'Golden Obligations' should be a default function for everyone instead of a perk

[DissentKindly]

Let's say I have a character that is really into Intrigue or Martial, and they keep tabs on other people to find out their secrets, which was probably common in that era.

I don't see why this master spy or general should have to mess with managing his realm for a year or two just to be able to point people's secrets at them and say "give me some cash or this gets out".

Seriously, having to switch the focus to stewardship for years just to get that one perk to have the ability to ask for money when blackmailing is pretty annoying, especially when looking for a lot of cash.

Should the amount you get be capped to lower than average and have the perk increase the amount of money you get to normal? Should the perk be replaced entirely? maybe, that's another discussion, but either way, my point still stands.

Thanks.

 

[fodazd]

Golden Obligations is currently the only perk I pick the stewardship lifestyle for. If you could demand payment without the perk for half the gold or something, I would probably never pick the stewardship lifestyle. To me, this is an indication that Golden Obligations is probably too strong, and/or the rest of the stewardship lifestyle perks are too weak.

 

[DukeLeto42]

Golden Obligations is currently the only perk I pick the stewardship lifestyle for. If you could demand payment without the perk for half the gold or something, I would probably never pick the stewardship lifestyle. To me, this is an indication that Golden Obligations is probably too strong, and/or the rest of the stewardship lifestyle perks are too weak.

Really? I love Stewardship, especially the tree that makes building affordable, domain larger, and passively boosts development.

 

[guinea prince]

Selling titles and extorting vassals are practically free gold, sometimes free gold and free dread. But every ruler definitely takes a few years of stewardship to pick up Golden Obligations cuz why would you not squeeze people for their hooks?

 

[Pappus]

These free gold perks all need removal or rework. As long as you still have to do construction you have a need for massive amounts of gold and any character can just go truth is relative & golden obligation & This is my domain and you start cranking out amounts that would normally take you years to acquire.

When you play small rulers like sardinia for example you start the game at about 2-4 gold per month. Just a single golden obligation hook is a years worth of flat income.
My domain adds another 100ish and then you have and the spymaster allowing you to hit bishops or other high targets via find secrets - well it is just too much.

It is so much that within half a generation you can build so many buildings up that your flat income will start rivaling entire kingdoms taking out any sense of going any other route.

Why go martial, when it cannot overcome a 600 vs 1500 early battle, while gold can with mercs or by buildings barracks in all your holdings.
Why go intrigue if you can just force military victory via gold.
Why go diplomacy and so on.

Everything else becomes lackluster in comparison.

 

[DissentKindly]

These free gold perks all need removal or rework. As long as you still have to do construction you have a need for massive amounts of gold and any character can just go truth is relative & golden obligation & This is my domain and you start cranking out amounts that would normally take you years to acquire.

When you play small rulers like sardinia for example you start the game at about 2-4 gold per month. Just a single golden obligation hook is a years worth of flat income.
My domain adds another 100ish and then you have and the spymaster allowing you to hit bishops or other high targets via find secrets - well it is just too much.

It is so much that within half a generation you can build so many buildings up that your flat income will start rivaling entire kingdoms taking out any sense of going any other route.

Why go martial, when it cannot overcome a 600 vs 1500 early battle, while gold can with mercs or by buildings barracks in all your holdings.
Why go intrigue if you can just force military victory via gold.
Why go diplomacy and so on.

Everything else becomes lackluster in comparison.

While you make a good point, there needs to be at least a couple of alternative (non holding related) methods of generating gold (could include, but other than, raiding) .

While you might laugh a bit because I could probably solve my example by optimizing my gameplay (that is to say i'm a noob ), for example, when I try to play the Ireland game, I try to rush the 7\8 counties required to form the kingdom and form it before my (starts at 40) first ruler dies (867 Ulster). This also requires creating 2 duchies first. In some of my runs, I fail this goal because the amount of gold i'm generating is puny, and the sieges don't luck out for me and i only get 10 ransom gold courtiers or other nobodys... Probably missing some other obvious method that I've missed, the only way to get the like 550 gold required before I kick the bucket would be to rush stewardship, and extort and demand my way to it. Otherwise I must either rely on getting good ransoms or die and split the counties which is basically a start over (as raiding is limited because you're too busy trying to unify ireland to conquer that piece of europe to raid from)...

While I support, for example, nerfing Golden so that you don't get as much gold for it (or less gold per target importance level), there needs to be other ways for poor/limited rulers to make more gold than they would from their meager holdings - especially now when sea raiding isn't a thing. While making enough to simply buy the entire mercenary board or upgrade your holdings to rival people two title levels above you sounds absurd, there needs to be some activities to do to squeeze some gold that isn't holding-based.

