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Sanguine Caesar

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Introduction

I am currently working on a larger suggestion for the region of Illyria (i.e Croatia, Bosnia, Slovenia) and in doing so I have read up on the internal political situation of the area in and around 1444. In doing my research, I have decided to suggest in this smaller thread that a new Estate be added for the Catholic South Slavs as well as Hungary (whose politics were almost inseparable at the time). This estate would represent the "Guests" or Gosti: central Europeans invited to settle the region by the Hungarian King.

Historical Background

The following quote is from Prof. Ivo Goldstein's book Croatia: A History, and describes the origin of the Gosti in Croatia (and to some degree Hungary as well).

"By the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, towns had grown quite strong in Italy and Germany, and in Hungary and northern Croatia (Slavonia) the king and great lords granted various kinds of privileges and financial concessions to Italian and German craftsmen and merchants to attract them to the country. Part of the immigrant wave that swept through central Europe at this time reached Croatia: the newcomers were called guests (gosti, hospites), and joined with local people to build settlements along important routes, by crossroads and in the surroundings of castles where they practised their trade. They were under the king's protection and under the immediate authority of the župan [tribal leader, eventually the Croatian equivalent to count]. When the counties began to disintegrate, the powerful lords threatened to turn the communities of 'guests' into serfs. Because this was not in the king's interest, he supported the creation of free 'guest' communes subject to his direct authority. In the thirteenth century about fifteen Slavonian cities received royal charters granting them municipal freedom, which some of them used to develop into major centres while others remained insignificant settlements. After the Mongolians devastated Hungary and Croatia in 1241-2, King Bela IV issued an especially large number of such charters to encourage faster development. The commune of 'guests' elected the city judge, who had administrative power, and the king granted them the surrounding land. Artisans and merchants could travel to markets without paying customs duties. Gradec (today part of Zagreb) received the greatest privileges. The Golden Bull of 1242 required the citizens to build city walls and organise their defence. They got their own judiciary, autonomy, privileges in crafts and trade, the right to organise fairs, and so on." [1]

Another historical justification for including this new Estate is the Unio Trium Nationum or "Union of Three Nations". This concept was a royal charter from the Hungarian king in 1438 regarding the administration of Transylvania, in which the land was divided among the nobility, German settlers (Transylvanian Saxons), and the local Székelys (Hungarian minority in Transylvania). [2]

Transylvanian Saxons first arrived in the area around the mid-12th century as part of the Ostsiedlung: a period of German migration into central and Eastern Europe. Despite being called "Saxons", they originated from all over Germany (though most were from Franconian-speaking regions) and were more settlers invited by the Hungarian king.Their settlements would go on to form the region known as the "Royal Lands" (German: Königsboden, Hungarian: Királyföld). [3]

The following is an ethnic map of Transylvania in 1815 (the closest to EUIV start I could find though I'll keep looking) [4]


Many of these groups have lasted to the present day, particularly in Croatia where a whole electoral district is devoted solely to national minorities [5], many of whom include the decendents of the original "Guests".

With this historical data in mind, it is clear that the best way to represent this internal dynamic would be to give these groups their own representation as an estate as in many ways they enjoyed the same privileged status as the existing nobility, burghers, etc. If the East Slavs can have Cossacks, then why can't the Carpathians and South Slavs have Gosti?

Setup

Now before I get into the actual mechanics of the Gosti Estate, I would like to first acknowledge a few necessary changes to the starting situation of Hungary and Croatia in order to have this mechanic work better.

Firstly, the provinces of Kiralyföld and Maros should not have Transylvanian culture. In reference to the map above, Kiralyföld was made up of a majority of Transylvanian Saxons, therefore it should be given Franconian culture instead of Transylvanian in-game. Also clear from the above map is that Maros was majority Székely, and remains so to this day [6], therefore meaning it should be Hungarian and not Transylvanian in-game.

Finally, this Estate should only be made available for certain countries. My suggestion would be that only Catholic countries whose primary culture is in the Carpathian or South Slavic culture groups should get access to the Gosti Estate. However, I am open to other options when it comes to determining who gets the Estate (i.e basing it off of Regions or Government Type) so any suggestions there are welcome.

