my gameplay was ended rather apruptly by another mechanic I didn'T quite expect.
You see, opposed to going Pacifist, or Conquering, this game I went for early Domination and proceeded to Vassalize/Tributary all otehr empires.
I had ~70% of the galaxy under my Spiritual Boots, when War In the Heaven triggered.
Well, I didn't exactly expect to have too big of a chance here, since my fleet measured ~50k, but hey, maybe me and my impromptu vassal swarm could do it?
warinthefu.jpg
Well, no. Turns out that triggering the War In Heavens instantly (and without notification) dropkicked most of my vassals away and into AFE sattelites, leaving me only with the Hivemind and two Xenophobe Isolationist vassals.
I REALLY think that subjects shouldn't be able to bypass their subject status that easily. Especially because it makes the concept of ruling by Dominion completely impossible.
(Needless to say, this was game over, because I lost a large portion of my fleet cap and an excessive amount of my tributary-income-based energy supply.)


But hey, at least I got to mess around with the Shroud. Which proved entertaining, albeit VERY underwhelming compared to both other Ascension paths.
Albeit I'll be fair and not spoiler anything here.
 
Last edited:

adeera

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Concerning Ethics attraction, up to some point I had like 80% Spiritualist attraction in my empire suddenly it dropped to 0 and my pops started joining all other Ethics. I didnt know what to do since I was stacking Ethics attraction really high. Well I activated freethought and Spiritualist attraction was back to like 75%. Seems there is a bug if you stack too much attraction it gets to 0 or something like that. Almost ruined my game.
 

krios41

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Well, no. Turns out that triggering the War In Heavens instantly (and without notification) dropkicked most of my vassals away and into AFE sattelites, leaving me only with the Hivemind and two Xenophobe Isolationist vassals.
Good thing i started integrating my biggest vassal then, seing that a SPiritualist FE is about to get beaten by another empire... I hope i can finish integrating my vassal before the WiH triggers. (195 months! it was originaly a 1 planet minor, but i kept feeding it planets during wars)
 

Alblaka

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Concerning Ethics attraction, up to some point I had like 80% Spiritualist attraction in my empire suddenly it dropped to 0 and my pops started joining all other Ethics. I didnt know what to do since I was stacking Ethics attraction really high. Well I activated freethought and Spiritualist attraction was back to like 75%. Seems there is a bug if you stack too much attraction it gets to 0 or something like that. Almost ruined my game.

This seems highly unlikely (because I cannot fathom a formula or implementation where gaining > X of a positive % modifier would actually make it go 'full cycle' negative), albeit it would fit the results.
 

Promethian

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The thing is, you can look at the tooltips and see exactly what is bringing those attractions up. Just like you did with the xenophile and saw its a leader thing. You have identified a problem with the imperial leader selecting a random faction (should always go authoritarian). Why is it such a problem for you to look at the others and see the causes? Still a little bit of knowledge can ID where the other sources are coming from. You probably have some strong pops which is where that bit of militarist attraction is coming from. It also looks like you have a green dot on the long lasting peace policy on the pacifist faction so there is your pacifist attraction. Considering you do have xenos, based on the red dot on the enslaved xenos xenophile faction policy, you also probably somewhat recently conquered someone. They keep their old ethics and take time to switch over but they will make factions in the mean time. Also your tooltip shows your spiritualist faction is going to grow as its overall attraction is higher than current pop %.

Aside from the stupidity of the authoritarian leader not having authoritarian ethics I see a whole lot of working as intended.
 

Alblaka

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I see a whole lot of working as intended.
Of course the screenshot doesn't display all of it, but yes, there are 'reasonable influences' for each of the attractions and I checked them. I had varying attraction values for 6 Ethics and pops of all 8 ethics present in my empire (even on 0% attractiveness ethics).

That doesn't change the issue, however, that this spawns factions this easily, whereas in my other game, with negative Government Ethci attractiveness and the SAME/similar influences I did not have any faction issues.

The issue is not having factions/influences as a 'trying to be uniform' empire, the issue is a 'trying to be uniform' empire having far more differing ethics and factions then a 'trying to be multi-culture' empire.

