@Simon_9732495 is correct. SF in this context means "Superior Firepower".
In other contexts SF could also mean "Special Forces" or "Strike Force". Please see HOI4 wiki Jargon.
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Good Germany tank division composition?
- Thread starter TheMoe
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@Simon_9732495 is correct. SF in this context means "Superior Firepower".
In other contexts SF could also mean "Special Forces" or "Strike Force". Please see HOI4 wiki Jargon.
LOL! I had no idea there was a wiki on jargon. That's pretty funny, but I guess it's expected for such a complicated game. I'll have to check it out! Thanks.
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This thread is awesome.
Most of my games have been stalemates that became losses after too many fronts opened and the main fronts went nowhere. Now it makes sense. My infantry divs weren't good at offense (7/2 art) and not ideal on defense either. And I just didn't have enough tank divs.
For those who don't micromanage, is it possible to have like four armies of infantry divs and one army ( up to 24 divs) of tank divs? And just use the infantry armies to hold the line and the tanks to advance with an offensive order?
Most of my games have been stalemates that became losses after too many fronts opened and the main fronts went nowhere. Now it makes sense. My infantry divs weren't good at offense (7/2 art) and not ideal on defense either. And I just didn't have enough tank divs.
For those who don't micromanage, is it possible to have like four armies of infantry divs and one army ( up to 24 divs) of tank divs? And just use the infantry armies to hold the line and the tanks to advance with an offensive order?
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Of course.
I use Infantry with another Field Marshal. 4-5 Inf Armys with 96-120 Divisions. I give them a Field Marshal Frontline without sub army Frontlines, by selecting the Field Marshal and holding SHIFT while drawing the Front line.
Looks like this: (Theses are 2 Armies with 6 Divisions each and blue is the color of the Field Marshal. You dont see the color of the Armies.)
I dont give them an offensive Line or I dont activate the execution. That Field Marshal is just for holding and filling the FrontLine.
I have another Field Marshal for my offensive divisions (usually Tanks). I usually micro my Tanks until the resistance is broken, but you can give them a frontline and offensive line and let the battle plan do the work.
You can also do something in the middle and change the battle plans for the Tanks frequently. E.g a spearhead order to get an encirclement. Then a new order to clear the encirclement or attack somewhere else.
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About infantary divisions.
.I made a ton of tests yesterday and today. Tested up to 11 Different divisions against tanks and infantary. Both attacking and defending.
i did this both to remember myself and to confirm some things around the community.
Those are the rules of thumb.
1-> Defense = Enemy Attack x2 (In a ideal World ) Thats because of a few reasons.
A) 2+ divisions can focusfire and wipe your division quickly from battle. Making a fair fight actually a pretty uneven one.
B) Air superiority will give penaltys to you
C) Without defense you leave the front too quickly. There is no point to have 2000SA if you can´t stay in battle for even 1 day.
Here is a example. (Plains combat)
I made a soviet with Superior Firepower (Shock & Awe + Support routes)
both sides have same year tech (1941).
Air superiority buff his attacks AND nerf my defenses.
Even with a base value of 595 im just barely above his 645 Attack.
Soviets can also reach around 550-600SA with Mass Assault.
And thats with 0 Planning bonus for them and germany do have full Entrenchment bonus!
Tank builds like the ones @Simon_9732495 made can get to 900-1200SA with SF or Mass Assault!
Even reach 1500+ with planning.
When SA surpass defense. Every +100 gives precious hours allowing your division to actually do something steady routing at first sight.
thats how brutal the East and D-Day fronts can get!
Germany Mobile Warfare does not give any Defense or Attack bonus.
Only thing your division is good at is being stubborn.
And they can´t be stubborn if they don´t have defense.
So as Germany Aim for 600+ Defense and go for 700+ later in the war.
And get every defense upgrade your generals/marshals can give for your infantary.
Sacrifice Artilhary if needed, reck, even add a Military Police support if needed.
You need to get those numbers up because the main job of your divisions is to hold any ground your tanks get and stop D-Day so you worry about only 1 front.
Thats why 1939 rifles are so important. They give +50-100 defense and for a doctrine that give no bonuses, technology is the only real way of improving and keeping up.
here is a example. Same division on same general with 1936 vs 1939 rifles. (Template below).
You would be surprised the amount of german players in MP that don´t know why their infantary never hold vs the soviets.
Some just go for SF as it is the "easy route". (not really as the tanks lose a up to 70% breaktrough and you will face other problems ).
While you get a enormous amount of rifles I and II to keep things together rifle III and IV are the ones you need to aim for.
Donate the Rifle I and II to other players later. Italy for example can use some free rifles as they have problems to use 100% of their manpower.
Now that you have defense lets see attack.
Usually 4 art is recommended a lot, but for mobile warfare this is a Trap!
Here is my Barbarrosa infantary division after i did a ton of tests.
Comparing vs the Classic 4 Art division.
that 4art div Soft Attack can be improved but you do sacrifice 1 company. And its not worth it.
If you really wish trade hospital for a MP Squad and get that defense closer to 600 (28Def + 13.5 SA with 1939 Rifles).
People usually talk bad about using MP companys on offensive/defensive divisions. Because they use the 1918-1936 rifles and i agree, with those rifles MP is a bad support company.
After 1939 that squad becomes quite strong. If you're not researching rockets use a MP instead. Its cheap and give good stats.
About HA and Piercing for infantary vs Tanks,
Without complete air superiority infantary will never have a chance vs tanks on a "fair" fight.
-> Basically just get 1 Line or Support. AT and be happy, There is no point going for 2+ AT´s. (Same rule for AA).
To pierce a 1943 tank you need. (Using template above).
-> 1 Line AT with at least 1942 tech.
-> 1942 Rifles
-> 1942 and 1944 Infantary piercing upgrades. The 44 one is kind cheap. With enough tech upgrades you can push a Ahead of time for it. Save it for last.
With this you reach around 65 piercing With just a little dmg you can pierce @Simon_9732495 Division, likely in the middle of the battle he will lose the Armor Bonus.
If you really go for it on factorys you might have everything by mid-end of 1943.
With 1943 AT you can get 77 piercing.
Now everything above is nice on theory.
Pulling it off is the real challenge, To manage the limited amount of factorys is 50% of the challenge as germany.
Also while its good to aim for 1942 rifles as mobile warfare do need them.
Its unlikely you're gonna have a army 100% made of 1942 rifles before 1944 or even 45.
PS: If you need a 20 or 10 Widht division.
Go full infantary and use Eng, AT, AA, Art and Rocket companys.
Those divisions are purely defensive so no need for hospital (As they don´t fight often) or Supply (they are likely on the atlantic wall/Norway).
If you don´t have rocket use a MP.
