Goods/resources

[RedRalphWiggum]

What new goods/resources do you think should be in Vicky2? A few ideas of my own...

Typewriters
Books
Movies (abstract them to entertainment or something, but they were an important part of the era)

 

[unmerged(71032)]

I don't think more goods are needed - they are pain to track anyway already.

As for what you have listed here (except from typewriters?) it is a bit problematic, because those are not material needs - they are services, and provide entertainment.

Problem is, in the period we are talking about there was no notable international trade of entertainment products. Only at the very end Hollywood started to be such "factory" - but even then, it creates huge problem with representation in game. How do you suggest to represent book "factory"? Does it make better book "hits" the more workers you put in? Just few things to consider...

Services oriented economy is not in the scope of 1836-1936 game - they become important only way after the WWII.

As for resources - adding more resources won't make sense without more provinces OR ability to obtain more then 1resource from single province. Otherwise, countries with low number of provinces and unlucky resources (popular ones) are going to have huge problems with balancing their budgets. So - I wouldn't mind few new resources (like colored metals, bauxites to name a few), but at the present moment production/trade systems are already having a problem with high number of resources.

 

[ashandresash]

I'd like to see 'chemicals' (they're represented in VIP) and 'beer' :rofl: Seriously.
And I don't agree Alozjy about services: they should be included.

First, because they were important in that timeframe: in UK, employment was in 1871:

- 25% in primary sector (includes minery). In 1750, 48%.
- 47% in secondary. In 1750, 40%.
- 28% in terciary. In 1750, 12%.

I'm not talking about value generated, but people employed in each one.

Second, not world markets don't mean not markets at all. We still have national ones. Services could be produced (and consumed) nationally. What happens today in a big extent. Price would be related to people working on them.

In fact, services demand seems to me an awesome way of working with automatic POP promotion. So, it could be fine that POPs had demands on 'education', 'healthcare' and even 'culture' or 'entertainment'.

So, it could be fine adding to POPs demand this issues.

I made a general proposal about 'services' here and here. It was a 'plea for services' thread.

My proposal was of 10 different services (some of them already included on Vicky).

 

[RedRalphWiggum]

I don't think more goods are needed - they are pain to track anyway already.

As for what you have listed here (except from typewriters?) it is a bit problematic, because those are not material needs - they are services, and provide entertainment.

Problem is, in the period we are talking about there was no notable international trade of entertainment products. Only at the very end Hollywood started to be such "factory" - but even then, it creates huge problem with representation in game. How do you suggest to represent book "factory"? Does it make better book "hits" the more workers you put in? Just few things to consider...

Services oriented economy is not in the scope of 1836-1936 game - they become important only way after the WWII.

As for resources - adding more resources won't make sense without more provinces OR ability to obtain more then 1resource from single province. Otherwise, countries with low number of provinces and unlucky resources (popular ones) are going to have huge problems with balancing their budgets. So - I wouldn't mind few new resources (like colored metals, bauxites to name a few), but at the present moment production/trade systems are already having a problem with high number of resources.

Books aren't services... I'm not sure what you mean, a book factory would be respresented by a book factory, of course. And there are going to be more provinces, so there is scope for more resources. You make a fair point about movies, maybe it could be a decision (set up studio). I agree that bauxite should be a resource too.

 

[unmerged(71032)]

Books aren't services... I'm not sure what you mean, a book factory would be respresented by a book factory, of course. And there are going to be more provinces, so there is scope for more resources. You make a fair point about movies, maybe it could be a decision (set up studio). I agree that bauxite should be a resource too.

Does it make for you any difference if you read Phone Book of the Liverpool, Bible, or "Lord of the Rings"? Of course it's a service!

Book, as manufactured good, is just a tool to pass the information, that provides service. Book manufacturing process is to large extend irrevelant for the quality of service - adding extra 2000 workers won't make Verne's book any better - although you might print a few more pieces of it.

We already have paper factories that already represent what you mean by book factories - but what really "makes" a book is an author, not manufacturer - and that is something that can be hardly represented with Vicky 1 economic system.

 

[unmerged(71032)]

And I don't agree Alozjy about services: they should be included.

I've read your suggestions - and while they look great considering realism, it would be a hell to implement them.

What I was saying in my first post, was that I don't see a good way to implement services if Vicky 2 is not radically changing its economical system (compared to Vicky 1)and not make it more complex. They can get in - but only if Paradox decides to make things even harder to figure out then they are now.

