Got AHD, wondering why civilizing takes so long now

[anomanderus]

So back during the summer, over six months ago, I made a thread about how liberia can't civilize fast enough to grab provinces from sokoto to Liberia. Well, liberia is in an even worse position now. I was actually able, during the fall, to have two liberia games where I civilized by 1870, conquered Sokoto and began taking the land in between.

However now liberia's primary culture is no longer african minor, but afro american. That would be fine, but there doesn't seem to be any kind of decision encouraging afro-americans from the USA to migrate to liberia. Further, I found that even pushing education as hard as I could (I had 25% literacy by 1880) I still couldn't civilize before 1880. I think however if I had gotten the "education reform" reform as my first reform instead of advanced factories, my population may have more quickly become educated and therefore maybe possibly civilized faster.

I thought the new civilizing methods would make it easier to civilize if you were playing hard, but it seems to have made things slower. One thing I note, however, is that the scramble for africa seems to be a bit more scrambly now. Britain conquered chunks of ethiopia while the french continued eating west africa. Also if I was playing a country like persia or Japan then the civilizing aspect of the game would probably be more fun, but as liberia it only seems to ruin my chances at getting anywhere. I mean liberia doesn't even seem to start with any reforms- Persia and Egypt seem to either start with reforms or enough points to grab one or two at the beginning.

I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who cares about liberia, but if you ever feel like playing liberia just remember this thread and realize at most you will have the grand experience of watching europe eat everything around you while you wait to finally civilize.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

As an uncivilized nation, it is VERY important to boost your literacy to receive enough RP.
Once you have 4% clergymen, you should be able to westernize around 1870-1890, depending on country.

 

[grufti18]

Actually I never played liberia, but some of the other small uncivs. I think 4% clergymen as Liberia is as unrealistic as with any of the arabian states.

 

[Menocchio]

Well, civilizing itself is unrealistic with Liberia and the Arabian states.

 

[grufti18]

I meant unrealistic, cause the 4% would eat up your budget. Sorry if i expressed myself wrong

 

[Menocchio]

Oh, ok.

 

[Secret Master]

The AI can usually civilize 99% of countries by the 1910s or so. They have to survive that long, but it can be done.

But because it is down via reforms now, there is no way to game the system for ultra-fast civilizing. Uncivs, especially small ones like Liberia, are a real challenge now. The new system has really changed things.

 

[Pitt The Elder]

Indeed, while AHD has probably slowed things down, I don't see why it needs to be faster...

 

[GAGA Extrem]

I meant unrealistic, cause the 4% would eat up your budget. Sorry if i expressed myself wrong

Depends on the nation. I have not yet played Liberia, but many medium sized uncivs can manage to pay their bills with max tax, max tarrifs, minium stockpile and 100% admin efficiency. Maybe limit soldier spending, too - although that may end up dangerous.

Anyway - even if you can't pay them it doesn't matter. Literacy increases at normal ratio even if you can't pay your clergymen a single dime.
Sure, clergy growth takes longer, but who cares? It's not like there is anything else you can promote at this point.

I'll start a quick Liberia game and see what I can achieve.

edit: I just noticed I didn't mention bureaucrats in my first post.
ALWAYS promote bureaucrats until you have 100% admin efficiency!
THEN start promoting clergymen.

And: Try to hold a non-LF party in power. Otherwise your income is severly crippled.

edit 2: Here we go.

1837, after one year of bureaucrat promotion:

1838, with 100% admin efficiency:

1845, with 4% clergymen and passed tax reform:

1856, with passed land and education reform:

1875, westernizing:

My economy collapsed around 1865, probably due to increased world market competition, so I wasn't able to pay any salaries from 1870 onwards (yet literacy did increase).
Another problem was the fact that I had a serious reactionary revolt that almost broke my nation (bad luck, they had 0.1% RR). I guess you could westernize even faster if you just ignore any economic reform apart from education (and maybe taxes) and instead pass military reforms. Probably the best choise is to accumulate RP until you have enough to pass them all, since increased literacy will make them much cheaper.

edit:
Second try, just ignored my spending, promoted clergymen up to 7% (there is a tiny literacy bonus even after 4%) to did only pass education reform and industrial dev (for 30% civil) and then rushed all military reforms once I had the RP. Could probably still be a bit faster (I guess 1870 is possible).