With 1939 rifles a simple 20 Wifdht full infantary can reach 400-450 defense and around 200 attack
I see your offensive infantry template and have some questions about it. I see that you use hospitals. I can understand why, since it's offensive and you expect to take casualties and want to preserve experience, but is it really worth running hospitals over something like signals or support AA? Hospitals are also expensive. Also, you have line AT and AA as well as support rocket artillery. How do you manage to afford to keep up in research on so many different support companies and the entire artillery tech tree, along with infantry equipment? Do you completely neglect navy? Not research an air doctrine(understandable if MP and you have an air controller, but not in SP)? I don't see how it's possible to stay up to date on all of that and not fall way behind on industry, electronics, air, or tanks in some way. That's to say nothing of all the extra factories you need on the different types of artillery equipment as well as more support equipment and motorized that could be going into more tanks or fighters.
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To understand the value of hospitals you need to understand the value of XP ranks and look the War not in 1941. But in 1943-44. So basically if your game is one that is over by 1942 you are right to ignore Hospitals and use something else. (a MP squad for example).
lets remember the ranks. There are 5 of them. (you know that but im explaining to other people reading this).
Rookie > Trained > Regular > Seasoned > Veteran.
lv3 to 5 give +15% bonus to all stats each.
there have been some time since i tested hospitals but here is the rule of thumb on how they perform.
Without hospitals most units fighting fair fights will be stuck on trained and if beaten badly even rookie sometimes.
Tested again 1942 hospitals just for fun.
On offense they keep you at Regular (+15% bonus). You never fall below 99-95% of trained even when i put CAS to bomb them to dust. (I was attacking the soviet unit i put on the photo that can get 650 SA attack, vs weaker opponents it can keep you at lv3).
On defense =
For Every 48 hours fighting the unit received and kept 1% seasoned XP.
With heavy CAS 1940 bombardment it took 4 days for 1%. Half xp was gone because of cas str dmg but the hospital held the unit on lv3 keeping the +15% bonus.
Anyway. lv3 bonus is kept and even possible to reach lv4 (Seasoned ) and 5 (Veteran) if you don´t suicide the units too often into a very strong enemy defender.
Keeping your forces 1 level above the others in experience keeps the playing field on German Advantage on the east front. Every single troop by the time of barbarrosa need to already have at least lv3. The loss to train everything is big but is worth it and will save you equipment on the long run.
I do not use hospitals on the atlantic. Those units will never see enough fight to justify it. Instead i use a MP support company.
Its a long term plan,you're not gonna see the effects of that company on the start of the war. Its for those scenarios where the MP game is still undecided in mid 1943 or more.
Also its not rare to lose 1million+ troops after 1-2 years of barbarrosa. SAving 20-30% does start to make a difference.
About signal company.
Mobile warfare give +2% reinforcement rate and Marshal +2%. You do not need a Signal company when you have a 11% Reinforcement chance/hour. It will be very very rare to lose a province because you where unable to defend.
Signal is for SF (Some units) and Grandbattleplan (All units).
Now germany on top of all that have a very interesting choice on doctrine.
Go for even more Infantary and tank bonuses with modern Blitzkrieg. Something you really need to stay above the others.
Or go for +5% manpower avoiding having to go for 10% manpower policy. Giving you -10% Factory production.
How you deal with the penalty is up to you.
I do choose modern blitzkrieg route.
Yes, all of that do take a significant control of production. Too much factorys on X item and its over.
I made a quick game here to see how much i would get and this i what i have in june 1941.
Remember i played SP. I have no acess to quick research schemes form MP.
Also i put AI off to run game faster so while its not a perfect result you can more or less see what i can get.
USed free trade like in MP up to 39. After 39 export focus as even on MP is better to get rubber.
On SP you would need to go Export > Limited export.
Rifles -> 1940 Attack / 1938 Defense. Only 1940 defense/breaktrough bonus remaining.
Companys ->Maintance 36, MP 36, Eng 1939, Hospital 1939, Supply 1939. I only go for 42 Hospital/eng after war starts getting it early 42. (and go for maintance 39->42 in one go during 1942).
Tanks -> 1943 Medium tank.
Art -> 1940 line. Only passives waiting rifles to be rdy. (So basically rifles > Companys > Art passives).
Doctrine ->Modern blitzkrieg ending in july. Going for Naval doctrines next.
Navy -> 1940 Subs, Magnetic Mine, Degaussing + Smoke generators . The basic to make subs III, Escape from battles faster and take close to no losses to mines.
Navy doctrine -> Only convoy interdiction. Germany should just go all out naval in 41-42 after having a few dozen subs III and Cruiser subs.
air -> 1940 Fighters and 1940 CAS. I can´t rush 1944 Fighters on SP.
Air doctrine -> Strategic destruction up to Multi-Altitude fighting. Planning to get the last one (logistic bombing) during 1941 but no harms done on the air war.
Engineer -> 1940 tech bonus. Radar 39. (But you only need 38 radar for Poland). 1940 radar needed when soviet front gets stable and also for the +20% AA bonus.
Industry -> Assembly line 1941 almost rdy, factorys 1941 done, Rubber 1941 done, Refining 1939 with 1941 with 300% bonus from focus. Oil Processing waiting 1941 techs to research. You can have the 1943 oil processing with focus but i messes up rushing things and do not wanted to go again ^^.
While the infantary division on the photo above is the Ideal Scenario. I do have the foundations (meaning, equipment) under production and by 1941 i should have everything ready or close to fill the requirements. (For example, rockets you don´t need that much factorys, you're only using for support and that means 12 for division).
Also i don´t use the division above on the Atlantic wall. On the atlantic i use different divisions.
The price of the infantary unit compared to the normal 4 art is just 15% Above.
IT does steal a few factorys but its nothing impossible to overcome.
in MP its way way easier to pull this off.
On SP its more of a challenge as romania , even on expert AI. Does not research Rubber tech making me have to build more refinerys than normal or face convoys getting sunk here and there.
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Some really great info here. For the tank (no SPART) and defensive infantry strategy do you guys prefer the mobile infantry branch for even tougher forces or the blitzkrieg for faster break through? It seems like the defensive infantry are already tough enough without mobile infantry but not really sure on the facts.
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With mobile infantary my infantary on page 1 will jump to absurd 72.6 org. Even if they lose 1org/hour they are gonna hold for 3 days.
It surely helps a ton to keep defending and attacking.
problem is you need to take 2 other powers that are quite useless. At least if you're going for the META of Medium tanks + Infantary.
As mot/mech speed is only useful if you're going Mediums. It also gives recovery rate but you have so few on the divisions its not worth it.
also you get a HUGE boost on org of mot/mech. On top of the +10. (For +25total).
This would in theory allow you to go with even less Trucks.
But going blitzkrieg you already can go 4-6 trucks. In fact going below 150hp is only recommended if you're 100% sure you will never face a CAS in your life.
I can only recommend Mobile Infantary branch tree if you're aiming to use Light tanks and/or fully motorized/mechanized divisions supporting them.
