Golden Horde and Il Khan too powerful

[ArmchairGeneral]

Because of their unified nature and because they are not forced to vassalize their nation, these two powers can easily conquer their neighbors. I came in contact with the Golden Horde as King of the Germans after they came knocking on Germany's door. They had already swallowed up all their orthodox neighbors and had immense power. Because they never make peace treaties I was forced to fight a ten year war of extermination with them.

Now, after terminating the Golden Horde, I am engaged in a war with the Il Khan of Persia, in a similar situation, where I am the only thing between Europe and Islam. We all like a challenge but, these two nations are so powerful that your only option is to fight them. Not to mention, I now have to defend all of my vassals in the Slavic areas, whom I am sure would rather not be ruled by either the Germans or the Mongols/Turks.

Perhaps the way fighting takes place between Christians and Muslims should be changed. I know these two states should face the same penalties that any other Christian nation would face.

 

[unmerged(24890)]

I`m not sure, but isn`t it realistic to get kicked by Mongols?

 

[Spruce]

in my game, the mongols got ass kicked by 2 muslim states (one of them the Seljuk turks),

so if the heathens can do it - there's at least a chance to defeat them,

1.02 mongols were a bit too powerful, but 1.03 could be the rigt balance, (see also events for different game each time),

 

[Jasmo]

I still maintain there is a very serious problem with lack of appropriate terrain effects/attrition for mongols. In grasslands they were self sustaining and virtually unstoppable but once they move out of grasslands their mounted troops should face extremely high attrition. The mongol horde was literally a massive horde of grazing animals unlike anything found in europe or asia. ( comparable to the undepleted herds of buffalo in north america. ) It could not be maintained by supply chain. We are talking ten or even tens of thousands of riders each with 3 or 4 mounts plus draft animals. This is in no way comparable to the few dozens or at most a couple hundred knights a european army would field. In forest, deserts, mountains, etc there simply was not enough grazing to support herds of 50,000 to 100,000 animals outside the open grasslands. In areas where they expanded beyond grasslands (i.e. china) they did so by taking over local forces and would, in the game, lose their horse archers.

 

[Jayavarman]

They are way powerful in my game. I played the 1300s scenario and when I took a look around as Roman emperor, both mongol empires had united and were rampaging through Germany. I intervened and so far it is switching back and forth between them and me in northern and eastern Europe. While I fight them in Germany, however, they have mostly overrun the East, Scandinavia, and Hungary. What pisses me off that the Mongols have even declared war on the Pontiff and the rest of Europe does not lift a finger. Must the Orthodox always have to save the Catholics?!

 

[unmerged(5822)]

I still maintain there is a very serious problem with lack of appropriate terrain effects/attrition for mongols. In grasslands they were self sustaining and virtually unstoppable but once they move out of grasslands their mounted troops should face extremely high attrition. The mongol horde was literally a massive horde of grazing animals unlike anything found in europe or asia. ( comparable to the undepleted herds of buffalo in north america. ) It could not be maintained by supply chain. We are talking ten or even tens of thousands of riders each with 3 or 4 mounts plus draft animals. This is in no way comparable to the few dozens or at most a couple hundred knights a european army would field. In forest, deserts, mountains, etc there simply was not enough grazing to support herds of 50,000 to 100,000 animals outside the open grasslands. In areas where they expanded beyond grasslands (i.e. china) they did so by taking over local forces and would, in the game, lose their horse archers.

Sounds rather reasonable...

 

[Spruce]

Mongols were quite realistic and pragmatic and when they felt tired or their horses were tired and hungry - they went for plains to rest out the soldiers and horses,

 

[Talmonious]

I think one of the major problems with the mongols is that they stink at raiding. The mongols should send out multiple armies and just rampage in different directions. Unfortunately, in my experiences with them, they usually mass their armies in about 2 stacks and go to work. I'm sure I could wipe out Europe too if I had two stacks of troops with 75,000 to 100,000 horsemen who only manage to lose like 20 people to attrition from a whole huge stack.