 

[Pappus]

While you make a good point, there needs to be at least a couple of alternative (non holding related) methods of generating gold (could include, but other than, raiding) .

While you might laugh a bit because I could probably solve my example by optimizing my gameplay (that is to say i'm a noob ), for example, when I try to play the Ireland game, I try to rush the 7\8 counties required to form the kingdom and form it before my (starts at 40) first ruler dies (867 Ulster). This also requires creating 2 duchies first. In some of my runs, I fail this goal because the amount of gold i'm generating is puny, and the sieges don't luck out for me and i only get 10 ransom gold courtiers or other nobodys... Probably missing some other obvious method that I've missed, the only way to get the like 550 gold required before I kick the bucket would be to rush stewardship, and extort and demand my way to it. Otherwise I must either rely on getting good ransoms or die and split the counties which is basically a start over (as raiding is limited because you're too busy trying to unify ireland to conquer that piece of europe to raid from)...

While I support, for example, nerfing Golden so that you don't get as much gold for it (or less gold per target importance level), there needs to be other ways for poor/limited rulers to make more gold than they would from their meager holdings - especially now when sea raiding isn't a thing. While making enough to simply buy the entire mercenary board or upgrade your holdings to rival people two title levels above you sounds absurd, there needs to be some activities to do to squeeze some gold that isn't holding-based.

But that is exactly the thing - no there doesn't need to be a way. Lack of gold is what small realms face. A couple of counties should not magically be able to fund one (or several) of the biggest mercany companies there are and challenge italy/england or whatever head on.

Small countries do not survive by way of money, but by way of politics, alliances and other means.

For your specific ireland problem you can avoid it by accepting that not everything needs to be done within one generation. Grabbing 4-500 gold for 2 titles isn't that much anyhow you can simply focus on making prisoners.

Dublin I cleared straight away by putting the dude with his 10k army into prison right after I declared war and I picked one ally in the south and then we went ham on everything surrounding. A few years in you are holding capped and ireland is yours in all but name since wars are so mathematically. Enemy has 800 and you have 1000? You win., which is why mercenaries and gold are so strong.

 

[JtW]

golden obligation should be a finisher, probably

 

[DissentKindly]

But that is exactly the thing - no there doesn't need to be a way. Lack of gold is what small realms face. A couple of counties should not magically be able to fund one (or several) of the biggest mercany companies there are and challenge italy/england or whatever head on.

Small countries do not survive by way of money, but by way of politics, alliances and other means.

For your specific ireland problem you can avoid it by accepting that not everything needs to be done within one generation. Grabbing 4-500 gold for 2 titles isn't that much anyhow you can simply focus on making prisoners.

Dublin I cleared straight away by putting the dude with his 10k army into prison right after I declared war and I picked one ally in the south and then we went ham on everything surrounding. A few years in you are holding capped and ireland is yours in all but name since wars are so mathematically. Enemy has 800 and you have 1000? You win., which is why mercenaries and gold are so strong.

I see your point. I just never thought about it that way (like abducting to get dublin despite the guy having his viking stack). It does seem quite unbalanced to get enough mercs to challenge Italy or something...

 

[cleesan]

Currently I find Golden Obligations overpowered, simply because it suddenly makes ransom for each prisoner jump to 300. So all those counts, mayors, courtiers, children which paid 10-30 (and were the majority of prisoners) now can be sucked dry of their money.

And yeah, with this perk I can make use of all those hooks I randomly get, even without digging for them with a spymaster.

The perk is so strong, and so easy to get I will now be getting it on every character, no matter what their focus is.


And my solution? As others pointed out, the amount people are capable of paying should not be a constant value, but it should be calculated from several factors:
- much like ransoms, the title level of the person. In general, the money from the hooks shouldn't be higher than ransom money, and the perk shouldn't increase the ransom amount
- the severity of the hook (weak - strong), and how the secret related to it is problematic for the person (how their religion sees it for example)
- their current money and income

 

[Swagnificent]

I don't agree it should be a finisher but it should definitely be switched with something like extorting subjects, a much more worthless and double-edged moneymaking scheme

 

[Blk82]

Right now, the amount of gold is too high. You can make more money running a blackmail racket than you make being an actual king.

 

[AngelRay]

and here i was, not liking that golden obligation which bugs my ransom of prisoners ^^.
I don't like stewardship, and especially golden obligations which feel a bit cheasy.
As it is, it feels like a finisher and i would agree that "asking money vs hook" shold be default for everyone. Golden obligation should just let you ask either more money or ask to higher ranked persons. And obvisouly the "default ask money" should give around 1-10. Not 10-300.