This can win wars if used well because its very very hard to stop a good light tank division. By the time you realize a small gap becomes a flood with more and more german infantary passing and you can´t send them back because the Motorized is holding everything in place. Giving even more space for LT´s to create chaos and take supply citys. Increasing the time your divisions have to wait for equipment.
If you're going for a normal Infantary + medium tank. Stay with Blitzkrieg. (Right branch).
Now no matter the strategy. Always go for at least 40% BReaktrough.
Tanks need 1500+ Breaktrough to work.
So taking mobile infantary means you need to take modern blitzkrieg. (Second right branch).
The only real advantage of mobile warfare is breaktrough. It can be a +20%,40% or 60% bonus
That makes a 1943 Medium AND Heavy tank go from 66 breaktrough to 79,2 (20%)> 92,4 (40% ) > 105,6 (60%) each. (PS: heavy 1943 have 67 breaktrough ^^).
Usually i rather have 60% breaktrough. But this does make me ignore the +5% Manpower boost and that have consequences. .
here is my tank division. (just put 5 attack on the tanks, except tank destroyer that have 5 armor + 2 attack).
im using Soft attack manufacturer. (so armor can go up with porsche).
Also im considering that im gonna face CAS and enemy air superiority.
70% Hardness.
The use of variants does make the division cheaper. 20% compared to @Simon_9732495 but while SA is close.
I do sacrifice HA to get HP and AA.
40% breaktrough using mobile infantary + Modern blitzkrieg.
As you can see the division is not good enough, 1350 breaktrough, even if i get the +10% breaktrough marshal i can barely reach 1500.
This means any soviet unit that have a +15% bonus will break my Breaktrough value and damage the tank.
So if you're going for 40%. Use @Simon_9732495 solution. (pure mediums + trucks only).
Its the only way to make it work. For AA trade the rocket art.
9 Mediums + 1 tank destroyer + 1 SP AA + 1 SP. ART + 5 trucks.
but on 60% breaktrough the division above becomes much better. (Same build as above, just different branch of the doctrine).
im much safer and i can reach close to 1700breaktrough using the marshal. This means 2 divisions of infantary need to do 800+ dmg to be a danger.
now its something worth considering and the one i actually use.
Now here is the Heavy tank variant. For those wanting to use Variant´s. (1941 heavy tank variants).
The main advantage of this division is you can´t pierce this division unless you have a medium Tank Destroyer with 5 Attack.
PS: No porshe manufacter, no armor on the SPG´s or Mediums. So it can reach 95+armor. If your opponent can pierce you. Remove a support company ^^.
PS: IF you find breaktrough too low. Remove 1 Artilhary and the heavy AA. Place +2 medium tanks instead.
Also trade rocket support for AA.
10 Mediums + 4 Trucks + 1 Heavy tank Destroyer + 3 Heavy SP. Artilhary + 1 Heavy SP AA.
PS: Superior firepower, Battleplan and MAss Assault Divisions are different monsters and will demand different infantary divisions and tank divisions.
For example, Using for example my infantary division with battleplan is not gonna work very well. You're gonna feel a lack of SA because Grandbattleplan and SF allows for more Art. without sacrificing much.
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im calculating 2 defensive units reaching 600-800 Soft attack. 1200-1600 total. The exact number depends on year of technology, experience of unit, his generals, player choice for divisions, etc. Too much to predict and calculate.
Also it makes sure in a tank vs tank you will not have to worry 1 tank + 1 infantary will completely beat your defenses.
While the armor should protect the tank from the worst, having the breaktrough pierced is still problematic.
but i will admit im playing on the safeside here.
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Are we not neglecting the fact that your division is 70% hard? 1600*0.3 = 480 soft attacks taken. The enemy would also have to have approximately 725 hard attack in addition to 800 soft attack to do more than scratch the paint on a 1500 breakthrough division. That's completely unreasonable unless we're talking about enemy tanks, which your divisions are unoptimized to deal with. And why do you require that your base breakthrough, without modifiers, beat that attack, which is clearly with modifiers. Give your tanks a general + field marshal that have panzer expert and aggressive assaulter. That, by itself, is worth a multiplicative +30% breakthrough even if we ignore their defense stats which range from +3.75% to +37.5% breakthrough. With an armor high command, you have another 10-15% multiplicative bonus to breakthrough. Your 1300 breakthrough division is going to have well over 1500 breakthrough when actually in combat.
Bringing only one single fully upgraded SPAA3 is a weird middle ground. I cant say it's wrong, but your divisions would have got the same CAS damage reduction from a single 1936 support AA. And they are still penalized by -1.87% speed and -6.87% defense and breakthrough if your opponent has no air superiority modifiers. If they have +60% air superiority, which you can be sure that a competent air controller will, that rises to -27.87% defense and breakthrough. Better to use a pair of SPAA to get the full unmodified penalty removed and get only -15.87% breakthrough penalty from a full tryhard air controller.
The SPGs are another thing that bothers me. This comment by @Corpse Fool goes into why medium SPG are not worth more than simply bringing tanks. They bring about the same soft attack per width for half the cost, but cost 33% more supply. They give up on hp, org, recovery, hard attack, breakthrough, defense, armor, and piercing. Your TD is mostly just trying (and failing) to replace the hard attack lost by bringing the SPG. It's still 28 hard attack shy of not bringing either. All for an extra 9.5 soft attack. The thing is that tanks do not need help breaking infantry, that's a win more. What they do need help with are CAS and tanks. CAS are mitigated by SPAA and tanks are mitigated by TD. Neither of which require SPG. Better to drop the SPG and TD, and replace them with another SPAA and two tanks. If you want to keep the TD for piercing, then it's reasonable to bring a single one if it makes the difference as the first TD brings the largest boost to piercing. Unless your opponent is making 17-3 heavy-mech, that should be sufficient to pierce. And while it's 15.2 soft attack shy of your division, it's 40 hard attack and 2.5 piercing higher.
Bringing four fully upgraded variants is hell on xp. At minimum that's 1800 xp just to get +5 gun and speed on all your variants. Plus however much you spend on maintenance. If you don't go full speed upgrades, then why bother with mot? Mech 2 brings much more to the offing than mot does. And if you do go full speed upgrades, mech 3 can still keep up. If you're worried about hp, which is a valid worry to have, you should be using mech for their +20% hp. 15-4-2 mech is also over 150 hp. And if you know that you can control air and don't have to worry about CAS, 17-3 has a respectable 124 hp. Its not going to get strength-deleted from the map as a pure tank division with only 40 hp would. Amtracs are even better than mech. They also have the +20% hp, but give more org from the special forces tree and some very nice terrain modifiers for crossing rivers and marsh fighting. Blasting through the Pripyat with tank-amtrac divisions is not something that is generally expected. It can catch a Germany completely off guard.
