Got my first plot to work - so satisfying!

[oddible]

Finally got a plot to work. I'd been slowly growing my Satake lands while watching Uesugi grow even faster right along side me. For a while I tried to stay on their good side through marriages and gifts but I wanted to keep warring and they started getting anxious (sending ninjas after me). At that point I turned to heavy ninja use focusing on their honor to keep it low enough that they wouldn't declare on me - it actually didn't work because they declared war on the Osaki to my north. According to the ledger their army was in the 110000 range and mine was around 68000 with Osaki around 27000. I figured this was either my opportunity to snack on another big neighbor, to opportunistically jump in against the Osaki and see what crumbs I could get, or to see if a plot would work (the massive death stacks rushing north through my territory indicated to me that a direct attack on the Uesugi would have been madness).

Fortunately, my years of sweet talking the Uesugi vassalage paid off, I had several friends amongst their kokujin. I sent one last ninja and dropped Uesugisan's honor to 17 then literally clicked on EVERY SINGLE PROVINCE in the Uesugi blob as well as all my neighbors and managed to pull together a plot with 4 vassals of Uesugi and the Nanbu. I quickly declared war, then triggered my plot and viola! One of the most satisfying moments in the game as the Uesugi blob fragmented.

It was by no means an easy war after that. They still had those death stacks in Satake lands. It took 2 solid years of war on several fronts before the Uesugi finally subjugated and joined my lands. At that point Uesugisan was an unhappy clan leader amongst my vassals and started to plot back against me! So I sent in my ninja crew, dropped his honor down under 10, and invited him to commit seppuku. So satisfying when he accepted and was out of my way.

 

[feelotraveller]

 

[Captain Gars]

Excellent work This is exactly how plots are supposed to work, not as an "I win" button but something that you have to work for but feels very rewarding once you succeed. Two things are important to note here for those who want to plot: 1) resisting the temptation to join the gobble-up of Osaki (which would just leave Uesugi even stronger), and 2) "Fortunately, my years of sweet talking the Uesugi vassalage paid off".

 

[ColBlimp]

Has anyone seen the computer AI setup a plot against yourself? Be interesting to know.

 

[Nefaro]

Has anyone seen the computer AI setup a plot against yourself? Be interesting to know.

I've discovered my own vassal attempting a plot to split from the clan.. twice.

Other than that, I've not really had a large enough clan to warrant being ganged up on. I never really liked starting off with some of the largest nations in these games so I've been having to work for it. Thus far, I've tossed in the towel on a few games after taking some nasty beating by a huge neighbor. Those were some tough games and I decided to choose one of the medium-sized clans so as not to punish myself with extra difficulty again. Hopefully I'll see some AI plots against me on a large scale in the near future. Since it can, and surely will, plot against you as a vassal then I'd think it's even easier for it to simply gather an attack plot.

 

[oddible]

Has anyone seen the computer AI setup a plot against yourself? Be interesting to know.

Yeah, after I subjugated the Uesugi, I shortly thereafter discovered a plot against me instigated by the former Uesugi clan leader (who was now a vassal), which is why I trashed his honor with ninjas and got him to commit seppuku.

I do have some questions about this though because it changed my concept of how dynasties work. For instance, I had thought that a clan dynasty was tied to their lang but the fact that the Uesugi dynasty now exists within the Satake court is interesting. The clan leader title is handed down as well - when the Uesugi leader committed seppuku, a new clan leader title was given to his heir. I'll post these questions in a different thread.

Added here:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...tions-and-terminology&p=12889862#post12889862

 

[Foxd1e]

Excellent work This is exactly how plots are supposed to work, not as an "I win" button but something that you have to work for but feels very rewarding once you succeed. Two things are important to note here for those who want to plot: 1) resisting the temptation to join the gobble-up of Osaki (which would just leave Uesugi even stronger), and 2) "Fortunately, my years of sweet talking the Uesugi vassalage paid off".