 

[RedRalphWiggum]

Does it make for you any difference if you read Phone Book of the Liverpool, Bible, or "Lord of the Rings"? Of course it's a service!

Book, as manufactured good, is just a tool to pass the information, that provides service. Book manufacturing process is to large extend irrevelant for the quality of service - adding extra 2000 workers won't make Verne's book any better - although you might print a few more pieces of it.

We already have paper factories that already represent what you mean by book factories - but what really "makes" a book is an author, not manufacturer - and that is something that can be hardly represented with Vicky 1 economic system.

I don't know how you are misinterpreting this but production of books is manufacture of goods. You are confusing it with the service of authorship or disseminating intellectual property.

 

[Sute]{h]

I don't see why services would be any harder to model than manifactured goods.

Every POP in Vicky had a certain list of demands. Simply add services to that list, and the POP will consume them. The only difference is that services should never actually stockpile or be traded between nations. That means surplus production of services is lost.

I know some services was actually "traded" internationally, but AFAIK the vast majority of services was consumed within the same country that produced them.

 

[unmerged(71032)]

I don't know how you are misinterpreting this but production of books is manufacture of goods. You are confusing it with the service of authorship or disseminating intellectual property.

Then how it differs from paper factory exactly? Except from adding extra stage in production and making POP management harder (they can't work both in paper and book factory)?

 

[RedRalphWiggum]

Then how it differs from paper factory exactly? Except from adding extra stage in production and making POP management harder (they can't work both in paper and book factory)?

It doesn't need to have an extra stage of production, maybe just a few different requirements, such as a literacy level requirement. This is pretty straightforward stuff, as is comparable to the different types of clothes and furniture in V1.

 

[ashandresash]

(...)

As for resources - adding more resources won't make sense without more provinces OR ability to obtain more then 1resource from single province. Otherwise, countries with low number of provinces and unlucky resources (popular ones) are going to have huge problems with balancing their budgets. So - I wouldn't mind few new resources (like colored metals, bauxites to name a few), but at the present moment production/trade systems are already having a problem with high number of resources.

As provinces number is going to be similar to Vicky1, I think a good way to open the possibility for more goods (at least minerals) is consider mines like factories. So the province will produce one good (grain, sheep...) and in some states/regions there'd be available one or several minerals (iron, coal, oil...).

It's more realistic IMO, and you won't have a Belgium or Germany not producing other thing in the whole country than iron and coal. It might work well either for colonies and discoveries, like oil in Arabia, etc.

P.S. Sorry for déjà-vu'ers, I've posted the same idea maybe too times.

 

[unmerged(71032)]

I don't see why services would be any harder to model than manifactured goods.

See, they don't - it's perfectly possible.

You just add 10 or so extra groups to the product list, 10 extra potential occupations for the POPs, and even more confusion for the new player.

In short - it's doable, it's realistic... and I don't think devs will do something like that because they intend to not overburden the game with additional mechanics (unless such mechanics is solving some already existing problems).

As provinces number is going to be similar to Vicky1, I think a good way to open the possibility for more goods (at least minerals) is consider mines like factories. So the province will produce one good (grain, sheep...) and in some states/regions there'd available one or several minerals (iron, coal, oil...).

It's more realistic IMO, and you won't have a Belgium or Germany not producing other thing in the whole country than iron and coal. It might work well either for colonies and discoveries, like oil in Arabia, etc.

P.S. Sorry for déjà-vu'ers, I've posted the same idea maybe too times.

Would be certainly good to see something like that.

While I strongly support decision about limited number of provinces (to keep the numbers manageable), low number of provinces creates its very own batch of troubles for game balance (especially in trade department and budget balance).

 

[unmerged(71032)]

It doesn't need to have an extra stage of production, maybe just a few different requirements, such as a literacy level requirement. This is pretty straightforward stuff, as is comparable to the different types of clothes and furniture in V1.

I understand the similarity (luxury goods cover demand on non-material needs, books cover demand on non-material needs as well), but like I said before, there is a problem with proper representation what makes book different from paper.

In that respect, it's not like luxury cloth/furniture/metals. In manufacturing sense, it's still simple paper factory. Yes, you can make a system where literacy is affecting efficiency of such factory and affects demand on final product. It would make such factory sort of perpetum mobile, getting better and better over time.

Note, that in the same way Vicky 1 didn't have press. It's just a bit problematic to simulate service-based business in material-based economic system.