And now on to the supports. Arty and r.arty both play the same role that the SPG do. They increase the soft attack, which your tanks don't actually need to break stacks of infantry. But they do lower org, recovery, armor, and piercing. They both, together, provide an additional 66.3 soft attack, which is nothing to sneer at, but that only accounts for 10% more damage. Better to have gone with SF doctrine if that was what you were after, as that gives tanks +20% damage. But the added tech cost that you spend on them could more efficiently have been spent on something that brings more to the division, such as mech or amtracs. Logistics is probably worthwhile lategame, but until supply becomes a problem, youre just reducing armor and piercing. Maintenance is redundant, you can boost reliability on your tanks to 100%. Light tanks recon is probably the best recon to bring as it doesn't negatively affect your armor and piercing as much as other recons do, but why would you bring it before maxing speed upgrades? The recon stat is functionally useless, recon's primary advantage is the speed bonus. But the lack of engineers is what really kills me. Engineers are, hands down, the best and most useful and efficient support. They should go on every division you make. The terrain bonuses they provide by themselves pay for the cost they add to the division.
And the final division you presented is just painful to look at. Mixing mediums with heavies provides the downsides of both with the advantages of neither. It has heavy speed, so you might as well just replace the mot with cav. And it has slightly above medium attack and armor stats so they can still be pierced by infantry AT divisions, which will trade very cost-efficiently. The HSPAA doesn't have much more air attack than MSPAA do, but cost 31% more ic, so bringing them is throwing production away. As above, SPG win more, they're completely unnecessary to move stacks of infantry, but make your division worse at dealing with supply, CAS, AT, and enemy tanks.
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@el nora
For 1941 yes. That breaktrough is overkill.
But are you planning to end the war by december 1941?
The opponent is still researching passives and producing better equipment.
This is specially true for the allies on D-Day or after a year or two of atrittion wifh the opponents getting better and better and you having nowhere to go. You're already on tank 1943 and tanks 1945 are never gonna be researched in time to change the situation.
but they still have things to improve on infantary, etc.
This unit below is basically 1940 equipment.
I only added all passives + 1943 Art.
as you can see i pretty much reached 1600SA,. Im don´t even have trained generals and other things you can do in a MP (Be in vanilla or mods) to push this even higher. (For example, make the unit seasoned for +15% ).
Also add the fact your tank division will have around 150-200HP.
it will lose Strengh and a reduction in its BASE value (before calculations) equal to the amount damage.
Its not rare at all to run around with a tank at 90-95% str. As waiting for new tanks can take up to 20 days and thats way too long in the middle of a fight.
1500 - 10% = 1350. Now you add the bonus and you will barely reach 1600+ even if you add the 20% bonus from Commander + Marshal.
CAS DAmage reduction is directly proportional to the AA Attack value of your division.
With Sup. AA 1940 with full passives (1943) gives you -13.7% reduction. Unless you go for AA III you will not get better than this.
With Medium SP.AA 1943 you have -19.9% reduction. Usually the difference is bigger as you usually stop AA on 1940-41.
But the good things is. Under pressure you can combine both to get 27%.
3 pictures showing it on the spoiler.
Of course, different games will demand slight variations. I don´t know if you game use Mods, if its vanilla, if your germany loses/win air in the end.
Everygame is different. What i posted above is just a base and you modify and adapt to the situation he needs.
If you want to bring 1 SPAA also bring a single Medium SP. Art. The tech is cheap, the demand for equipment is super small and it will make your tank division way cheaper reducing greatly the pressure on your factorys.
2 SPAA´s is overkill. and SPAA is a oddnumber division that cost 1 widht.
You can put 2 medium tanks or go for 2 SP Arts sure.
But again, medium SP Arts are not worth it. Like you yourself pointed out.
For me this very small sacrifice is worth that extra 7-10% air protection. When you reach the scale of 1000+ in stats like breaktrough or SA any 1% becomes important.
The Tank destroyer is not there to addHeavy Attack. He only have 2 attack upgrades reason he is "failing" to bring any HA.
Its there to add Armor!
This way you save Army XP in 1941 as your medium tank is already too busy focusing on Speed, Attack and Reliability. (And you do want your tanks with 100% reliability even if it makes them worse. No point having the super division if your factorys can´t keep up with the losses + Atrition).
Variants also you don´t have to care for reliability. They are so few in numbers that its easy to replenish them even if you have dozens of tank divisions.
Meaning they cost "only" 100XP each. (And the artilhary you can even ignore if XP is needed somewhere).
that saves your main tank to have all the XP for Attack/Speed + Reliability.
And you can have the division done with less than 500 army XP. (of course you do want to improve everything as the war goes on, but it can wait).
about art - rocket -> We're talking about 1 Org, 1.5 armor and 1.5 piercing for each company. That for +30+SA , Defense, BReaktrough. Its worth it.
Logistics -> Adding a company in the middle of a intense war is very complicated. Either way you need to have the factorys producing and have a stockpile ready and wait 1 month+ for it to reach the front. Much better already have it in place and start 1941 with it.
Maintance company -> A 5/5/5/5 tank have 80% reliability.
At reliability 5 your tank can only support 6 points total in Attack + Armor. (For 96%, still gonna sting here nad there as a full mediumtank division have 600 tanks).
With the company you can push for the 5/5/5/5 tank eventually.
1 point of extra armor on the tank will pay for any armor the company is removing.
At least we both agree LT recon is better, and for those that don´t know. Like MP. LT 1940 does improve the LTreconsquad stats. Not a priority but it does give a small boost to the division.
About armor.
You have around 90-95 armor with 2-3 companys.
The division i made reach 92.4 with 5 companys and the TD still having 3 points to spare in attack.
In fact a Medium tank + 1 TD both with 5 attack can reach 110+ piercing.
Again, the division above is not made with the tanks full on XP. They're made with around 500XP total! You will not have 1000+XP to send on tanks in 1941.
Actually all those divisions are way cheap on XP because they don´t need to be 5/5/5/5.
I explained how much XP i put on the division above.
around 500 only for everything. There is a huge untapped potential in that division as you get more XP and improve it.
Here is the division by spending 1400 XP and using porsche Manufacturer.
There is no point removing company for piercing. I already reach 100+
About armor every company removed adds +1.9. Its ok but you're gonna pierce the opponent and he is gonna pierce you even if you both reach 90%str.
There is no point trying to go "naked" and sacrifice other stuff.
Tank -> 5 armor + 5 attack + 5 reliability . With company it will have 95% reliability. 625 xp
TD -> 5 armor + 5 attack reliability 55-60% -> With only 24 for division atrittion is just a number
SPart -> 5 armor. Its just 1 batallion
SP AA -> 5 armor + 5 attack -> again. With just a dozen AA, Atrittion is just a number.
And why botter with motorized?
Because MEchs 1939 is useless and a trap. And 1942 Mechs is out of reach before barbarrosa.