Mechanics

So now, how would this new Estate work? Well the closest existing Estate in the game I could compare it to would be the Dhimmi for Muslim countries, except whereas the Dhimmi are concerned primarily with Religion, Gosti would be concerned with Culture. This part is still very much a work-in-progress so any help or suggestions (particularly with modifiers/balancing) would be much appreciated.

1: Province Assignment
Firstly, this Estate would not demand territory unless there are cored provinces which do not belong to the country's Primary Culture Group.

In order to assign a province to the Gosti, the province must be of a culture which does not belong to the country's Primary Culture Group.

The following provinces would be assigned to the Gosti from game start:
-Slavonia
-Syrmia
-Kiralyföld

2: Local Effects
-Cannot Convert Culture in $PROVINCE$
-Effects of Non-Accepted Culture in $PROVINCE$ are negated
-Effects on Local Manpower caused by Local Autonomy in $PROVINCE$ are negated

3: Estate Interactions
”Recruit Minister”
Requirements:
-Gosti Estate has 40 Influence
Effects:
-Gosti Estate gains +15 Influence
-Nobility Estate gains -15 Loyalty
-A Discounted Grand Captain appears

”Enserf the Gosti”
Requirements:
-Gosti Estate has 30 Loyalty
-Current Age is one of the following:
-Age of Discovery
-Age of Reformation
Effects:
-Gosti Estate gains -15 Loyalty
-Gain Local Autonomy -0.15% in Gosti-controlled provinces

”Grant Municipal Charters”
Requirements:
-Gosti Estate has 30 Influence
Effects:
-Gosti Estate gains 25 Loyalty
-Gosti Estate gains 10 Influence
-Gain Local Unrest -2 in Gosti-controlled provinces

4: National Effects
As with all Estate modifiers, these scale up when the Influence of the Gosti Estate increases. The values shown here are for the 4th "tier" of Estate Influence (i.e 60-100).

-Loyalty<40%: Build Cost +10%, Production Efficiency -10%
-Loyalty>40%: Build Cost -10%
-Loyalty>60%: Build Cost -10%, Production Efficiency +20%

The other "tiers" are just the above values multiplied by the following factors respectively:

-Tier 1 (0-19): *0.25
-Tier 2 (20-39): *0.50
-Tier 3 (40-59): *0.75

5: Events

Events for the Gosti would mostly just be variations on the normal Estate events, though I am in the process of making some specific events for them and will add those when I am done them.

Closing/Sources

Thanks for reading my thread! Hopefully you liked my idea and if you have any more ideas/suggestions/constructive critiques then they are truly appreciated!

 
Last edited:

Mutagen_Prime

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What nation-wide effects would the estate give when they have high loyalty? E.g. the clergy estate gives +15% tax at >40% loyalty and +2% missionary strength at >60% loyalty (I couldn't see it mentioned anywhere.) Going by your description of this particular state's historic role, nation-wide production boosts or development/build cost reductions sound the most approproate in my opinion. Great idea though overall. Much-needed flavour.
 

Sanguine Caesar

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What nation-wide effects would the estate give when they have high loyalty? E.g. the clergy estate gives +15% tax at >40% loyalty and +2% missionary strength at >60% loyalty (I couldn't see it mentioned anywhere.) Going by your description of this particular state's historic role, nation-wide production boosts or development/build cost reductions sound the most approproate in my opinion. Great idea though overall. Much-needed flavour.
You're right, I did forget to mention it originally. I was having trouble initially with coming up for nation-wide effects and so I put it off, and I guess I just never got around to it. I like your ideas though for modifiers though and if you don't mind I'll add them to the original post once I work out some more specific values for them. Thanks for the suggestion and the support!
 

Sanguine Caesar

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EDIT: Added nation-wide modifiers for Gosti based on suggestions from @Mutagen_Prime
 

Mingmung

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I'm going to play the Devil's advocate here:

- Well-sourced arguments, can't possibly argue with your research. My compliments.

- The estates-mechanic is quite flawed and its current setup is even disliked by the developers. It's not fun or interactive with the other mechanics. Why make additions to it that just add more of the same '25% autonomy + some random modifiers'-options?