 

[unmerged(44030)]

There's really no need for more resources. I tried to get my friend to play Vicky 1 and the thing that stopped him from playing was the huge amount of resources. And I totally understand him. When a new player tries to decide if he should sell or buy the resources and how much, while being unsure if he really needs them. Same with me when I started playing; I just bought goods necessary for the military and ignored all these glues, fruits, wines etc. for the rest of the campaign.

If they want to add services, I hope they don't make them as resources. No need to confuse new players any more. Books could just be represented in a new Culture -menu or something and the government could provide financial support for authors (for any author or just the ones that have the same ideology as the government).

 

[unmerged(109898)]

I don't see the problem with services actually. For example, say that we add national services, for example books. We abstract book-publication to the point that factories just churn out a hell of a lot books. Then every event, both hard-coded (Like "Pushkin dies" or "Norways Great Four") and soft-coded, affects the price, demand and such of books. Considering that books also made it outside it's own country, every event that involves a magnificent writer should allow books to be sold to the rest of the world or at least the rest of Europe for a short period of time, thus representing both private persons ordering the books from abroad and publishers getting hold of the same books. Also, shouldn't revolutionary states be able to support publishing of for example Marxist books in other countries to spread the revolution? It happened in RL.

 

[unmerged(81228)]

Does it make for you any difference if you read Phone Book of the Liverpool, Bible, or "Lord of the Rings"? Of course it's a service!

Book, as manufactured good, is just a tool to pass the information, that provides service[/b.

Nope. According to international classiffication books are goods, not services. I guess if somebody read book for someone else, it would be a sevice.

I don't see problem with books/newspapers factory. You don't need to show process of writing, you just need to show process of manufacturing.

I like the idea of services. Of course it is going to be a problem with national/international market -as some services should be consumed nationally, when some can be "sold" internationally - for instance banking services.

 

[unmerged(36774)]

I don't think vanilla game should have more resources than Victoria 1 has. But it would be great for modders, if it was possible to add new resource types. So leave them some free tags, if someone would like to add books, sugar, horses, spices or anything else.

 

[OHgamer]

I don't think vanilla game should have more resources than Victoria 1 has. But it would be great for modders, if it was possible to add new resource types. So leave them some free tags, if someone would like to add books, sugar, horses, spices or anything else.

tags? You're bit behind the times there, Jaeger74 . Since EU3 it's all pretty much open ended, eventually there is a limit on the number of additions to resources, but that appears to be due to the number of graphics that can be added to a specific file if I understand the issues. But that hasn't prevented modders from adding more goods to EU3 mods to I believe double the total number. I expect similar possibilities with V2 :wrings hands in anticipation and glee:

But the days when modders are limited because of a lack of hardcoded tags seems pretty much to have ended with the introduction of Clausewitz.

And people wonder why I've been chomping at the bit for a Victoria time-frame game on the Clausewitz engine. One of the great frustrations as a mod was being unable to add something because of hardcoded tag limits.

 

[unmerged(71032)]

Nope. According to international classiffication books are goods, not services. I guess if somebody read book for someone else, it would be a sevice.

I understand why you don't agree, but I'll repeat why exactly I qualified it, in broad sense, as service.

Books are the carriers of information. As such, it's not the number of books produced that matters, but the very information they contain. If we ignore utilitary books like phone book or other books with standarized content (static information that didn't change in ages) like religious texts and such, we are left with literature. It's the literature that those so called "factories" would supposed to produce.

And literature can't be qualified as material good. Sure, it's not service per se, but delivering non-material goods share much more with services, then material goods. Books cover demand on entertainment just like many of the services - just like the movies mentioned by thread founder. And their production is definetly not something that fits present production model of the Victoria.

It's not neccessary bad - maybe whole economic system should be replaced with something better. But does adding whole extra batch of goods to trade make the system better and realistic option? Especially considering dev diaries statements, where they opt for less intimidating and more new player friendly system?


Anyway, enough walls of text, I'm heading to the nearest book factory. I intend to buy 2 pounds of fresh books, hopefully in nice, brown covers. Fresh from the press, mmm...

 

[unmerged(36774)]

I was actually pretty sure they wouldn't be called 'tags', but didn't find better word. Good to hear that options to mod the game are not so limited anymore.



I have only played EU 3 of those Clausewitz engine games. Not that much of it either, because my computer can't run it too well and I didn't also like it too much. Never really even looked at EU 3 files to know how things were changed.