Also mechanized cost rubber.
Heavy tank 1943
67 breaktrough
35 SA
42 HA
95% Hardness
price: 30 + 4 steel and 3 chromium
1943 medium tank
66 breaktrough
32SA
42HA
price: 14 + 4 steel + 2 tungstem
Organization , hardness and a few other things.
Cav don´t get most bonuses from the doctrine.
No porsche upgrade.
Only TD have 5 armor, i don´t remember now if that unit have 2 on attack or 0. (I don´t have the save anymore to check it).
If you're going heavy SP. Artilhary you have no point in ignoring the AA and TD versions.
Hey, i said clearly that division is not recommended. Me myself never really used that one.
But i knew a player or two that used with sucess. How he managed to balance the production etc i had no idea ^^.
the only advantage of going medium + heavy is you do have a bigger potential once you unlock 1943 Heavy tanks/Super HEavy tanks
(Yes, im using 1941 heavy tanks there).
its way way harder to manage production , etc. Much easier to stick with mediums
but not everyone likes to play the same way.
Some for example use LT´s to great effect.
this is not a game of where "one formula" beats all.
We can only give a starting point.
Its up to the player to do the rest.
For 1941 yes. That breaktrough is overkill.
But are you planning to end the war by december 1941?
The opponent is still researching passives and producing better equipment.
This is specially true for the allies on D-Day or after a year or two of atrittion wifh the opponents getting better and better and you having nowhere to go. You're already on tank 1943 and tanks 1945 are never gonna be researched in time to change the situation.
but they still have things to improve on infantary, etc.
This unit below is basically 1940 equipment.
I only added all passives + 1943 Art.
as you can see i pretty much reached 1600SA,. Im don´t even have trained generals and other things you can do in a MP (Be in vanilla or mods) to push this even higher. (For example, make the unit seasoned for +15% ).
Also add the fact your tank division will have around 150-200HP.
it will lose Strengh and a reduction in its BASE value (before calculations) equal to the amount damage.
Its not rare at all to run around with a tank at 90-95% str. As waiting for new tanks can take up to 20 days and thats way too long in the middle of a fight.
1500 - 10% = 1350. Now you add the bonus and you will barely reach 1600+ even if you add the 20% bonus from Commander + Marshal.
CAS DAmage reduction is directly proportional to the AA Attack value of your division.
With Sup. AA 1940 with full passives (1943) gives you -13.7% reduction. Unless you go for AA III you will not get better than this.
With Medium SP.AA 1943 you have -19.9% reduction. Usually the difference is bigger as you usually stop AA on 1940-41.
But the good things is. Under pressure you can combine both to get 27%.
3 pictures showing it on the spoiler.
Combined.
AA 1940 with all passive upgrades
Medium SP AA 1943 with 5 Attack.
AA 1940 with all passive upgrades
Medium SP AA 1943 with 5 Attack.
Of course, different games will demand slight variations. I don´t know if you game use Mods, if its vanilla, if your germany loses/win air in the end.
Everygame is different. What i posted above is just a base and you modify and adapt to the situation he needs.
If you want to bring 1 SPAA also bring a single Medium SP. Art. The tech is cheap, the demand for equipment is super small and it will make your tank division way cheaper reducing greatly the pressure on your factorys.
2 SPAA´s is overkill. and SPAA is a oddnumber division that cost 1 widht.
You can put 2 medium tanks or go for 2 SP Arts sure.
But again, medium SP Arts are not worth it. Like you yourself pointed out.
For me this very small sacrifice is worth that extra 7-10% air protection. When you reach the scale of 1000+ in stats like breaktrough or SA any 1% becomes important.
The Tank destroyer is not there to addHeavy Attack. He only have 2 attack upgrades reason he is "failing" to bring any HA.
Its there to add Armor!
This way you save Army XP in 1941 as your medium tank is already too busy focusing on Speed, Attack and Reliability.
(And you do want your tanks with 100% reliability even if it makes them worse. No point having the super division if your factorys can´t keep up with the losses + Atrition).Variants also you don´t have to care for reliability. They are so few in numbers that its easy to replenish them even if you have dozens of tank divisions.
Meaning they cost "only" 100XP each. (And the artilhary you can even ignore if XP is needed somewhere).
that saves your main tank to have all the XP for Attack/Speed + Reliability.
And you can have the division done with less than 500 army XP. (of course you do want to improve everything as the war goes on, but it can wait).
about art - rocket -> We're talking about 1 Org, 1.5 armor and 1.5 piercing for each company. That for +30+SA , Defense, BReaktrough. Its worth it.
Logistics -> Adding a company in the middle of a intense war is very complicated. Either way you need to have the factorys producing and have a stockpile ready and wait 1 month+ for it to reach the front. Much better already have it in place and start 1941 with it.
Maintance company -> A 5/5/5/5 tank have 80% reliability.
At reliability 5 your tank can only support 6 points total in Attack + Armor. (For 96%, still gonna sting here nad there as a full mediumtank division have 600 tanks).
With the company you can push for the 5/5/5/5 tank eventually.
1 point of extra armor on the tank will pay for any armor the company is removing.
At least we both agree LT recon is better, and for those that don´t know. Like MP. LT 1940 does improve the LTreconsquad stats. Not a priority but it does give a small boost to the division.
About armor.
You have around 90-95 armor with 2-3 companys.
The division i made reach 92.4 with 5 companys and the TD still having 3 points to spare in attack.
In fact a Medium tank + 1 TD both with 5 attack can reach 110+ piercing.
Again, the division above is not made with the tanks full on XP. They're made with around 500XP total! You will not have 1000+XP to send on tanks in 1941.
Actually all those divisions are way cheap on XP because they don´t need to be 5/5/5/5.
I explained how much XP i put on the division above.
around 500 only for everything. There is a huge untapped potential in that division as you get more XP and improve it.
Here is the division by spending 1400 XP and using porsche Manufacturer.
There is no point removing company for piercing. I already reach 100+
About armor every company removed adds +1.9. Its ok but you're gonna pierce the opponent and he is gonna pierce you even if you both reach 90%str.
There is no point trying to go "naked" and sacrifice other stuff.
Tank -> 5 armor + 5 attack + 5 reliability . With company it will have 95% reliability. 625 xp
TD -> 5 armor + 5 attack reliability 55-60% -> With only 24 for division atrittion is just a number
SPart -> 5 armor. Its just 1 batallion
SP AA -> 5 armor + 5 attack -> again. With just a dozen AA, Atrittion is just a number.
And why botter with motorized?
Because MEchs 1939 is useless and a trap. And 1942 Mechs is out of reach before barbarrosa.
Also mechanized cost rubber.
Heavy tank 1943
67 breaktrough
35 SA
42 HA
95% Hardness
price: 30 + 4 steel and 3 chromium
1943 medium tank
66 breaktrough
32SA
42HA
price: 14 + 4 steel + 2 tungstem
Organization , hardness and a few other things.