- Aren't the Gosti mostly covered by the Burghers-estate? Those had more freedom than the peasantry, too. They were the artisans, merchants and craftsmen, had their burghomeister and municipalities, etc. Gosti are arguably imported Burghers from other countries. They're almost 100% the same, only difference being their culture.

- Transylvanian culture is what it is; an amalgamation of Transylvanian Saxons, Szekely and Romanian people. It shouldn't be replaced by a patchwork of other cultures. This is the best alternative as was discussed quite a while back in multiple threads. Yes, some parts had a German majority, or one of the other two cultures as a majority, but you would get a very strange patchwork-like setup if you'd implement it that way. The current Transylvanian culture does all of them justice and even has its own tag bound to it. This was also the justification the developers gave to this culture.

Conclusion; my suggestion to you would be to rename the Hungarian and Croatian Burghers-estate to Gosti, as they were the most influental Burghers in those areas. And hope that Paradox will revamp the estate-mechanic in the future, as it's bullocks at the moment.
 
Last edited:

AndrejK

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So basically it includes German settlers in kingdom of Hungary? Why not?
 

Sanguine Caesar

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I'm going to play the Devil's advocate here:

- Well-sourced arguments, can't possibly argue with your research. My compliments.

- The estates-mechanic is quite flawed and its current setup is even disliked by the developers. It's not fun or interactive with the other mechanics. Why make additions to it that just add more of the same '25% autonomy + some random modifiers'-options?

- Aren't the Gosti mostly covered by the Burghers-estate? Those had more freedom than the peasantry, too. They were the artisans, merchants and craftsmen, had their burghomeister and municipalities, etc. Gosti are arguably imported Burghers from other countries. They're almost 100% the same, only difference being their culture.

- Transylvanian culture is what it is; an amalgamation of Transylvanian Saxons, Szekely and Romanian people. It shouldn't be replaced by a patchwork of other cultures. This is the best alternative as was discussed quite a while back in multiple threads. Yes, some parts had a German majority, or one of the other two cultures as a majority, but you would get a very strange patchwork-like setup if you'd implement it that way. The current Transylvanian culture does all of them justice and even has its own tag bound to it. This was also the justification the developers gave to this culture.

Conclusion; my suggestion to you would be to rename the Hungarian and Croatian Burghers-estate to Gosti, as they were the most influental Burghers in those areas. And hope that Paradox will revamp the estate-mechanic in the future, as it's bullocks at the moment.
On the topic of the Estate system in general; I also agree that it could use a major improvement. However, I don't know what that improvement would look like so for simplicity's sake I tried to make this estate work within the context of the estate system as it is in its current iteration.

About Transylvania; I always thought of Transylvanian as being a representation of the local Romanian population that the devs had split off from Romanian to prevent them from always being culture-converted by Hungary. With this in mind, I felt it necessary to represent the other local cultures and the Gosti estate would allow for the Transylvanian Saxons in particular to receive representation as having it assigned to the province would make having them there viable because it prevents culture-conversion in provinces under its control. However, I can understand the argument for maintaining a unified Transylvanian culture.

As for comparing Gosti to Burghers, the Gosti in many ways formed a separate political entity from the Burghers. There were indeed many similarities, however as was stated before they received the king's direct protection and had been specially invited to settle the lands by the monarchy. As such, foreign Gosti in many ways enjoyed a more privileged position in society than their native counterparts. Not only that, but in-game the burghers mostly affect trade, whereas Gosti would have more of an effect on manpower and production, so I see there being enough reason to represent them separately. Thanks for sharing your opinion though!
 

Canute VII

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These would better work as a provincial modifier tbh. Also, I think Hungary gets an event which gives progress to Renaissance institution - is that in any way related to the invitation of foreigners?
 

HRErceg

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I don't know how viable would this be for Croatia considering that most of the "Gosti" were hungarians up until Bachs absolutism era with increased germanization which is out of reach from the games timeline
 

Me_

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Sadly, despite initial mention that they may do so, the Devs have refrained from adding any new estates.
Which is a shame, as they could be used as a means to make nations more distinct from each other.
 
Last edited: