Government Capacity too low

[giovdb]

I like the idea of Government Capacity, and I know the point of it is to limit expansion. BUT, it's TOO restrictive right now. At first I thought it wasn't going to be a big deal because you can pay 20 government reform points to increase capacity by 20. But I didn't know is that 20 capacity is nothing. It doesn't even cover a full state... not even by half if it's a decent state. And the ever-increasing cost each time you do it adds up way too fast. In the previous system, it took a while to get to the point where you had double the states in territories. Now some nations already start at their caps, while others can get there within a war or too. It's far too restricting. Not to mention that malus from going over is FAR worse than corruption. Corruption was only money, this is money (advisors), increased AE, and increased monarch point usage. It's far too devastating.

Here are some possible solutions:

1) Drastically increase the starting capacity. At least double.
2) Either increase the amount of capacity you get from spending gov reforms points, or decrease or eliminate the increasing cost (I think 20 for 20 in perpetuity is fair... those points are precious).
3) Decrease the amount of capacity used by states.
4) Decrease maluses for going over cap (I think the other options are better fixes)

What are your thoughts?

 

[Vulkandrache]

What exactly is "perfectly restictive" early game for you?

I played one game as Dithmarshen. For shits and giggles i was full stating everything in germany which is where i stayed at first.
By 1520 i reached the Cap for the first time and it did not get any better than this until i just gave up by 1620.

And thats with me playing in the HRE, the most restricitve place to expand simply because of the AE.
And having 1/3 of my Dev (some Estonia/Scandinavia and the british Isles held by Vassals.

Imagine if i did sensible things, like no-Cb Georgia, to open up new fronts.

And yes. What i predicted weeks ago came true.
Exploiting development on cooldown is now the way to play.
And you know how whenever you hit the pointcap you would dev up a random province yes?
Its now better to waste the points instead.

If you use Courthouses and Town Halls Government Capacity is fairly easy to manage, in my experience.

Yeah? Thats one of the reasons why i gave up.
With the AI spaming trash buildings in every province you end up wanting to kill a kitten.

In the old days you would still do that for manufacturies but you only really needed to do India to secure enough money to cover your needs.
Now you have to go through every province to make room for townhalls and every state to select the worst province for the GovCap Manufactury.

Why do townhalls not give an extra buildingslot so you can just build them everywhere given the cashflow?

Now that we have multiple types of Manus why can they not be replaced with each other? Why do i have to delete the old one first.

Did anyone actualy sit down and play out atleast a semi-WC to see wether players should be subjected to this nonsense?

 

[giovdb]

What exactly is "perfectly restictive" early game for you?

I played one game as Dithmarshen. For shits and giggles i was full stating everything in germany which is where i stayed at first.
By 1520 i reached the Cap for the first time and it did not get any better than this until i just gave up by 1620.

And thats with me playing in the HRE, the most restricitve place to expand simply because of the AE.
And having 1/3 of my Dev (some Estonia/Scandinavia and the british Isles held by Vassals.

Imagine if i did sensible things, like no-Cb Georgia, to open up new fronts.

And yes. What i predicted weeks ago came true.
Exploiting development on cooldown is now the way to play.
And you know how whenever you hit the pointcap you would dev up a random province yes?
Its now better to waste the points instead.


Yeah? Thats one of the reasons why i gave up.
With the AI spaming trash buildings in every province you end up wanting to kill a kitten.

In the old days you would still do that for manufacturies but you only really needed to do India to secure enough money to cover your needs.
Now you have to go through every province to make room for townhalls and every state to select the worst province for the GovCap Manufactury.

Why do townhalls not give an extra buildingslot so you can just build them everywhere given the cashflow?

Now that we have multiple types of Manus why can they not be replaced with each other? Why do i have to delete the old one first.

Did anyone actualy sit down and play out atleast a semi-WC to see wether players should be subjected to this nonsense?

So... I'm the OP and I'll contradict myself a little bit here...

Now that I've played further, once you reach Town Halls the problems do away, mostly because of the vast amounts of cash. I literally dropped Town Halls in every available province (without checking the max building provinces), except West Africa, as I just took all that in one go. If I wanted to make it even better, I could check each full province to see if it has a Town Hall. The manufacture that additionally reduces GC is also great, especially when used in a low development glass or paper province (but unfortunately can't be built with a mill, but at this point it doesn't matter). Here's where I'm at:

Before anyone asks, I'm not using all my merchants because I don't want to hit 1K income... I want to get to 1M troops first for the Hegemony.