Albeit, depending on how ridicolous it was implemented, the sole cause COULD be some weird RNG, given the test sample size for above observations is literally 1+1. Which is why I made this thread to steer attention at it and gather observations from other players.
 

krios41

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? Still a little bit of knowledge can ID where the other sources are coming from
I can't get rid of an egalitarian faction
i checked what caused the atraction and this is what i get:
  • Active faction (gives ethics atraction)
  • Authoritarian regime (pushes them away)
So, to me it seems that i can't get rid of the faction by supressing them for the sole teh faction exists.
 

Alblaka

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I can't get rid of an egalitarian faction
Afaik you can't get rid of any factions.
Whenever you have at least 1 pop of an ethic, a faction can be created, and once a faction is created, automatically 5 pops will join that faction.
It does not appear like a faction can ever have less then 5 pops, therefore you cannot remove factions, only suppress them into hopefully becoming a neglectably small part of your empire.
 

krios41

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Afaik you can't get rid of any factions.
Whenever you have at least 1 pop of an ethic, a faction can be created, and once a faction is created, automatically 5 pops will join that faction.
It does not appear like a faction can ever have less then 5 pops, therefore you cannot remove factions, only suppress them into hopefully becoming a neglectably small part of your empire.
So basicly... I shouldn't even bother with supressing them? If i can't get rid of them i migh aswel not do this since it would result in a net gain in happines
I shouldn't bother with mind controll lazers?
If i can't please them, i should just ignore them?
What's teh point of all these governemnt ethics atraction then...
 

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I am almost certain government ethos attraction isn't working.
It is. Its just not that strong on its own. There is a recent devpost that states different factors are multiplicative. So if empire ethics is all you have its going to get overcome by something with multiple factors. Its actually a rather serious problem for spiritualist. All spiritualist has before a max cost tier 2 rare tech is diplomatic ties with another spiritualist empire. My current game I maintained spiritualist ties but I couldn't get a faction to spawn until I finally got Psy Theory. Getting it spiked my spiritualist attraction to the top and now I have a large number of happy latent psychic spiritualists. Spiritualist just needs something else to provide attraction and have the Psy Theory contribution reduced a bit so it even out in the end. The faction likes having a theocratic government type (watch the name). I suggest making that contribute to spiritualist like democracy does to egalitarian.
 

necros962

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huh are the of the government ethos attraction not appearing on the individual pop tool tips then? I tested it earlier and there was no change to ethos effects with or without the spiritualist government type. So if it is working the beta tool tips are broken.

"I have come across a problem involving either the tool tips or the actual modifiers in game. Firstly my population in general seems not to be following the predicted ethics divergence within the empire screen. which made me a bit suspicious so I started toying around with the modifiers on your pops and checking each individual pops predicted chance to go to a specific ethic. To test this I created a faction with the fanatic spiritualist ethic, authoritarianism and syncratic evolution. The enslaved pops on my planet should generate pressure towards xenophobia and this should act as the variable without government ethics attraction.

Species with fanatical spiritualism:
index.php

index.php


Faction without Fanatical spiritualism:
index.php

index.php


As can be seen there is no effect on the modifier relative to each individual pop. I also allowed the month to tick over on both of these games, nothing changed. It may be that these modifiers are calculated on a yearly interval but that would be quite strange. I also tested this with the information quarantine edict and conformist trait and there seemed to be no change."
 

nfmarque

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Why is it, that a spiritualist empire focussed on uniting goverment ethics (including ConfirmistsTrait), ends up with % all over the place, including MATERIALISTS, and 5 different factions?!
To put things into context, and to debunk the people saying "You're not supposed to have no factions";
why is it that my Spiritualist-Control empire has this many (contradicting) attractions, whilst my previous-run egalitarian 'everyone go do whatever' empire had exactly 2, later 3, all intentionally wanted and supported, factions over the entire game.

Read: +155% Governmental Attraction causes wide ethical variations, -25% Governmental Attraction (from the Open Mind Edict in the mentioned 'other playthrough') ensures conformity.
I feel like either there's a severe glitch with Governmental Attraction CAUSING Ethical Divergence, Governmental Attraction being worth nothing, or some other hilarious design oversight.

I think Governmental Attraction is not working,
i had test where i had stack governmental attraction + the edict + mind control and i waited 50 years and watched a egalitarian free pop never change its ethos, on home planet , it brew new ethos pops what makes no sense what so ever.