Cav don´t get most bonuses from the doctrine.
No porsche upgrade.
Only TD have 5 armor, i don´t remember now if that unit have 2 on attack or 0. (I don´t have the save anymore to check it).
If you're going heavy SP. Artilhary you have no point in ignoring the AA and TD versions.
Hey, i said clearly that division is not recommended. Me myself never really used that one.
But i knew a player or two that used with sucess. How he managed to balance the production etc i had no idea ^^.
the only advantage of going medium + heavy is you do have a bigger potential once you unlock 1943 Heavy tanks/Super HEavy tanks
(Yes, im using 1941 heavy tanks there).
its way way harder to manage production , etc. Much easier to stick with mediums
but not everyone likes to play the same way.
Some for example use LT´s to great effect.
this is not a game of where "one formula" beats all.
We can only give a starting point.
Its up to the player to do the rest.
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No. That breakthrough is overkill in 1943 and in 1945. Your own example proves it.
The infantry you displayed have 803 soft attack, 120 hard attack. Which means they deal 803*0.8 + 120*0.7 = 324.9 attacks to a 70% hard division, as your proposed division is. Together, they deal 649.8 attacks per hour. Go ahead and push that higher. With good generals, more veterancy, and more intel, you could get close to 1k attacks after accounting for hardness. Like I said, it barely scratches the paint of a 1300 breakthrough division. That is well underneath the breakthrough that even a 12-8 division brings. And you could have brought much less because all that excess breakthrough is doing nothing. It cannot block attacks that are not being made.
With 90% of attacks blocked for being under breakthrough, the tanks suffer 65 landed attacks per hour. Assuming the infantry can't pierce, you take -50% strength damage. All told, the tanks will take about 0.135-0.27 hp damage and per hour. In order to reach 10% hp damage dealt, they would need to be in continuous combat, with no opportunity to reinforce, for about 76 hours. Your assumption is farcical, they don't have the org to sustain such an attack, and would have already pushed aside the infantry many times over in that time period.
And even if you are running around with 90% strength divisions without letting them recover for some ungodly reason, they still have enough breakthrough to counter double the infantry attacks. And it does still reach 1500 * 0.9 (strength reduction) * 1.30 (general + fm traits are 20% each) = 1755 breakthrough. That's a tad more than 1600. And that's lowballing the number. If we instead highball the number by including such things as general and fm defense, armor genius, event modifiers, tactics, veterancy, etc. we get over 5k breakthrough. While still at 90% strength. Like I said, it's overkill even for 1945.
False. 1936 support AA reduce strength and org damage dealt by cas by -75%. That is the full reduction that any amount of AA will cause.
That is the reduction to the air superiority penalty to breakthrough and speed. That is not the CAS damage reduction.
I know all about that, I was the one that worked out the formula. Apologies to anyone here that knew it before me, but it wasn't on the wiki when I did my tests and a search here did not uncover any results. Those on reddit that I expected to know did not in fact know it.
So as we can see, even if we were to assume, arguendo, that this was the CAS damage reduction factor, which it's not, that still wouldn't be directly proportional to AA value of your division. It's proportional to 70*AA/(112+AA). ie, it grows linearly when AA is small, and levels off to a constant as AA tends to larger values. Which is why 1936 support AA is the most efficient AA that exists. It provides the single greatest ratio of air superiority penalty reduction per ic spent.
As I said, your 75.25 air attack from a single SPAA3 with +5 gun reduces the max red air -35% air superiority penalty by 70*75.25/(112+75.25) = 28.13 percentage points. Or, in other words, you're left with a -6.87% breakthrough penalty. If your opponent stacks air superiority modifiers, they can reach +60%, meaning the penalty they can impose on your divisions is increased to -35%*1.6 = -56%. The SPAA doesn't change its penalty reduction, it's not proportional to the max penalty, so you'd still be stuck with a -27.87% breakthrough penalty.
To fully counteract the base -35% penalty, you would need to bring 112 air attack. A pair of MSPAA3 with +5 guns have 150.5 air attack, which is enough to counteract 70*150.5/(112+150.5) = 40.13 percentage points. Since adding more air attack counters less of the cumulative penalty, you would require 112*(1+0.6)/(1-0.6) = 448 air attack to fully counter a dedicated air controller with +60% air superiority. That would require bringing 6 SPAA brigades, which simply isn't worth it. Two is the most you should bother bringing.
Not really. In vanilla sp, the player should win air, whichever side they play. Unless they deliberately abandon it.
In mp, Soviets will invariably lose air, so they don't make it in the first place, and rely on SPAA. Germany wins air in the east, but can't sustain in the west when the USA ramps up production. So they don't use AA in their Barbarossa divisions, but do put them into their Atlantikwall divisions.
As I showed above, a pair of SPAA are not overkill. They are precisely the required amount of kill. And with an even number of SPAA, you don't need to fix an odd width, negating the need for SPG.
But saying that SPG are cheap and do not reduce the pressure on your factories is completely missing the point. They cost more supply use, and they lower hp, recovery, armor, and breakthrough, all of which cause you to bleed more relative hp damage in actual ic. And for what benefit? Their soft attack per width is not significantly greater than the tanks'. As if it matters if it were. Tanks don't need the help in pushing aside infantry. But they also significantly reduce hard attack and piercing, causing your tanks to perform poorly against enemy tanks, which is a huge detriment.
I was using maxed gun upgrade stats to compare attacks. 1 TD, 1 SPG and 1 SPAA all together, each with +5 gun upgrades have under 10 more soft attack than 3 medium tanks with +5 gun upgrades, and 28 less hard attack. If you only gave the 2 gun upgrades, then that's even worse than what I had initially wrote.The Tank destroyer is not there to addHeavy Attack. He only have 2 attack upgrades reason he is "failing" to bring any HA.
Its there to add Armor!
This way you save Army XP in 1941 as your medium tank is already too busy focusing on Speed, Attack and Reliability.
Variants also you don´t have to care for reliability. They are so few in numbers that its easy to replenish them even if you have dozens of tank divisions.
Meaning they cost "only" 100XP each. (And the artilhary you can even ignore if XP is needed somewhere).
that saves your main tank to have all the XP for Attack/Speed + Reliability.
And you can have the division done with less than 500 army XP. (of course you do want to improve everything as the war goes on, but it can wait).
If it's there to bring armor, it's doing a poor job of it. That division could have 10 more armor at the same speed if you had just brought mechs and upgraded the armor on your tanks. I don't understand why, if you're rolling around at 10.5 km/h anyway, with maintenance companies, you would choose to not upgrade your tank armor in addition to the guns for a bigger general boost instead of just upgrading the TD armor for the highest value. Tanks and TD have the same armor values so upgrading the tanks provides more of a bonus as they make up a greater percentage of the division. And that way you can reduce the complexity of the division by bringing one variant less.