Side note: My Max Absolutism is at 104, and that's with keeping one estate privilege, and without Golden Age or the Court and Country disaster. I feel like that disaster may actually be worth it again so you can keep more privileges.

I still feel like GC is too restrictive in the early game, but I retract what I said earlier about WC not being possible.

 

[Vulkandrache]

Just like older patches the possibility of WC was never in question.
The question is: Is it fun?

The thing with the buildings (if you want to be efficient) is so bad im willing to call it intentional to keep people from wanting to expand more.
And thats coming from someone who regularly has Cathedrals in 70%+ of the worlds provinces for doing different OFs.

Also you are almost at capacity and you dont own that much land.

because I don't want to hit 1K income... I want to get to 1M troops first for the Hegemony.

Does that mean you only get to pick one of them? The heck.

 

[giovdb]

Just like older patches the possibility of WC was never in question.
The question is: Is it fun?

The thing with the buildings (if you want to be efficient) is so bad im willing to call it intentional to keep people from wanting to expand more.
And thats coming from someone who regularly has Cathedrals in 70%+ of the worlds provinces for doing different OFs.

Also you are almost at capacity and you dont own that much land.


Does that mean you only get to pick one of them? The heck.

Yes, you only get one Hegemon (which is good, as they are OP), but what I didn't know is that you actually have to hit the button. So I could have reached 1K income and just waited for the military one.

I've now built Town Halls in every single one of my provinces that had free building slots, and I'm at capacity. I just started building the manufactury State House in every single state. Once they are done we'll see how much capacity it will open up. After that I'd have to micro manage and delete buildings (hopefully it won't come to that). Also keep in mind that everything I own outside of Europe is TC. I take back my take back, and revert to my OP. Town Halls are not enough. Again, I like the system, but it needs to be tweaked for balance and playability. The whole point of Hegemon was to make WCs less tedious, but Governing Capacity takes a massive step back.

 

[Tsadiq]

Y'all have been given a full toolbox. We have so many tools at our disposal, but instead throw a tantrum, because you don't want to.



A admin tech 8 duchy(!) can hold about 1000 development without the use of Expand Administration. Come on!

In my quick test, I held about the territory Ottomans had in their historical peak. ONLY STATES. Positive income (+4.61/month) with full maintenance (land & navy). 1.99 ducats/month over force limit (land & navy). Level 2 advisors (without any discounts). Only courthouses and about workshops (~20)/churches (~20).

This is easily achievable on a regular playthrough. I was barely over the capacity (72 reform progress to fix).

(Furthermore, if you want to complain about the use of "Land Rights". It's admin tech 8! By the time absolutism hits you have another 100 from tech 12 and soon thereafter 250 from tech 17 + 400 from Empire (I tested as Duchy) + you can hit 100 absolutism WITH estate privileges in most cases.)

 

[lionboy33]

I think admin efficiency should increase government capacity. I mean, it's in the name really. Better administration should allow you to govern more developement

 

[giovdb]

Y'all have been given a full toolbox. We have so many tools at our disposal, but instead throw a tantrum, because you don't want to.



A admin tech 8 duchy(!) can hold about 1000 development without the use of Expand Administration. Come on!

In my quick test, I held about the territory Ottomans had in their historical peak. ONLY STATES. Positive income (+4.61/month) with full maintenance (land & navy). 1.99 ducats/month over force limit (land & navy). Level 2 advisors (without any discounts). Only courthouses and about workshops (~20)/churches (~20).

This is easily achievable on a regular playthrough. I was barely over the capacity (72 reform progress to fix).

(Furthermore, if you want to complain about the use of "Land Rights". It's admin tech 8! By the time absolutism hits you have another 100 from tech 12 and soon thereafter 250 from tech 17 + 400 from Empire (I tested as Duchy) + you can hit 100 absolutism WITH estate privileges in most cases.)

Who is ranting? Or complaining? I said I like the changes and made some suggestions for improvement. Look at my post right before yours. I'm still very far from a WC, have tech 26 or 27 (don't remember), have Town Halls in all my provinces that had free building slots, and I'm at capacity. And I'm using a ton of subjects as I revoked the privilegia, and mostly TC land. On my next admin tech, I do get an additional 250 GC, so that will help. But that will soon get filled up as well. When all my State Houses finish, I might be okay though, so we'll see.