 

[Ceeker]

But because it is down via reforms now, there is no way to game the system for ultra-fast civilizing.

There is, sort of ...DoW a neighbour, deliberately drive war exhaustion up, and enjoy the big plurality boost that comes with the massive consciousness increase.

 

[Secret Master]

There is, sort of ...DoW a neighbour, deliberately drive war exhaustion up, and enjoy the big plurality boost that comes with the massive consciousness increase.

I guess your right, but I was thinking of "Humiliate, humiliate, spam ships and leaders, civilize" as the approach. Under the old system, just because you humiliate a bunch of other uncivs, and spam Man o Wars, you suddenly were taken seriously as a civilized nation. :wacko:

I prefer the new system because it actually makes sense.

 

[carron]

I guess your right, but I was thinking of "Humiliate, humiliate, spam ships and leaders, civilize" as the approach. Under the old system, just because you humiliate a bunch of other uncivs, and spam Man o Wars, you suddenly were taken seriously as a civilized nation. :wacko:

I prefer the new system because it actually makes sense.

worked for real-life japan. beat up korea, beat up china, beat up russia after getting too much attention and afterwards get blocked by the usa during the peace negotiations while trying to get those islands.

 

[airpirate]

In game terms Japan was already westernized at that point.

 

[Secret Master]

In game terms Japan was already westernized at that point.

Yeah. In game terms, Japan is considered "civilized" by the time of the restoration.

You could argue that the prestige from their post-Meiji wars is what helped them get enough score to become a GP, especially after beating the Russians.

 

[anomanderus]

The AI can usually civilize 99% of countries by the 1910s or so. They have to survive that long, but it can be done.

But because it is down via reforms now, there is no way to game the system for ultra-fast civilizing. Uncivs, especially small ones like Liberia, are a real challenge now. The new system has really changed things.

Liberia was a challenge before. Liberia is just impossible now. Unless your only goal in game is to civilize, in which case it is inevitable.

 

[anomanderus]

I guess your right, but I was thinking of "Humiliate, humiliate, spam ships and leaders, civilize" as the approach. Under the old system, just because you humiliate a bunch of other uncivs, and spam Man o Wars, you suddenly were taken seriously as a civilized nation. :wacko:

I prefer the new system because it actually makes sense.

Liberia cannot "dow a neighbor" because Liberia is a satellite of the USA.

 

[Secret Master]

Liberia was a challenge before. Liberia is just impossible now. Unless your only goal in game is to civilize, in which case it is inevitable.

I'm not sure what you want. Liberia is an uncivilized country that starts out in 1836 with a whopping 114k POPs. GAGA already demonstrated that civilizing by 1871 is possible. That's not even the half-way point in the game. That leaves 50+ years to develop further. You're sitting on the coast. If you civilize as part of the USA's SOI, then you aught to civilize with enough techs to send some ships and troops to attack some minor uncivs in Asia. Bali rarely gets sphered and should be conquerable. You could probably conquer something in Latin America if a GP hasn't put it in an SOI. You could even try to just annex Sokoto and Ethiopia without bothering with a land connection, although they both have a lot more people than you.

Liberia's starting position is one of the worst in the game. It matches their historical position, so short of artificially equalizing techs and/or POPs, I don't know how you expect Liberia to become powerful.

In fact, I'm not 100% why Liberia is in the game. The area is not really incorporated as a country in the Victoria sense until 1847, which is after the start of the game. Before that, it could be argued that parts of Liberia are really a US colony (and other parts are a UK colony). An event chain that let's the USA turn the colony into Liberia in the 1840s might make more sense than the current set up anyway.