Captain Gars, you have created a wonderful game, and at launch I have very few problems with this product which is pretty amazing for a Paradox launch. It is one of the smoothest launches without a doubt. I also love the setting that you chose for this game, I always felt Divine Wind for EU3 didn't create a Sengoku Jidai feel but Sengoku certainly goes above and beyond my expectations. As I have stated before I love the Clan and Character dynamics. You really feel like everyone in the game has their own personalities and agendas not just the Clans themselves.

Now praise aside: The Plot system shouldn't be an "I Win" button I agree, but it should be a "I can now continue enjoying this great game" button. I will reference my Satomi campaign once more, My Satomi campaign went very well in the early game, now that is in Late Middle Game my situation continues to be more and more hopeless. In the 1460s and 1470s I gobbled up my equal size neighbor (Mariyasu?). Then I turned my sights on the single province Sakai clan, and the neighboring Ashikaga variants, this was during the late 1470s. I married my heir to Sakai's daughter. Old man Sakai fathered 7 daughters and no sons, what luck for me there eh? So I waited for him to patiently die. He held out till his early 60s, all the while whelping new daughters. The chance of him having a son gave my clan leader many restless nights. I did not wish to risk war with them so I chose the more discreet method of disposing of the old man and sent Assassins. They succeeded and my coup de'tat was complete, with my son & heir installed as ruler of the Sakai clan (which now read as another Satomi clan with a red border to my clan? Is this working as intended?).

Meanwhile, while I had my hands in the Sakai clan affairs the mighty Uesugi gobbled up the bordering Ashikaga clan. So by early 1480s I was bordered by one clan, the largest clan in Japan (22% of all Japan under their thumb). At first I didn't want the Uesugi to steamroll me as they were doing to all other clans so I worked on my relations with the Uesugi vassals. I procured several political marriages, as I had a stable of 6 sons, and 2 daughters. So by the 1490s all of Uesugi's southern Vassals had a 50-60 relationship with me, bound by marriage. I had 70+ honor. They had honor in the 50s. But by the 1490s I realized that if I don't work on bringing the Uesugi down I can't grow more than the meager 9 provinces I own. So I began plotting the Uesugi's downfall. Now as I stated I had very good relations with the southern Uesugi vassals, I chipped at the Uesugi leaders honor for two decades. He was originally in the 60s, and I chopped him down to the late twenties. I sowed dissent with the southern Vassals for about 5 years a peice for each of them (I have a feeling sow dissent does nothing but that's another story). I also secured marriages and good relations with the Takeda, Osaki, Satake, Oga-Sawara(this one might be a sp) clans. I worked on my honor as well, it's up to 95 now.

By 1498 the Uesugi southern vassals rebelled on their own and reformed the Ashikaga clan. Which would make it a perfect time to strike the weakened Uesugi. Yet no one will join my plot because it is "too weak". I have the highest possible relations with all my potential plotters, Uesugi Ashida(Or whatever the boy leader's name is, who is now a grown man of 40 I believe) honor only 31 (I tried to get it lower the last 5 years but all ninja efforts failed), and I marshalled all the military might my 9 province clan can muster. My leaders personal retinue numbers 2750, plus a ronin army of 750. Which I think is pretty good for our size, plus my Kokujin control personal retinues of 500-1000 men as well. Yet after 20 years of working on relations with all potential plotters, and everything else I listed, not even my own sons clan will join the plot.

Edit: Sorry meant to congratulate Oddible on his successful plot! Good job, sometimes the stars & moons align

 

[oddible]

Some better feedback in the tooltip would help give an indication of why people aren't joining a plot for sure. At lot of it I think has to do with the target's honor. Though, if Ashikaga broke away from Uesugi I think you missed your chance - it sounded like several were already plotting and you should have a) found and joined their plot (is that even possible?), I've been invited to a plot before, or b) tried to get them involved in your plot before they broke free since they already had the appropriate relations with their liege.

 

[Foxd1e]

Some better feedback in the tooltip would help give an indication of why people aren't joining a plot for sure. At lot of it I think has to do with the target's honor. Though, if Ashikaga broke away from Uesugi I think you missed your chance - it sounded like several were already plotting and you should have a) found and joined their plot (is that even possible?), I've been invited to a plot before, or b) tried to get them involved in your plot before they broke free since they already had the appropriate relations with their liege.

