Got a PU over France as Provence... Now what?

[ThirdPh3onix]

I have been played eu4 for a while now (over 1000 hours) and finally had a strange enough situation come up that I needed to post. Unfortunately I don’t have a screen shot but I will describe the situation as well as I can.

I started a game as Provence in an attempt to go for the Good King Rene achievement. I made allies with Austria, Spain and France. I moved my capital to Provence and added my capital to the HRE. Due to alliances I have expanded into Italy and added sienna and Tuscany to my starting holdings. Spain has a PU over Aragon and Naples. Burgany still exists. Most of Italy hates me but I have improved relations enough to stop a coalition.

The year is about 1460 and I just got a pu over France. We are going to crush england in the succession war (Austria’s allies got called in to because I’m part of the HRE)... but then what?

France has a 250% modifier to LD due to relative strength modifier. I only have a force limit of 15. I have 113 dev compared to 342 for France. Should I try to stay at war to prevent independence being declared or did they remove that option? I still have Austria and super Spain as allies. Should I try to add denmark or something? How far Can I realistically push over force limit? I have a cb on Brittany who is only allied to burgandy but Austria and Castile won’t join the war. Will France participate if I declare to try to expand my Forcelimit? Look forward to suggestions.

 

[Rider_of_Doom]

Had the same situation in my run with Provence. Thought, I could hold the PU and crack down each war with my allies and usurp some provinces from France until it's manageable. Wasn't possible. The first two wars were wins, but in the third attempt Austria and Castile broke my alliance with them and I got stomped.(Even worse, that I got the PU through the Political Marriage event, so the high LD was irrational from a logical standpoint)

You're in the HRE, so you could have a better chance to pull it off, if the HRE doesn't elect some OPM as emperor.

 

[ThirdPh3onix]

Had the same situation in my run with Provence. Thought, I could hold the PU and crack down each war with my allies and usurp some provinces from France until it's manageable. Wasn't possible. The first two wars were wins, but in the third attempt Austria and Castile broke my alliance with them and I got stomped.(Even worse, that I got the PU through the Political Marriage event, so the high LD was irrational from a logical standpoint)

You're in the HRE, so you could have a better chance to pull it off, if the HRE doesn't elect some OPM as emperor.[/QUOTE

Sounds promising! Question if they declare war of indepence since I am in the HRE and they are not, would Austria be a cobeligerent?

 

[Rider_of_Doom]

You wrote your post into the quote. Just a friendly tip.

Yes, Austria should be a co, if France declares an Indepence war. I also overlooked another question: PUs can declare against you, if you're in a war.

 

[nwil10]

Try to vet elected as emperor. That will increase force limit which will allow you to reduce liberty desiree. Also, your first set of ideas may be to max out quantity ideas for +50% force limit. Stay at war with burgundy and italian states and increase overall development. Once France allies someone, attack them to break the alliance. Your allies should be able to take on France but not France and a big ally. Try not to gain too much AE by expanding to give you a shot at becoming emperor but you need to expand. Another option is to declare war on england and intentionally let england fight france and deplete french manpower/force limit. You could move a unit into French territory but far from Englksh territory and then allow allies to join button. France may join yoir single unit with one of their stacks allowing for a long bloody fight for the other French stack. Then give England a 100% treaty of French provinces, particularily the Gascony (dead country) ones which you can attack for later. In this case you have reduced french manpower and force limit and racked up their debt. You could extend the war for a long time to rack up a lot of dent and then pay of the debt to reduce LD.

Basically reduce their development or increase yours.

 

[makaramus]

Try to vet elected as emperor. That will increase force limit which will allow you to reduce liberty desiree. Also, your first set of ideas may be to max out quantity ideas for +50% force limit. Stay at war with burgundy and italian states and increase overall development. Once France allies someone, attack them to break the alliance. Your allies should be able to take on France but not France and a big ally. Try not to gain too much AE by expanding to give you a shot at becoming emperor but you need to expand. Another option is to declare war on england and intentionally let england fight france and deplete french manpower/force limit. You could move a unit into French territory but far from Englksh territory and then allow allies to join button. France may join yoir single unit with one of their stacks allowing for a long bloody fight for the other French stack. Then give England a 100% treaty of French provinces, particularily the Gascony (dead country) ones which you can attack for later. In this case you have reduced french manpower and force limit and racked up their debt. You could extend the war for a long time to rack up a lot of dent and then pay of the debt to reduce LD.

Basically reduce their development or increase yours.

do not become emperor he is allready protecting you from an independance war
staying at war no longer prevents independance war ... I think? not sure about this one I heard it was changed

 

[Rider_of_Doom]

do not become emperor he is allready protecting you from an independance war
staying at war no longer prevents independance war ... I think? not sure about this one I heard it was changed

Yeah, that was changed. It wasn't even a recent change, although I can't determine the patch, which changed it. Vassals and PUs can declare against you in a war, if the LD exceeds 50%.