 

[unmerged(24542)]

Even if the player wins, it ruins the game because after victorious war with Mongols player controls half of map. Maybe somebody likes this, but I don't. It is not fun to be _forced_ to conquer half of Europe.

 

[unmerged(5822)]

Even if the player wins, it ruins the game because after victorious war with Mongols player controls half of map. Maybe somebody likes this, but I don't. It is not fun to be _forced_ to conquer half of Europe.

This, IMO, is the biggest problem with the Mongols. You either have to conquer them or eventually be conquered yourself. There is no sort of middle ground there, while that is what the typical outcome should be (though big variations in how far they expand, depending on the strength of the resistance they meet on their way, should take place).

 

[unmerged(1923)]

This, IMO, is the biggest problem with the Mongols. You either have to conquer them or eventually be conquered yourself. There is no sort of middle ground there, while that is what the typical outcome should be (though big variations in how far they expand, depending on the strength of the resistance they meet on their way, should take place).

I think this is very much related to the AI doesn't crusade stuff. After all, if you smash the mongol armies, shouldn't the european vultures come a'callin?

 

[Woreczko]

Well, IF there was an option to force vassalize and Mongols did use it (as they did in Ruthenia), than the problem should be solved

 

[Peregrine]

Because they never make peace treaties I was forced to fight a ten year war of extermination with them.

They make peace treaties, I see them doing it all the time, and in my game I have been at peace with the Golden Horde for 15 years after they offered peace after our last war.

 

[unmerged(32270)]

Seems to boil down to AI, from what you're saying. Correct me, of course, if I'm wrong.

 

[Brownbeard]

i simply use the mongols to wipe out russian princes, then i intervene, wipe them out, and im king of all of russia...

 

[beezneez]

in my current game, i cant see how they can be defeated. even when i win battles against their gigantic stacks that suffer NO attrition, i lose thousands of men in combat to their hundreds. then, while they are retreating out of my province, i have to pray it isn't at the end of the month or a very long retreat out, because i've had as high as 75% attrition while they were retreating and they suffer none. of course my army had been virtually annihilated not in combat, but while the mongols retreat. i love the game, but the mongols as they are now ruin the game for me.

 

[unmerged(10564)]

A combined attack of half western europe has dfeated completely the Il Khanate. The Golden Horde should be next, but my vassals have no men, my lands have been pillaged and the mongols have 92 provinces with lots of soldiers...

 

[ArmchairGeneral]

I`m not sure, but isn`t it realistic to get kicked by Mongols?

I,m not getting kicked by the moslems, it is just a long and unrealistic war. I conquer all of their territories, yet they make no offer of peace. They will not even except a white peace.

Of course this is not the norm among all the moslems, just the Golden Horde and the Il Khan.

What ends up happening is that I, as Germany become the ruler of all Europe. I don't think this was intended in the original model.

 

[ArmchairGeneral]

They are way powerful in my game. I played the 1300s scenario and when I took a look around as Roman emperor, both mongol empires had united and were rampaging through Germany. I intervened and so far it is switching back and forth between them and me in northern and eastern Europe. While I fight them in Germany, however, they have mostly overrun the East, Scandinavia, and Hungary. What pisses me off that the Mongols have even declared war on the Pontiff and the rest of Europe does not lift a finger. Must the Orthodox always have to save the Catholics?!

The war that I fought with the Golden Horde was so long that eventually all of Europe was involved. I got all my vassels involved in the crusade by giving them land next to the mongols. This guarenteed their full attention in the conflict, which allowed me to slowly exhaust the Muslim resources.

 

[unmerged(26782)]

You realize that they are not just some muslim country in the east, the yare the successors of the Mongol Empire, The Greatest Empire Ever? Mongols conquered China, Central Asia, Russian and then a little more!