I did, they always said "They will not accept" and gave no underlying reason, after they broke free, everyone would say "they will not accept, plot is too weak"

Also to be more specific the plot I chose was "The Plot to Attack the Uesugi Clan"

 

[oddible]

The 'plot is too weak' message implies that if you had other backers, that they might join in. I'm not sure if the game actually works that way or not but there may be a benefit to going back through and reinviting people after you've already gotten 1 or 2 people on board.

 

[Captain Gars]

...

Thanks for the feedback But just to clarify my earlier post: it wasn't meant as a "everything about plots work perfectly" (there are bugs with it that we're fixing for the patch), but some players complaining about plots seem to start one and then think that everyone they ask should automatically join and help them grow bigger, which isn't really what plots were meant for.

 

[Foxd1e]

The 'plot is too weak' message implies that if you had other backers, that they might join in. I'm not sure if the game actually works that way or not but there may be a benefit to going back through and reinviting people after you've already gotten 1 or 2 people on board.

Yeah I figured as much and as I stated in the other thread about Plots, how is someone supposed to get anyone to join a plot when everyone says it's too weak?

Edit: And yes I can also confirm that in some situations where a couple Plotters won't join because the plot is too weak, will join later when you manage to recruit a few members to the plot.

Thanks for the feedback But just to clarify my earlier post: it wasn't meant as a "everything about plots work perfectly" (there are bugs with it that we're fixing for the patch), but some players complaining about plots seem to start one and then think that everyone they ask should automatically join and help them grow bigger, which isn't really what plots were meant for.

Thank you and I like the changes you guys have planned, such as AI characters utilizing more opportunities to gain honor. Which in turn would eliminate most of the "My current honor makes plotting too risky" messages.

I appreciate that you took the time to read my post I have one more thing I noticed during my extensive time with plots: Ok so you have 3 requirements to make the Attack the Uesugi Clan plot work- 1.Plot Power of 0.8 or greater, 2.Your clan at war with Uesugi, 3.Plot Backers at least 1. Ok so your on the plot screen, and as soon as you fulfill 2 of the conditions you go ahead and declare war to fulfill all 3. Now in my game the sheath icon (to launch the plot, same icon as the Emperor Options in the Clan window) stays greyed out, not letting me launch the plot, even with all the conditions fulfilled. I had to close the plot window and reopen it to get it to light up properly so that I could launch the plot. Now this may not seem like a huge problem but after you declare war with the target clan, and haven't launched the plot, your plotters that are vassals of that clan will begin to leave the plot and you can't get them back. Happened to me the very first time, meanwhile I was clicking away at the launch icon hoping it would light up but it didn't and I lost them all.

 

[oddible]

Yeah same thing happened to me - I had to close and reopen the plot dialog or maybe I just waited a while longer - either way it was nerve wracking!

 

[Ezzezze]

Yesterday I got my first plot to work with the Oda ancestor of Nobunaga!!!! Plot to break free. Sure, I had to send ninjas to kill the clan leader and one to lower the honor of the child clan leader. I managed to get 2 of my fellow clan members to come along and I'm sure I would be able to get more if only they had more honor (and if my character was more diplomatic). Unfortunately the Shiba clan was doomed and the Imagawa were besieging one of my 7 provinces and the Shiba were exhausted of troops. The Shiba did not contest me breaking away and I'm pretty sure the clan will die...

On the other hand, I got invited into a plot against Toki and it was activated by the AI. The Toki have no standing army and can't raise levies and I'm besieging province after province for territorial gains

Things are looking good for the Oda

 

[unmerged(382543)]

Interestingly enough I've found that while starting beneath Uesugi you can take a lot of the Satake lands without the blob deciding to gobble you up. You're a little bigger for it but the split land doesn't seem to impact their opinion much and around then ninjas start to become a viable way of preventing war.