No. It's about 1.5-2.5 org each and 2-3 each of piercing and armor. That loss in org is over 10% of the total org of the division, which is a huge loss. The loss in armor/piercing is the difference between piercing vs not piercing enemy tanks or being armored vs getting pierced by enemy infantry-AT divisions. Those values are nothing to sneer at. The soft attack is purely a win more. It is absolutely unnecessary to beat infantry, they didn't need the help. However bringing it makes your tanks fight worse against enemy tanks, which will turn wins into losses.
It is absolutely not worth it, and there's a reason you never see any form of artillery being used in conjunction with tanks in competitive games.
Why do you not have a surplus of support equipment and motorized already? They're literally the only things you should have been producing in the early game that don't become obsolete by the time the war starts.
It doesn't take a month to reach the front. For one thing, materiel flows into divisions extremely quickly. It's manpower that takes time to trickle in. But since the logistics company is less than 10% of the total divisional manpower, it won't take more than a single reinforcement tick to fill up.
Why are you upgrading both guns and armor? That reduces speed as well. Just pick one or the other and stick with it. 0/5/5/5 or 5/0/5/5 both have 100% reliability, are faster than the mot, and have either maxed armor or maxed guns. The meta is to max guns and use the heavy designer. Because soft attack is not what the tanks need more of, rather hard attack.
You can pull shenanigans by using 17-3 heavy mech with full armor instead of guns. That's unpiercable by any amount of MTD or HT, you force your opponent's hand into HTD. If they were doing a medium build, you delay their ability to counter by a year or more.
No, MP is trash. And LT recon is only worth their cost if you go SF doctrine.
Which is why upgrading armor is meaningless. Enemy tanks will pierce you regardless. Better to not waste the xp and keep the reliability and speed. However, those support companies make the difference between getting pierced by 15-10 inf-AT or not.
100+ piercing doesn't pierce a halfway competent HT division. Even a weak 15-5 HT-cav have 112 armor before supports, which means your 100+ piercing division is going to get slaughtered if it tries to contest heavies. And since Soviets make heavies, you're going to have a very bad time in mp with such a weak division.
1942 mechs are easily attainable before Barbarossa. And mot also cost rubber. The same amount of rubber. So that's not an argument.
So we agree, good.
HT have 9.4% more soft attack. You mixed up the number in the MT hard attack, it should be 24, not 42. So HT have 75% more hard attack. HT also have 44.4% more armor and piercing.
Like I stated above, soft attack and breakthrough are not the stats that tanks need to stack more of. They already have enough. The extra soft attack from HT are just a bonus. It's all the rest of the stats that HT bring that cause them to fight better than MT.
Cost.
Cav already start with 70 org to mot's base 60, so they need less from doctrine to equalize. With MW, cav end up with less. But with SF, cav have more.
Hardness is basically meaningless. Mot accounted for 20% of your division, and at 10% hardness, they provide 2% to the total hardness. That's not so great a difference that would preclude me from using cav.
I never recommended ignoring HTD. HTD is best TD. Well, US designed HTD is best, but whatever.
You absolutely should ignore HSPAA if you already have MT. Fully upgraded HSPAA bring 77 AA to MSPAA's 75.25. The difference between those two numbers is 70*77/(112+77) - 70*75.25/(112+75.25) = 0.38 percentage points of air superiority penalty reduced. Yes, that's less than a half a percentage point. For a 31% increase in cost. And if you bring a pair, as I recommend, both will negate the base -35% penalty, however the mediums will do it for cheaper.
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@el nora
instead of the two of us talking about very hidden mechanics and trying to "convert" each other to their vision of what a best tank must be vs barbarrosa.
Post the tank division you use before barbarrosa in a MP >). (And how much Army XP you where able to use).
Its better to compare this way. BEcause the posts are going from Big to Extreme. (I do like to talk about this but when it reaches 2+ Hours to respond someone it becomes a little too much lol).
instead of the two of us talking about very hidden mechanics and trying to "convert" each other to their vision of what a best tank must be vs barbarrosa.
Post the tank division you use before barbarrosa in a MP >). (And how much Army XP you where able to use).
Its better to compare this way. BEcause the posts are going from Big to Extreme. (I do like to talk about this but when it reaches 2+ Hours to respond someone it becomes a little too much lol).
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My typical Soviet SF Heavy template for Barbarossa. 12 HT3 with 0/5/5/5 upgrades (675 xp), 7 amtrac1, and 2 HSPAA3 with 0/5/0/5 upgrades (325 xp) altogether 1000 xp. Getting that xp from Spanish and Chinese volunteers is doable. Upgrade to amtrac2 is underway and will complete in 1942. Engineer3 is important to get asap, but you can have non-ahead-of-time signals. Infantry weapons were not touched. Ostensibly, that can wait until the war starts, but in a real game you would have at least IE2 done before Barbarossa. The initial tech in the top branch of special forces was researched for the +5 org on amtracs, the last tech in the tree will give another +5 org, so it should be taken by 1943. You still have the -2 year ahead of time bonus from the tank treaty, so either 1942 MT3 or 1943 Moderns are being researched.
My typical German MW Medium template for Barbarossa. 14 MT3 with 0/5/5/5 upgrades (675 xp), 5 mech2, and 1 MTD3 with 0/5/0/5 upgrades (325 xp) altogether 1000 xp. Germany should have that xp, but you can send an attache to Japan and guns to Manchukuo if you need more. Upgrade to mech3 will not be complete until 1943. Again, enginer3 is essential, and signals may be kept at non-ahead-of-time. To keep things fair, I again didn't touch infantry weapons, though Germany should be slightly ahead of the Soviets in that category.
@el nora
the heavy im not even gonna talk much because its on a whole different level. Its like comparing a Nascar car to a Formula 1.
Its a 11.000IC tank division that i can mass produce vs a 18000IC tank division that you will clearly only have some by 1941.
You do not have to be only better, you have of course to completely outclass the cheaper tank division to compensate the huge difference in numbers.
but i do like it because it does play on the Mobile Warfare philosopy of staying ahead of the enemy in technology.
but i usually avoid this kind of divisions. Price is too big and losing one of those divisions to bad luck, micro etc can really cost the game while the 9-13k cost divisions you complain but can still replace it.
Reason a few players managed to master mixing the tanks. Im not one of them of course. My specialization is on navy .
So lets go more for the medium that is closer in price.
My division cost 10k IC and yours 13 K ic.
Its a 30% price difference. That is clearly gonna show on the amount of divisions and in how easy it is to replace atrittion and damage.
You also have 0AA on the medium. Again, different games, house rules, opponent, etc but lets ignore that and focus on the land aspect.
Speed -> 10.5km vs 11 km. No real difference and i still can place 5 points in speed. (gonna cost a arm but the soviet front does provide the xp).