 

[ThirdPh3onix]

Hmm yeah I like the expand option. Maybe if I eat Brittany that will help bridge the gap. I was planning on going diplo as my first idea group because I have extra diplo points and I could hold another ally (Denmark?) as well as diplo rep helping hold my vassal. I could also “lose a war” and release Gascone from France which would give me some juicy land to eat and make France weaker. Can the Burgundian inheritance event fire for France if France isn’t an “independent” country? That would be dangerous right now lol

 

[Kergan]

Get strong allies, and then always be at war until you're big enough to keep France in check. Eat Tunis and Morocco or something while slurping Brittany and whatever else you can get your hands on. Your subjects can't declare independence until you're at peace.

 

[Rider_of_Doom]

Get strong allies, and then always be at war until you're big enough to keep France in check. Eat Tunis and Morocco or something while slurping Brittany and whatever else you can get your hands on. Your subjects can't declare independence until you're at peace.

Yes, they can. France even did this in my run with Provence, so my Allies dropped me and I got slapped.

I searched the patchnotes and found it. That was changed in patch 1.6, 3,5 years ago: https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Patch_1.6

• Now possible to declare an independence war while overlord is at war.

 

[Kergan]

Now possible to declare an independence war while overlord is at war.

That's odd... When I was playing Holland, I can't recollect ever having been able to declare independence while Burgundy was fighting France.

 

[Blust]

Depens on your loyalty if I record. If it's higher than 50%, you can declare independance while being at war

 

[Yuiiut]

I'm fairly sure that while you 'can' declare war while at war, the subject AI is highly reluctant to do so. However, the latest patch made disloyal AI more "YOLO", according to the changelog, so unless someone has run tests on this patch, don't trust definitive promises from people-they could be out of date.

 

[Rider_of_Doom]

I'm fairly sure that while you 'can' declare war while at war, the subject AI is highly reluctant to do so. However, the latest patch made disloyal AI more "YOLO", according to the changelog, so unless someone has run tests on this patch, don't trust definitive promises from people-they could be out of date.

Yeah, this is the change, which makes the impact. Normally you could hold a disloyal PU in check, if it has low manpower, money etc., but this will not help atm. Especially if the gap is as big as between France and Provence.

 

[Bibor]

Got a PU over France as Provence... Now what?

I'd just abandon the union, except if you are willing to play a "what if" game as an experiment. All your efforts in the next 100 years will be focused on how not to lose France as the junior partner. In the same timeframe you could just conquer as much development and come back for France later. It might look as it is free development, but it isn't. I'd rather have France as an ally and conquer, say, Iberia and Maghreb for myself. I had a similar situation with a Byzantium PU over Russia.

 

[tip001]

Just as OP said "lose a war" and release some France cores seems best option.
Just pick a very small country and 100% them (one of the smaller HRE countries north?). In the peace deal dont annex them but give away what ever you want from France within 100% war score (200% if they had an ally, etc). If not enough start another phoney war.
Used to work, is easier than actually losing a war

 

[Freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom!]

Perhaps RM Burgandy and pray for the dice to be nice? I mean, that shouldn't be your only strategy, but it could help. Do whatever you can to keep Austria as the emperor for sure, as you will need their help, just remember that any central European allies will be quite busy once the reformation hits. Certainly this is a rough one, please post a follow up of how it goes.

 

[YuriiH]

PU-France AI won't declare on you if you are already in a war. So…
You may also want to No-CB someone convenient (Portugal?), conquer it (or just conquer with high AE hit) and in a resulting coalition war make France release some of her Northern, French-cultured territories.
You will reconquer the territories later after the PU becomes stable while you will grab some “almost AE-free” lands for yourself in the initial (No-CB) war.

 

[Rider_of_Doom]

PU-France AI won't declare on you if you are already in a war. So…

That's not true at all. Especially since the last patch.

 

[Bibor]

Just as OP said "lose a war" and release some France cores seems best option.
Just pick a very small country and 100% them (one of the smaller HRE countries north?). In the peace deal dont annex them but give away what ever you want from France within 100% war score (200% if they had an ally, etc). If not enough start another phoney war.
Used to work, is easier than actually losing a war

Lets state the obvious facts: since France is off the rival table, France will get some really big players supportings its independence: Burgundy, Castile and the like. Even if you manage to declare a war on a HRE minor (which pits you against Austria and it's allies - Provance is *NOT* in the HRE), there are no guarantees France will get sieged down before you get sieged down. All Provance provinces except Poitou are rather easy to reach too.

As I previously stated, Having France as a PU junior is complicated as Castile, let alone Provance. Not saying it's undoable, but hardly worth the effort. I'd rather have the same nations France would get to support their independence as allies.