 

[giovdb]

I think admin efficiency should increase government capacity. I mean, it's in the name really. Better administration should allow you to govern more developement

Excellent suggestion.

 

[Lightwell]

If you develop your provinces instead of conquering new one's you will start earning more money sooner, and if you combine it with a Court House and other modifiers you can get 3 development in a province for every Governing Capacity. Additionally by not going out to conquer every province your average autonomy is a lot lower which means you earn more Governing Capacity much faster and can then expand your nation even further.

And if you're playing as a coastal/tropical country without dev cost modifiers?

 

[giovdb]

@prey2112 Thank you for the disrespectful disagreements in almost all of my posts in this thread. I am anxiously waiting for your late game screenshots showing a vast world-conquering empire with GC under control. Thank you.

 

[kar253]

Gov capacity is simply BORING now. You can manage it with buildings, ok, but when you don't have a big income OR didn't reach high enough tech (so essentially - in early game) it's sometimes just waiting and waiting and waiting, doing nothing, conquering provinces for vasals. And I think this mechanic is kinda tiring, because admin ideas now are somehow must have (not only for wc, but, for example, builidng european empire), so you don't have as much builds to choose as before.

 

[SpaceCat007]

I think on every problem such as fast expansion should be a solution. Till now it was making sure coalition would not create. Doing certain decisions such as feeding land to vassals or making more ccc, lower ae nad of course rebel suppression with unrest reduction or other mechanisms. Now you have 1 option and it's not like it's interesting. And if there could be other factors to slower expansion without making it impossible or unbearable. for example it could be certain polices or something less tedious as building certain building in EVERY possible province.

 

[giovdb]

I just finished a WC as Austria (check out my other thread if interested). With the amount of vassals Austria has, it's manageable. But it would be a lot more tedious with anyone else, especially OPMs outside Europe.

 

[Vulkandrache]

A this point im not even sure ill even get to see GovCap in meaningful action as the merc changes have killed my enjoyment of the game well before that.
So i cant comment further for now.

 

[giovdb]

A this point im not even sure ill even get to see GovCap in meaningful action as the merc changes have killed my enjoyment of the game well before that.
So i cant comment further for now.

Why are you so upset with the merc changes? I feel like that's a lot better now IMO.

 

[Uebeltank]

IMO territories shouldn't contribute nearly as much to it as they do. I also think stated provinces should maybe have a cap towards how much development contributes to it. Maybe cap it at 20-30 development.

 

[giovdb]

IMO territories shouldn't contribute nearly as much to it as they do. I also think stated provinces should maybe have a cap towards how much development contributes to it. Maybe cap it at 20-30 development.

I agree with stated dev cap. I don't agree with the territories suggestion. They are fine as they are, otherwise they would discourage TCs too much.

 

[Vulkandrache]

Why are you so upset with the merc changes? I feel like that's a lot better now IMO.

Siege down 2 forts and fight a battle and your manpower is gone.
Fighting battles is now even less worth it.

Especially funny if you play as someone like Dithmarschen without the Nobility and their lul 50% extra manpower.
Its amazing expanding for 50 years to finaly hit the point were you make 200 men per month.
And then you get the magical Netherlands revolt which is still bullshit and blow 3 years of manpower on a single event spawn.

Impossible to build up any Prof over time.

Building barracks for something 4 manpower/month feels real good.

The Manpower manufactury should come at like tech 6, not 15 when the games almost over.

The merc stack micro just to have them work on a basic level is horrendous.

Mercs should either not take up any forcelimit at all or only a fraction or your biggest hired company should not count against FL.

The regiments should instantly reinforce to full from their manpower pool, not take months.

 

[Canute VII]

Before anyone asks, I'm not using all my merchants because I don't want to hit 1K income... I want to get to 1M troops first for the Hegemony.

Now that made me cringe:

1. econ hegemony gives additional gov capacity and you complain about what exactly? gov capacity?
2. you know that it's entirely your decision to hit the button, even if you fulfill the conditions?

 

[Vulkandrache]

Oh yeah, the Hegemons.
I dont have them but:
They are a meme level bonus either for the very end or for dedicated bullshit.
Not being able to take all 3 makes the whole thing pointless.