HP -> Of course mechanized helps a ton here, and i do plan to place mechanized later in the war but for 41 i stick with MOT´s to use the research somewhere else.
organization -> You have +8. Its the real difference. You are likely using Mobile Infantary + M. Blitzkrieg. (or blitzkrieg + desperate defense). The 3 less companys does not explain the difference.
Anyway, any tank above 30 have enough org to push at least 3-4 provinces in a row. (As they lose 6ORG everytime they take a province).
Your division can go 4-5provinces before running out of org.
Recovery -> While i have less Org i do have a slight better Recovery rate. and i do not used the +8 Recovery army commander and im not using the +10% recovery marshal power. (went for reinforcement). I think i can manage to get +0.1/hour and that is enough to make a difference in how much you have to wait to push again.
Supply -> 3.25 vs 4.24. You will clearly have less tanks + infantary in key positions by ignoring supply companys. Also demand more factorys on Fuel!
If you add the company your tank is gonna lose Stats.
Reliability -> You need to compensate the +10% reliabiloity. I can aim for 85% reliability tanks. (maintance in 42 give +15%)
I also can recover quite a lot of equipment as tanks do a good amount of damage. That does help quite a bit my factorys.
Soft Attack and Hard attack -> I Traded 100 Hard attack for +100 Soft attack. With the main objetive being pushing infantary i don´t regret that trade.
AA -> i have AA you don´t. Not much to talk about this.
Defense -> 304 vs 417. Both values still too low to deal with a 500+ Hard attack from a tank on defense. The difference completely comes from the mechanized.
Breaktrough -> 1340 vs 1511. And you have more tank batallions.
So the difference is not coming from anything "magical" im using. IF i used your division i would get close to 2100 breaktrough. (And thats indeed a total overkill lol).
That means you're likely going Mobile infantary instead of normal Blitzkrieg. (again another difference in how we aproach the problem).
Armor and piercing -> We both have more than enough armor. (71 was without porsche manufacturer and upgrades on armor).
And both can easily pierce each other.
Even the heavy tank is vulnerable if i place a few extra points in the TD and remove maybe 1 company. (As i would see you're using heavy and that does demand changes as im expecting to fight mediums).
I see no point for Radio company when you're already have a passive 11% reinforcement.
You have a 50% chance of reinforcing a battle in the first 5 hours at 11%
At best you can get is 50% after 4 hours with company 39. (as you're not ahead of time).
better spend that company with something else.
The real advantage of your division is Hardness.
But that hardness come from the Mechanized, not because you're making any revolution to the divisions me or simon posted.
and you're paying the price for it as your division is by far the most expensive of all.
Its a good division. but does have its drawbacks and its the quality vs quantity.
While Mobile is a division that demands better technology compared to other majors.
Its too easy to go overkill and sacrifice in other areas that can cost the game.
PS: Your allies in your game really don´t liking donating planes to the USSR right?
the heavy im not even gonna talk much because its on a whole different level. Its like comparing a Nascar car to a Formula 1.
Its a 11.000IC tank division that i can mass produce vs a 18000IC tank division that you will clearly only have some by 1941.
You do not have to be only better, you have of course to completely outclass the cheaper tank division to compensate the huge difference in numbers.
but i do like it because it does play on the Mobile Warfare philosopy of staying ahead of the enemy in technology.
but i usually avoid this kind of divisions. Price is too big and losing one of those divisions to bad luck, micro etc can really cost the game while the 9-13k cost divisions you complain but can still replace it.
Reason a few players managed to master mixing the tanks. Im not one of them of course.
My specialization is on navy .So lets go more for the medium that is closer in price.
My division cost 10k IC and yours 13 K ic.
Its a 30% price difference. That is clearly gonna show on the amount of divisions and in how easy it is to replace atrittion and damage.
You also have 0AA on the medium. Again, different games, house rules, opponent, etc but lets ignore that and focus on the land aspect.
Speed -> 10.5km vs 11 km. No real difference and i still can place 5 points in speed. (gonna cost a arm but the soviet front does provide the xp).
HP -> Of course mechanized helps a ton here, and i do plan to place mechanized later in the war but for 41 i stick with MOT´s to use the research somewhere else.
organization -> You have +8. Its the real difference. You are likely using Mobile Infantary + M. Blitzkrieg. (or blitzkrieg + desperate defense). The 3 less companys does not explain the difference.
Anyway, any tank above 30 have enough org to push at least 3-4 provinces in a row. (As they lose 6ORG everytime they take a province).
Your division can go 4-5provinces before running out of org.
Recovery -> While i have less Org i do have a slight better Recovery rate. and i do not used the +8 Recovery army commander and im not using the +10% recovery marshal power. (went for reinforcement). I think i can manage to get +0.1/hour and that is enough to make a difference in how much you have to wait to push again.
Supply -> 3.25 vs 4.24. You will clearly have less tanks + infantary in key positions by ignoring supply companys. Also demand more factorys on Fuel!
If you add the company your tank is gonna lose Stats.
Reliability -> You need to compensate the +10% reliabiloity. I can aim for 85% reliability tanks. (maintance in 42 give +15%)
I also can recover quite a lot of equipment as tanks do a good amount of damage. That does help quite a bit my factorys.
Soft Attack and Hard attack -> I Traded 100 Hard attack for +100 Soft attack. With the main objetive being pushing infantary i don´t regret that trade.
AA -> i have AA you don´t. Not much to talk about this.
Defense -> 304 vs 417. Both values still too low to deal with a 500+ Hard attack from a tank on defense. The difference completely comes from the mechanized.
Breaktrough -> 1340 vs 1511. And you have more tank batallions.
So the difference is not coming from anything "magical" im using. IF i used your division i would get close to 2100 breaktrough. (And thats indeed a total overkill lol).
That means you're likely going Mobile infantary instead of normal Blitzkrieg. (again another difference in how we aproach the problem).
Armor and piercing -> We both have more than enough armor. (71 was without porsche manufacturer and upgrades on armor).
And both can easily pierce each other.
Even the heavy tank is vulnerable if i place a few extra points in the TD and remove maybe 1 company. (As i would see you're using heavy and that does demand changes as im expecting to fight mediums).
I see no point for Radio company when you're already have a passive 11% reinforcement.
You have a 50% chance of reinforcing a battle in the first 5 hours at 11%
At best you can get is 50% after 4 hours with company 39. (as you're not ahead of time).
better spend that company with something else.
The real advantage of your division is Hardness.
But that hardness come from the Mechanized, not because you're making any revolution to the divisions me or simon posted.
and you're paying the price for it as your division is by far the most expensive of all.
Its a good division. but does have its drawbacks and its the quality vs quantity.
While Mobile is a division that demands better technology compared to other majors.
Its too easy to go overkill and sacrifice in other areas that can cost the game.
PS: Your allies in your game really don´t liking donating planes to the USSR right?
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